Goldhagen's 'Hitler's Willing Executioners'

[comrade seinfeld]

At the present time I am reading Goldhagen's Hitler's Willing Executioners, although I am only now up to the section where he deals with what he calls the death marches, which should cast some light on the Holocaust.

Even though I am a very skeptical person, I was quite shocked at what Goldhagen had to say about what were the apparent Nazi atrocities involving the role of the Order Police in the Soviet Union and the fate of the Jews in what were regarded as the work camps -- Goldhagen does not have much to say about what were regarded as the death camps such as Auschwitz, but simply accepts them as a fact. Certainly, someone who has never studied the Holocaust before, and had only read Goldhagen's book, would be unlikely to give any consideration to a revisionist perspective on the Holocaust. Certainly Goldhagen has given me pause for thought, and I will have to do a Google search on what he has to say, if I am to get things in perspective.

Most of Goldhagen's book is concerned with what are the alleged atrocities of the Nazis concerning the Jews within the context of the conventional exterminationist perspective on the Holocaust. I would think, however, that all of the atrocities he mentions are really open to doubt, as, according to the references in his book, these atrocities have been already recounted in war crimes trials, and we can't help but be skeptical about what Holocaust eyewitnesses have had to say. As I have said, I am a Holocaust agnostic, which means that I am quite prepared to take seriously what avowed revisionists have had to say, although I am quite prepared to accept the conventional account of the Holocaust, if it can be conclusively demonstrated -- I am inclined to think that it will be impossible to ever conclusively demonstate the validity of either perspective since the subject is so ideologically charged.

Reading Goldhagen's book, however, what struck me as most likely to cast doubt upon what he has to say is the absolutely abject acquiescence of the Jews, especially male adults, in their alleged destruction, assuming that they mostly would have realised it was intended to exterminate them if the conventional account is valid. There are some photos where Jews are forced by the Germans to do things like scrub the footpath with toothbrushes, which is fair enough, if it means that one is going to be killed unless one demeans oneself momentarily; however, when it comes to a situation where one is expected to line up so the the Nazis can neatly fit one into a mass grave (the sardine technique!), then surely any normal person will fight for one's life, no matter what the consequences, especially since the alleged Jewish victims always outnumbered their Nazi murderers in most situations described in Goldhagens book. Also, as far as the scenes described in the so-called work camps, where Nazi psychopaths are able to act out their fantasies with impunity concerning their Jewish prisoners, then, quite apart from the fact that surely no normal person would not revolt irrespective of the likely consequences, I thought that checks were put on how the Nazi warders could act towards the Jewish inmates, especially where Jewish labour was essential to the German war effort. (Also, on page 407 there is the apparently fake atrocity photograph, which most revisionists would be familiar with!)

I would think that it would be useful to have a thread dealing comprehensively with Goldhagen's book, since it is surely a seminal text as far as an anti-revisionist text is concerned. Certainly Goldhagen's book has left me rather confused, so that I would be interested to hear what the experts have to say about it, as surely anyone seriously concerned about the Holocaust would be likely to have read it.

[comrade seinfeld]

One thing I forgot to mention in my original post in this thread was in relation to what Goldhagen had to say in relation to the role of the Order Police in the Soviet Union. Goldhagen gives the impression that the Einsatzgruppen and the Order Police, as well as other Nazi organisations (such as their ethnic allies), had little to do but seek out Jews to exterminate. I was always under the impression, however, that there was a fierce partisan resistance to the Nazis behind the front lines, which I remember reading was one of the blooodiest conflicts in history. Was it not the case that Nazi organisations such as the Order Police were primarily concerned with fighting the partisans, and, if it was the case that they tended to target Jews, wasn't that in accordance with the Nazi ideology that all Jews were inherently Communists? And, surely if it was the case that a disproportionate number of Jews were being targeted, would it not be the case that they would have the brains to make themselves scarce by retreating along with the Soviets, or at least seeking help from the partisans to escape behind the front lines.

Isn't the above correct, and can someone give a reference for the role of the Soviet partisans -- either a book or somewhere on the internet?

[Hannover]

Oh boy, you got so many topics going here that it's hard to know where to start, hence the posting guidelines.
To the uninitiated it looks compelling...until one starts to look for substantiation, which will not be forthcoming in the manner which supports the '6,000,000, & gas chambers'

one of your examples:
photo of a Jew scrubbing the sidewalk seems odd only because of the caption which may read something like 'Jew being brutally forced to scrub or he will be killed'. In fact the guy could have been a convicted criminal being punished, but the caption leads the reader to believe otherwise.

In general, Goldhagen's shallow claims are not evidence, he merely makes assertions without rational scrutiny. In fact that is the so called "holocaust" in a nutshell...a lot of absurd assertions but no credible evidence. False accusations, regardless of how many are still false.

It says a lot about the flimsiness of the story by the fact that Jews insist upon laws to prevent discussion of the points. This discussiion we're having now is illegal in many counreies throughout Europe.


- Hannover

[Temporary on hold]

As a starter you owe it to yourself to read "A Nation on Trial" by Norman Finkelstein and Ruth Bettina Birn. Henry Holt 1998. It is only one, but perhaps the best, of the exposures of Goldhagen's fraudulent scholarship. Goldhagen's book has been roundly criticized by many others

[Hannover]

Daniel Goldhagen has this thing about lying. Not only does he lie about the '6,000,000 & gas chambers', but in his
book, 'Hitler's Willing Executioners', he fraudulently promotes a picture that many have seen before; the alleged German soldier aiming his rifle point blank at a woman holding a child, see link below.

There you will see the Goldhagen version and the uncropped version we have not previously been permitted to see.
Not only does the woman and child appear to have been pasted on; but seeing the original, uncropped background
makes the alteration all the more apparent.

This photo is also displayed at the Wiesenthal Center, not surprising from them.

You will be arrested in many countries for exposing this fraud.

- vH

http://www.codoh.com/daspiktur.html