Kittel on Mass Murders in the East

[Hebden]

Mr. Irving has once again produced the goods with this C. S. D. I. C. transcript :

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/interrogat ... 1086C.html

It must be said that the account of Lt. General Kittel displays a high degree of verisimilitude. In time it will probably feature in Mr. Irving's planned book Overheard - The Secret Conversations of WW II's Top Enemy Prisoners.

[Hannover]

This would seem to link up nicely with the bogus Bruns 'document' that Irving considers credible. No wonder the poor man lost to idiots in court.

see:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=15

- Hannover

[Hebden]

Here is what the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust has to say about the murders in Dvinsk:

The First Wave of Murder

(Latv., Daugavpils; Ger., Dunaburg), city in southeast Latvia, on the Western Dvina (Daugava) River. In 1935 Dvinsk had a Jewish population of 11,116, out of a total of 45,160. In June 1940, along with the rest of Latvia, it was incorporated into the Soviet Union; on June 26, 1941, the Germans occupied the city.
At some point between June 29 and July 2, all the Jewish males aged sixteen to sixty were arrested, tortured, and made to perform forced labor. After a week the Germans began killing them and by July 16, 1,150 had been murdered. Except for a few physicians and skilled workers, the rest soon suffered the same fate. Those Jews who were not arrested, had their property confiscated, were evicted from their homes, were seized for forced labor, and in mid-July were ordered to wear the Jewish Badge. Latvian police and their helpers burned down all but two synagogues, sometimes with Jews in them.


Ghetto and Judenrat

During the last week of July, the Jews were put into a ghetto in the Latvian cavalry barracks on the banks of the Dvina, north of the city. The conditions were appalling. A few days later, thousands of Jews from the neighboring towns of Griva, Kraslava, Preili, Viski, and Livani, were crowded into the ghetto, bringing its population to roughly 16,000. A Judenrat was set up and tried to cope with the situation.

The Second Wave of Murders

Having set up the ghetto, the Germans embarked upon the systematic murder of its population, with the assistance of the Latvian auxiliary police. According to German records, between July 13 and August 21, 1941, 9,012 Jews were killed, mostly in the Pogulanka Forest; 7,000 Jews were left in the ghetto. From November 7 to 9, 1941 between 3,000 and 5,000 Jews were killed at Pogulanka. "Essential" workers, but not their families, were spared for the time being. Later that month, the ghetto was put under quarantine because of a typhus epidemic. Sealed for four months, the Jews suffered from starvation, and more people died.

The report of 1,150 Jews killed by July 6 comes from OSR 24:

http://www.einsatzgruppenarchives.com/osr24.html

The Soviet report on the crimes committed by the German-Fascist invaders in the Latvian Soviet Socialist Republic has this:

In Daugavpils (Dvinsk) the Hitlerites blew up the People's Club, the railway station, the rolling-stock repair shops, the railway depot and the power-station; destroyed 40 factories attached to local industries, the City Library with all its books; demolished 32 schools, 4 hotels, 15 bath-houses, telephone and telegraph lines, and 2,896 dwelling-houses. [...]

On August 22, 1941, in the small town of Aglon, mentally diseased persons from Daugavpils Psychiatric Hospital were shot - about 700 adults and 60 children, including 20 healthy children who had been temporarily transferred to the hospital building from a children's home. [...]

In Daugavpils the Germans daily shot hundreds of Soviet citizens from the prisons and camps. On the territory of the "Zolotaya Gorks", between the village of Pogulyanka and the country house of Budrevich, near the prison, they shot over 43,000 men, women and children.

[Hannover]

Ok, this is certainly old news. Here you go posting Jewish/Zionist and Communist 'documents' for which there is no evidence to support after (in another thread) you labeled the original numbers alleged at Auschwitz as "Soviet propaganda"; but now you apparently find Communist sources to be reliable.

What, the "Encyclopedia of the Holocaust"? Oh please, you might as well post "facts" from the shysters at the Wiesenthal Center. Both are in the 'holocau$t' business and are hardly credible.

I'm sorry, but presenting unsubstantiated text will get you little. To think that these curiously acquired 'conversations' which could easily have been manufactured to fit the existing propaganda and storyline are legitimate is to ignore the lack evidence in support of them.
I also noticed you ignored my example of the absurdity of the Bruns 'conversation'.

And, in cutting to the chase, as Tom Moran says: '2 guys with shovels could settle the matter'.

- Hannover

[Sailor]

It must be said that the account of Lt. General Kittel displays a high degree of verisimilitude.

What specifically of this story seems to you to be be so truthful?

[Sailor]

This would seem to link up nicely with the bogus Bruns 'document' that Irving considers credible.

It certainly does! It seems that those British have their peculiar ways to get information out of their prisoners.

[Sailor]

This is what Irving said during the Zündel Trial:

“Certain numbers for certain specific tragedies. One episode outside Dvinsk, being on the road to Dvinsk being in November 1941, certainly there was an episode there ...a mass grave had been dug and a mass execution...of unidentified civilians was being carried out by unidentified people. It was witnessed by one German Major General Walter Bruns.”

So it was not Kittel, but rather Bruns? At another place Irving mentioned that Bruns witnessed a massacre in SKIOTAWA , and not Dvinsk. What is it now?

And now Faurisson about Irving:

“I am now going to reproduce in its entirety a passage in which Irving tried to define his position. I emphasize the words in it which seem to me especially worthy of note -- either because they frankly show the lack of certainty of the author, or because they call for explanations that are not forthcoming; from this comes the general impression that David Irving is making some accusations which are very serious, and yet about which he himself is not entirely sure, at least at this time. He says, as a matter of fact:
(p. 42): I would say I am satisfied in my own mind that in various locations [?],Nazi criminals [?] acting probably [?] without direct [?]orders from above, did carry out liquidations of groups [?] of people including Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, mentally incurable people and the rest. I am quite plain about that in my own mind. I can't prove it, I haven't got into that, I haven't investigated that particular aspect of history but from the documents I've seen, I've got the kind of gut feeling which suggests to me that that is probably accurate.”

After a week the Germans began killing them and by July 16, 1,150 had been murdered
[…]
Having set up the ghetto, the Germans embarked upon the systematic murder of its population, with the assistance of the Latvian auxiliary police. According to German records, between July 13 and August 21, 1941, 9,012 Jews were killed, mostly in the Pogulanka Forest; 7,000 Jews were left in the ghetto. From November 7 to 9, 1941 between 3,000 and 5,000 Jews were killed at Pogulanka.

Did they find any mass graves in those locations quoted or was no one interested to look?
Who is the author of that chapter in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust and what sources did he use about these massacres?

[Hebden]

This would seem to link up nicely with the bogus Bruns 'document' that Irving considers credible.

It certainly does! It seems that those British have their peculiar ways to get information out of their prisoners.

Mr. Sailor, whilst your desire to defend the honour of your father's generation is commendable, you are slipping ever lower in our estimation. By any standards, these CSDIC transcripts qualify as very good evidence. What reason would the British have to manufacture evidence which would be inadmissible in court? To hide it away in the archives for 30 years so it could be discovered by some intrepid David Irving or other?

[Hannover]

After Hebden insults Sailor (Hebden seems to be leaning towards such tactics of late) he goes on to say that these texts "qualify as very good evidence".
But that is only what Hebden says, we think not.

- Hebden produces laughable Communist 'document' text and equally unsupported Zionist self-serving propaganda from a 'holocau$t encyclopedia of all things to support his assertion
- he is unable to produce any physical evidence (which would necessarily exist)
- he ignores the connection with the absurd Bruns 'conversation' of the same origin (see: http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=15 )

- then Hebden asks:

What reason would the British have to manufacture evidence which would be inadmissible in court? To hide it away in the archives for 30 years so it could be discovered by some intrepid David Irving or other?

While ignoring the fact that forgeries abound in the 'holocau$t' closet.

The very fact that these 'conversations' were not used in court opens the door:

- Perhaps the Brits knew they were concocted, left them alone for the very reasons I have stated. Imagine someone for the defense demanding a forensic investigation of the alleged sites...forget about it.

- These alleged 'conversation' transcripts may not have even existed 30 years ago as is alleged. Any text can be backdated as desired and simply placed in an archive at any time for someone to 'discover' them, who will then tout them as a major find. Presto! Like magic.

And ofcourse, Hebden is really stretching it when he implies that war crimes trials held against the Germans required evidence.

'2 guys with shovels could settle the matter'

Hannover