George Orwell an anti-semite and early adopter of Revisionism???

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borjastick
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George Orwell an anti-semite and early adopter of Revisionism???

Postby borjastick » 1 year 2 months ago (Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:19 am)

I have just started to read 1984 by George Orwell (Eric Arthur Blair). It is one of those novels that we know even if we don't know it, so to speak That's because it has become so often quoted and the essence of Big Brother emanates from it. We see lines quoted from it almost every day and so after a couple of dozen pages I thought I better brush up on my knowledge of the author because it could well be said that some of his best known quotes from the book support Revisionism.

Here's a few quotes, which I readily accept could apply to any number of other political and serious events since it was written in 1949 but are strangely in tune with Revisionist thinking.

‘The past was erased, the erasure was forgotten, the lie became the truth.’

And thus, Orwell has shown exactly how history is written and how reality can be manipulated by those in power. When enough people believe a thing and proclaim it as truth, and nobody has the power to safeguard actual truth, reality becomes moldable.


Or
‘There was truth and there was untruth, and if you clung to the truth even against the whole world, you were not mad.’


I suppose his best and most pertinent line was this...
‘He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past.’

These quotes and more can be read with some context and opinion here - https://www.hypable.com/george-orwell-1 ... ity-trump/

Orwell had fought in the Spanish civil war and had seen some nasty stuff so he was well able to express his thoughts and opinions on those who tell stories for political gain no matter what their cost to truth and decency.

My next thought was this, maybe George Orwell was an anti-semite. Oh yes he was, at least that is the claim made.
It is true: Nowhere in his later writings does Orwell write of Jews as crudely as he did in his very first book − “Down and Out in Paris and London” where, in addition to fantasizing about punching in the face a Paris pawnbroker, a “red-haired Jew, an extraordinarily disagreeable man,” the first thing he notices upon returning to London is in a coffee shop where, “in a corner by himself a Jew, muzzle down in the plate, was guiltily wolfing bacon.”
https://forward.com/culture/160496/was- ... ti-semite/

and...
One of his most able biographers, D.J. Taylor, who has dealt seriously with the issue, quotes journalist Malcolm Muggeridge, who was surprised by the number of Jews who attended Orwell’s funeral, since he thought that he was “at heart strongly anti-Semitic.” Other contemporaries record Orwell, at late stages of his life, remarking to them about the preponderance of Jews working for the Observer newspaper for which he wrote, and indeed in his diaries he refers to the control of Jews over vast swathes of the media.


So my point and question is that perhaps Orwell was an anti-semite and perhaps 1984 in some small way questions the holocaust.

Any thoughts and addition info would be welcomed.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: George Orwell an anti-semite and early adopter of Revisionism???

Postby hermod » 1 year 2 months ago (Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:35 am)

Would an anti-Semite name the leader of the struggle against a tyrannical state (i.e. a chief freedom fighter) 'Emmanuel Goldstein' (molded after the Jew Leon Trotsky)?
"[Austen Chamberlain] has done western civilization a great service by refuting at least one of the slanders against the Germans
because a civilization which leaves war lies unchallenged in an atmosphere of hatred and does not produce courage in its leaders to refute them
is doomed.
"

Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, on the public admission by Britain's Foreign Secretary that the WWI corpse-factory story was false, December 4, 1925

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Re: George Orwell an anti-semite and early adopter of Revisionism???

Postby hermod » 1 year 2 months ago (Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:32 am)

For info, in 1944, George Orwell deplored that the post-WWI publicized debunking of the British biggest wartime propaganda lies ("that four years' orgy of lying and hatred," he said) had made the punitive Versailles Treaty look too harsh and had made the British citizens become very skeptical about atrocity stories (commonly regarded as "synonymous with lies " in the 1920s and 1930s), including the atrocity stories about the German concentration camps. Because of that, Orwell advised a softer treatment of the defeated Germans after WWII. But as we now know, the victorious Soviets and Allies of 1945 opted for another strategy and rather sticked to their wartime propaganda lies (with a very dishonest exploitation of the health disaster ravaging the last operational German concentration camps of the collapsing Third Reich and with highly publicized Soviet-style show trials) in order to make their even harsher treatment of the defeated Germans look like a fair punishment for unparalleled crimes.



















"[Austen Chamberlain] has done western civilization a great service by refuting at least one of the slanders against the Germans
because a civilization which leaves war lies unchallenged in an atmosphere of hatred and does not produce courage in its leaders to refute them
is doomed.
"

Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, on the public admission by Britain's Foreign Secretary that the WWI corpse-factory story was false, December 4, 1925

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Re: George Orwell an anti-semite and early adopter of Revisionism???

Postby EtienneSC » 1 year 2 months ago (Mon Mar 21, 2022 2:56 pm)

borjastick wrote:Any thoughts and addition info would be welcomed.

Orwell was arguably one of the first writers in Britain to express revisionist ideas. In his 1945 Notes on Nationalism, he wrote:
"Indifference to objective truth is encouraged by the sealing-off of one part of the world from another, which makes it harder and harder to discover what is actually happening. There can often be a genuine doubt about the most enormous events. For example, it is impossible to calculate within millions, perhaps even tens of millions, the number of deaths caused by the present war. The calamities that are constantly being reported — battles, massacres, famines, revolutions — tend to inspire in the average person a feeling of unreality. One has no way of verifying the facts, one is not even fully certain that they have happened, and one is always presented with totally different interpretations from different sources. What were the rights and wrongs of the Warsaw rising of August 1944? Is it true about the German gas ovens in Poland? Who was really to blame for the Bengal famine? Probably the truth is discoverable, but the facts will be so dishonestly set forth in almost any newspaper that the ordinary reader can be forgiven either for swallowing lies or failing to form an opinion. The general uncertainty as to what is really happening makes it easier to cling to lunatic beliefs. Since nothing is ever quite proved or disproved, the most unmistakable fact can be impudently denied."
https://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/nationalism/english/e_nat (My emphasis)

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Re: George Orwell an anti-semite and early adopter of Revisionism???

Postby Hektor » 1 month 4 weeks ago (Tue Apr 11, 2023 9:50 am)

EtienneSC wrote:
borjastick wrote:Any thoughts and addition info would be welcomed.

Orwell was arguably one of the first writers in Britain to express revisionist ideas. In his 1945 Notes on Nationalism, he wrote:
"Indifference to objective truth is encouraged by the sealing-off of one part of the world from another, which makes it harder and harder to discover what is actually happening. There can often be a genuine doubt about the most enormous events. For example, it is impossible to calculate within millions, perhaps even tens of millions, the number of deaths caused by the present war. The calamities that are constantly being reported — battles, massacres, famines, revolutions — tend to inspire in the average person a feeling of unreality. One has no way of verifying the facts, one is not even fully certain that they have happened, and one is always presented with totally different interpretations from different sources. What were the rights and wrongs of the Warsaw rising of August 1944? Is it true about the German gas ovens in Poland? Who was really to blame for the Bengal famine? Probably the truth is discoverable, but the facts will be so dishonestly set forth in almost any newspaper that the ordinary reader can be forgiven either for swallowing lies or failing to form an opinion. The general uncertainty as to what is really happening makes it easier to cling to lunatic beliefs. Since nothing is ever quite proved or disproved, the most unmistakable fact can be impudently denied."
https://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/nationalism/english/e_nat (My emphasis)



It also shows that 'gas chambers' where confused with 'crematoria ovens'. So if people see proof of a crematorium, they may assume that it proves the existence and operations of gas chambers. Meanwhile crematoria are actually body disposal of choice during epidemics. It's the most hygienic.

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Re: George Orwell an anti-semite and early adopter of Revisionism???

Postby Reviso » 1 month 3 weeks ago (Thu Apr 13, 2023 1:34 am)

Orwell's passage is ambiguous. If you read the preceding paragraph, you will see that Orwell presents systematic doubt as a means used by "nationalists" to accredit a view of history that absolves them. Now, Orwell may have had ideas behind the head, I don't know.

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Re: George Orwell an anti-semite and early adopter of Revisionism???

Postby Hektor » 1 month 3 weeks ago (Thu Apr 13, 2023 4:08 am)

Reviso wrote:Orwell's passage is ambiguous. If you read the preceding paragraph, you will see that Orwell presents systematic doubt as a means used by "nationalists" to accredit a view of history that absolves them. Now, Orwell may have had ideas behind the head, I don't know.


Indeed he says something like that:
Every nationalist is haunted by the belief that the past can be altered. He spends part of his time in a fantasy world in which things happen as they should — in which, for example, the Spanish Armada was a success or the Russian Revolution was crushed in 1918 — and he will transfer fragments of this world to the history books whenever possible. Much of the propagandist writing of our time amounts to plain forgery. Material facts are suppressed, dates altered, quotations removed from their context and doctored so as to change their meaning. Events which it is felt ought not to have happened are left unmentioned and ultimately denied(6). In 1927 Chiang Kai Shek boiled hundreds of Communists alive, and yet within ten years he had become one of the heroes of the Left. The re-alignment of world politics had brought him into the anti-Fascist camp, and so it was felt that the boiling of the Communists ‘didn't count’, or perhaps had not happened. The primary aim of propaganda is, of course, to influence contemporary opinion, but those who rewrite history do probably believe with part of their minds that they are actually thrusting facts into the past. When one considers the elaborate forgeries that have been committed in order to show that Trotsky did not play a valuable part in the Russian civil war, it is difficult to feel that the people responsible are merely lying. More probably they feel that their own version was what happened in the sight of God, and that one is justified in rearranging the records accordingly.


'Nationalist History' is often an idealized version of history, since they want to use historiography for the purpose of 'teaching the people something' and build a 'positive identity'. So. it may be sanitized at times. But then there is a higher standard of proof for accusations being made. And accusations are often fueled by envy and dislike for opposing and competing figures and groups. That standard has been removed in the case of NS-Germany. And it is being removed for any Western Nation. Accusation serve also as a distraction, there.
What it means is that a 'negative identity' is build, which leads to distancing and disorientation of people. And that may exactly be what is intended by this.
The tactics of a thought-reform program are organized to:

* Destabilize a person's sense of self,
* Get the person to drastically reinterpret his or her life's history and radically alter his or her worldview and accept a new version of reality and causality,
* Develop in the person a dependence on the organization, and thereby turn the person into a deployable agent of the organization.
https://culteducation.com/cults-in-our-midst2.html


If biographic information is attacked, people can defend more easily, since they have memory of those events.
With historical information this is more difficult, since people have no memories of their own or only very selective, subjective memories. The info is in books and people believe based on repetition, reputation, authority.

The attack on history is also more indirect, people try to evade it. It's attack on a collective and that can also be split this way getting one part to attack another part. With the Germans the ordinary people were turned against the NSDAP. The Wehrmacht against the SS. One part of the NS-members against the others. It was a collective unfreezing. 1945-1960 most Germans probably thought this would only be a phase. That the Allies and their own quarrelers would leave it after a while. That turned out to be a miscalculations. The "Aufarbeitung der Vergangenheit" steeped up afterwards. Eichmann-Trial, which was obviously a propaganda coup. And then the Frankfurt Auschwitz Trial. And even the statutes of limitation were dropped to be able to have more trials in the future. The Historikerstreit was settled via the disparagement of Ernst Nolte. Academia did not come up with a repetition of this. And Nolte did put things rather mildly, then.

There were similar attempts via 'truth commissions' in other countries as well. The standards of evidence are lowered in such proceedings. Almost exclusively testimony (story-telling) is used there. And accusations put in circulation are essentially 'irrefutable', which is why burden of proof is on accusers, but this has been dropped now for political cases. With the Holocaust Narratives the 'guilt' is assumed and if they can't even show the remotest evidence, they simply insist that 'the Nazis made it vanish'. At the same time they insist that 'the Nazis were meticulous record keepers'. It's so insane, it is unbelievable that they can get through with this. But it works, because people are cooperating with this. This is power of Myth in action.

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Re: George Orwell an anti-semite and early adopter of Revisionism???

Postby EtienneSC » 1 month 3 weeks ago (Fri Apr 14, 2023 8:03 am)

Reviso wrote:Orwell's passage is ambiguous. If you read the preceding paragraph, you will see that Orwell presents systematic doubt as a means used by "nationalists" to accredit a view of history that absolves them. Now, Orwell may have had ideas behind the head, I don't know.
Indeed it is, when I read it more closely. He still leaves it open that "genuine doubt" is involved, which the "nationalist" takes advantage of. It would have to be read also in light of this earlier passage:
"For quite six years the English admirers of Hitler contrived not to learn of the existence of Dachau and Buchenwald. And those who are loudest in denouncing the German concentration camps are often quite unaware, or only very dimly aware, that there are also concentration camps in Russia. Huge events like the Ukraine famine of 1933, involving the deaths of millions of people, have actually escaped the attention of the majority of English russophiles. Many English people have heard almost nothing about the extermination of German and Polish Jews during the present war. Their own antisemitism has caused this vast crime to bounce off their consciousness. "
https://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/nationalism/english/e_nat
The "vast crime" is stated as fact in 1945, though without quantification. The ignorance of "many" English people could be explained by general incredulity about war propaganda as much as by their antisemitism. The Manstein trail in 1948 first allowed an effective legal defence under English law against similar accusations. The earlier British trials, such as the Belsen trial in 1945, seem to have been under military law.


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