Official death numbers?

[Jurgen]

Hello everyone,

I'm sorry if this is a stupid question but I am finding it difficult to find an accurate figure for the official number of people killed, or Jews killed in the Holocaust. I know it's been downgraded to 1.1 to 1.5 million, Majdanek down to 59000.

But what of the other camps? Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec and others? Have their numbers also dropped?

When I go to official sources, ushmm etc, I see the standard 6million, which doesn't make sense to me.

What is the official death toll now for all. Camps combined?

Thanks.

[borjastick]

Careful Jurgen you might just rock the boat, the holocaust boat. It's called the Good Ship Holocaust and currently has a number of holes due to a lack of maintenance over the years. It's an old ship now and rather unstable. If you rock it too hard it just might sink...

You'll notice that the camps where there are significant structural remains (Auschwitz, Majdanek) the numbers have been reduced drastically over the years. This is because real historical data and research have taken place.

In the make believe camps where nothing exists (Treblinka, Sobibor) the numbers have remained the same because they were made up in the beginning and nothing can be done to verify them.

Treblinka remains at about 800,000 but of course no mass graves, no witness statements bear this out. The science, if allowed free, would destroy these claims.

As for the total one can only really go by the Red Cross figures, in my opinion - around 272,000.

[Jurgen]

Thanks borjastick.

So the "official" total could range from around 2 million Jews + extras?

The reason I am trying to get an "official" total is go to someone that has recently released a movie/docs, and he uses the holocaust to make a point, a VB point which I agree with, but his use of the Nazis and the holocaust annoys me greatly. Particularly how he uses the old "12 million were killed including six million Jews".....
It's not even six million any more!! I reasonably respect this person, so just want to go to him with some facts a I am sure he doesn't want to make his point with a lie.

[borjastick]

Officially it still remains six million jews deliberately and systematically murdered by Germany. That is a total that apparently one cannot tamper with or even discuss. The 12m figure is make believe and must come from the idea that 11 million people were murdered in the holocaust which is 6m jews and 5m others. No one with even half a brain which is applied to the study of the holocaust can justify or believe the 11m figure. I mean where are the remains, mass graves etc?

When you allow for the known locations of the camps where the figures of deaths from starvation, typhus etc are not disputed, such as Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau and the other key locations in Germany these come to about 150,000 so where are the other 10,850,000? It is patently completely bonkers to claim that sort of death toll without being able to identify where these poor souls are buried, in total.

[Rogal Dorn]

Where are the remains? The mass graves?

Good question. For starters, here's some pictures:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... -nazi.html

I believe the 11 million figure includes 3 million Soviet prisoner of war deaths in the Reich. They're added to the holocaust death toll.

I believe Lucy Dawidowicz compiled a detailed list of people killed per country and even listed their pre-war populations based on census data. For instance, there were 3 Million Jews in Poland alone. What's that? Lucy Dawidowicz is a poet and not a real historian because she does not hold a degree in history? When by that logic neither is David Irving a historian.

A detailed list of (mainstream) death toll approximations for each camp is as follows:

Auschwitz I "Stammlager" + Auschwitz II "Birkenau" + Auschwitz III "Monowitz": 1.1 million
Treblinka: 800k in Treblinka
Sobibor: 167k
Chelmno/Kulmhof: 200k
Majdanek: 80k
Belzec: 500k
Maly-Trostenets: 60k

total: 2.9 million people killed in extermination camps (not including Jasenovac also classified as such)

If you add in the victims of all other concentration camps where no large scale (50k and more) gassings took place, and people mostly died out of other causes like disease, attrition and firing squads for disobeying orders, I'd say you'd get another 900,000 or so:

Dachau (41,500),
Mauthausen-Gusen (100,000),
Janowska (100,000)
Buchenwald (56,000),
Theresienstadt (33,000),
Bergen-Belsen (52,000),
Sachsenhausen (30,000),
Stutthof (85,000),
Neuengamme (60,000),
Ravensbrück (30,000),
Flossenburg (30,000),
Natzweiler-Struthof (22,000),
Ebensee (20,000)
Grossrosen (40,000)
Jasenovac (80,000)
Jadovno (68,000)
Sajmiste (15,000)
Soldau (13,000)
Plaszow (8000)
Klooga (2000)
Vaivara (2500)
Lebrechtsdorf-Potulitz/Potulice (1,291)
Vught/Herzogensbusch (749)

So we're sitting at around 3.8 million.

Then you have Aktion T4, where mentally sick and disabled people were killed in Nazi hospitals:

Hartheim (30,000)
Grafeneck (9,839)
Brandenburg (9,772)
Bernburg (8,601)
Sonnenstein (13,720)
Hadamar (10,072)

We're now at around 3.88 million

Remember the holocaust death toll is 11 million civilians, of which 6 million are jews. So the remaining 7.1 million were all killed out in the field...

The Warsaw Ghetto uprising/clearing (13,000) and Babi Yar + Rumbula massacre + Ponary massacre + Transnistrian camps + Bronnaja Gora and related mass shootings (33,000 + 27,500 + 100,000 + 50,000 + 250,000) are things we learn about, but no effort is taken to explain the remaining 6.55 million victims. On one hand, we have of course the "nazi death marches" detainees were subjected to, which happened as a result of shifting fronts and the nazis losing control over territories and the camps therein, in the east (for which no official figure is given, correct me if I am wrong). And then we have Soviet prisoners of war, who are often also added to the holocaust. And the people who already died in the railcars due to cramped conditions (again, no figure) and so on, before arriving at the camps. We are told that around 1.5 million people were killed by the Einsatzgruppen operating out in the field.

Still, millions are amiss.

[borjastick]

Rogal Dorn said this:

Auschwitz I "Stammlager" + Auschwitz II "Birkenau" + Auschwitz III "Monowitz": 1.1 million (272k max including mainly deaths by typhus)
Treblinka: 800k in Treblinka (no proofs whatsoever)
Sobibor: 167k (???? dodgy research currently ongoing)
Chelmno/Kulmhof: 200k (proof please)
Majdanek: 80k (amazing receding death toll, from initial 1.8m claimed)
Belzec: 500k (nothing to investigate, no bodies no proof)
Maly-Trostenets: 60k (?)

Worth noting that none of the above figures have been proven at all, in any meaningful way acceptable by standards of normal proof. My figures in brackets.

Then this:
Dachau (41,500),
Mauthausen-Gusen (100,000),
Janowska (100,000)
Buchenwald (56,000),
Theresienstadt (33,000),
Bergen-Belsen (52,000),
Sachsenhausen (30,000),
Stutthof (85,000),
Neuengamme (60,000),
Ravensbrück (30,000),
Flossenburg (30,000),
Natzweiler-Struthof (22,000),
Ebensee (20,000)
Grossrosen (40,000)
Jasenovac (80,000)
Jadovno (68,000)
Sajmiste (15,000)
Soldau (13,000)
Plaszow (8000)
Klooga (2000)
Vaivara (2500)
Lebrechtsdorf-Potulitz/Potulice (1,291)
Vught/Herzogensbusch (749)

Most of this list is made up of speculative figures and those generally accepted as deaths by typhus and thus not part of the deliberate industrial murder of all jews as claimed.

He then starts banging on about the non existent death claims of a non existent even at Babi Yar.

As for the photographic proof claimed at the website - http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... -nazi.html

This is full of pictures of dead people from the war period. No proof they were all or partly jewish, there was a war on and people got shot, hanged, killed for partisan actions that were by today's standards illegal but not by the standards of the day. I would also add that many of the pictures are captioned as though they are all unique events yet are reproduced and from different angles of the same thing. In any case the total body count is but a few hundred or maybe a couple of thousand.

So I refute pretty much everything and am still looking for the 10.8m missing. Oh the claim that that 11m figure must include Russian POWs is fantasy.

[Jurgen]

Thanks everyone.

I found the link to "holocaust controversies" to be very confusing.

Auschwitz-Birkenau: One photo of Birkenau. A deep pit containing maybe 70 bodies.

Treblinka: Four photos. 2x "ash" piles...could be anything. 1x photo with at least two skulls , maybe 3, and 20 or so bones. 1x Jews loading bodies onto a wagon "apparently in the Treblinka camp".

Belzec: 1x photo of concrete bunker roof with two skulls and again, maybe two skeletons worth of bones.

Sobibor: Zero photos.

Majdanek: 11 photos. These actually show a lot of human remains, and is they type of pictures I would also expect to see at the "Famous Four" (Auschwitz-Birkenau, Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor".

The rest are photos (the types I would expect to see) from all over the show, but none at the major camps where the vast bulk of alleged exterminations occurred.


I find all of this extremely frustrating as I would prefer to include in my letter to this chap evidential links. I really dislike non referenced claims.

Auschwitz is the easiest, just reference the plaque, then maybe Majdanek? 1.7 down to 78,000....

Anyway, I shall continue.....

[Hektor]

Holocaust Controversies will simply refer to other "sites", books, movies for more evidence.

Overall all that is referenced is mostly pictures of people that died mostly at the end of the war due to health issues.... and under-supply, which was however the result of Allied warfare tactics. There is also self-incriminating documentary evidence indicating that Allied agents distributed pathogens in Axis controlled territory. This covert ops biological warfare is an aspect of world war two that didn't really get much attention up to now.

[Jurgen]

hrm. How many Jews survived?

[Jurgen]

Not that I trust this source.....but it is "official"...

Chelmno: Only two Jews survived.

Belzec: Two Jews survived - Rudolf Rader and Haim Hirshman.

Treblinka: Camp was razed on August 2, 1943. About 70 prisoners survived the war.

Sobibor: Approximately 50-70 Jews survived.

Majdanek: Liberated in July 1944. Approximately 12,000 prisoners greeted their liberators, but no Jews survived the camp.

Auschwitz: Liberated in January 1945. Only 1,200 people were still alive (additional 5,800 in Birkenau, 650 in Monowitz).

Sources: Ephraim Kaye, Desecraters of Memory: Confronting Holocaust Denial, Jerusalem: Yad Vashem, 1997, pp. 45-46.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... vors2.html

So thats all of 17794....

But that number doesnt come very close to the number of survivor interview videos that Spielberg recorded.

According to his site:

52,000 survivor testimonies videotaped by USC Shoah Foundation Institute

http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/pressroo ... rettyPhoto

Unless I am misunderstanding what I am reading?

[Jurgen]

Another question:

Going by the orthodox narrative from news papers, I see:

1890-1906 in Russia - six million Jews facing "systematic and murderous extermination".

1919 in Ukraine and Poland - six million Jews "received notice through action and word that they are going to be completely exterminated"

1933-1945 - Of course we have the six million Jews gassed by the Nazis.

That makes 18 million Jews in total? But are the Nazis killed Jews, the same six million that were killed (or under threat of being killed) in the Ukraine and Poland in 1919? Making it only 12 million killed/persecuted since 1890? (and why is it only the German killed Jews that get any recognition???)

Sweet Lord in Heaven above my brain is going to explode!

[Hektor]

....
So thats all of 17794....

But that number doesnt come very close to the number of survivor interview videos that Spielberg recorded.

According to his site:

52,000 survivor testimonies videotaped by USC Shoah Foundation Institute

http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/pressroo ... rettyPhoto

Unless I am misunderstanding what I am reading?

They count every Jew that lived in a country ever controlled or occupied by the Axis as "Holocaust Survivor".
That want compute all the Jewish dudes having camp tattoos tough.

[ginger]

Rogal Dorn - what about the estimates of the Red Cross? - at most 135,000 for Auschwitz?

[Hektor]

hrm. How many Jews survived?

There were millions of applications for reparations ("Wiedergutmachung"). Not sure what the actual official number was, but it was about 4 to 5 million filed claims when I last read an article on this.

Perhaps someone has a more recent summary on this?

[TLSMS93]

The question is old but here we go

The official number of deaths today in the camps is 4.3 million people, not counting the so-called “Holocaust of bullets” on the eastern front, which according to orthodoxy is estimated at 1.5 or 1.7 million deaths. Were they all Jews? No way. Where were the 5 million non-Jews killed who allege they were also part of the genocide? If they were not cremated in the camps there must be mass graves somewhere like Poland as it is said that 3 million ethnic Poles were killed, if these were killed in the camps then "only" 1.3 million Jews could have been killed, perhaps less since a small % would be from other nationalities like gypsies, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, political prisoners, let's say 90% would be Jews, so little more than a million Jews could have died in these camps, however another problem arises, where Did the millions of captured Soviets die? In conventional prisons that were already crowded? It is known that more than 1 million Soviets survived German captivity and feared returning to the USSR that did not recognize Soviet prisoners, so they were inside the Reich and not in makeshift prisons in the USSR, where these 3.5 million people died and where are they incorporated in numbers?

So to answer your question, today it's at 4.3 million, not including Jasenovac which wasn't operated by Germans and Maly and ghettos like Warsaw.