Simple question: What happened to the people who were sent to the camps? / 'Where did they go?'

[Otium]

Personally I would be surprised to hear anyone claim that the Germans had no documents about killings during WW2. Did they even fight in this war? I wouldn't take such a person seriously.

That's not what I'm saying, I was talking about specific documents related to the alleged Holocaust. It is the exterminationists who'd like to see any and every document relating to the deaths of Jews, or reported deaths of Jews as a Holocaust related document. For them it fills in the gaps of a narrative they don't have any real evidence for in the first place. The Einsatzgruppen reports are a good example of this.

The fact that Jews were killed in anti-partisan warfare, big deal, that's to be expected. So I'm obviously not talking about documents that are of that nature.

Other than that, yes I agree with you, I just hope you didn't actually think I was saying there are literally no documents that talk about the deaths of Jews in any context. I'm not aware of anyone who says that.

[Lamprecht]

Personally I would be surprised to hear anyone claim that the Germans had no documents about killings during WW2. Did they even fight in this war? I wouldn't take such a person seriously.

That's not what I'm saying, I was talking about specific documents related to the alleged Holocaust. It is the exterminationists who'd like to see any and every document relating to the deaths of Jews, or reported deaths of Jews as a Holocaust related document. For them it fills in the gaps of a narrative they don't have any real evidence for in the first place. The Einsatzgruppen reports are a good example of this.

The fact that Jews were killed in anti-partisan warfare, big deal, that's to be expected. So I'm obviously not talking about documents that are of that nature.

Other than that, yes I agree with you, I just hope you didn't actually think I was saying there are literally no documents that talk about the deaths of Jews in any context. I'm not aware of anyone who says that.

I was responding to the post you were quoting (my bold)

let me get this straight. so the holocaust didn't happen, because there aren't any documents, hitler orders etc, just testimony (which doesnt count), and all the documents describing killings that do exist must be forgeries because the holocaust was faked, because if the germans really had done the holocaust they would have forged some fake resettlement documents. talk about 4d chess

He has not defined "Holocaust" beyond "Something the Germans did". He seems to be implying that there are no documents describing Germans killing people in WWII.

[Archie]

I remember when I first heard that there were people who questioned the Holocaust. When I first considered the possibility, it seemed quite likely to me that many aspects of it such as the atrocity stories were exaggerated. At the same time though, my intuition told me that it should be relatively easy to determine approximately how many Jews there were before and after the war. Maybe not exactly but surely we should be able to determine the approximate number of deaths within a million or so, right? Right???? How can there really be any debate over whether something like 40% of the world Jewish population died over a five year period? The veracity of such a claim should be readily apparent one way or the other. That is the implicit premise of this common question. But this is an instance where intuition can be misleading. Years later when I looked into the topic a little more closely, I realized some of my initial assumptions were naive and uninformed.

It is true that in advanced countries under normal circumstances we generally have pretty good demographic and mortality statistics. But things get more complicated when you're talking about wartime conditions with shifting borders, regime changes, and large migrations all at the same time. Even right now consider that the US government doesn't have precise numbers on how many illegal aliens are currently residing in the US (and note also that there's not much political will to determine this).

Now consider the additional difficulties specific to Jews. We are dealing with a diaspora population constituting a small percentage of the people in many different countries. Not all countries record Jews in the census. Notably the United States does not. (Jews also successfully lobbied to have the US stop keeping track of Jews immigrating into the country). The definition of Jew isn't always the same (religiously observant vs racial). And Jews can and do conceal their origins, change their names, etc (crypsis). In America the tendency is to switch to a less distinctly Jewish name. In Israel the tendency is to change their names to something Hebrew. While the latter practice doesn't conceal Jewishness, it can conceal Polish origins, Hungarian origins, etc. It's by no means a simple task to determine world Jewish population over the period in question and it's actually very possible that millions of Jews could disappear in the statistics. Especially if Jews themselves had an interest in creating such an impression.

[forasanerworld]

"Where did they go" assumes an uncertain starting point of how many there were, the IHR archive has a piece by Hankins that speaks of the great uncertainty and why censuses cannot be relied on.

I'm currently reading Henry Ford's "The International Jew", highly recommended, which makes two pertinent references, how Louis Marshall prevented the designation of Jew being an immigration/census question, all numbers being provided to Washington by the Zionist AJC, and two, that the sales of Passover bread suggested not the 3.5 million AJC number but 6 million in 1921.

[Lamprecht]

Simon Wiesenthal wrote after the liberation of the camps:
"The survivors spread over through Europe in an immense measureless tide. People hitch-hiked, stopped jeeps for the short journeys or clung to carriages on the demolished railways, without windows or doors. Some took a seat in the overflowing hay carts, other started off on foot."


from:

Understanding the Jews, Understanding Anti-Semitism
http://archive.vn/WLq4h or http://web.archive.org/web/202007060117 ... -semitism/ or http://archive.is/JwYUR
PDF: https://archive.org/details/Understandi ... iSemitism/ or http://web.archive.org/web/202007060108 ... mitism.pdf

[paternos]

[I have merged this post with this thread. Thanks, M1]

Hey everyone,

This is my first post on the CODOH forum as I feel I have something to add.

Bit of background on my journey and newcomer here: As a teen I visited Auschwitz and immediately couldn’t believe the stories, they seemed grotesque and not grounded in reality which made me a doubter.

Though I was captivated by this story, in my beginning twenties I visited the main camps, Treblinka, again Auschwitz & Sobibor and also visited Nurnberg. Especially my visit to Treblinka left in me in awe. No proof, no mass graves, the worst atrocity there is a shared pamphlet in the museum announcing the executions of criminals. (All very transparent and rule based as I would expect of the protestant Germans)

So shortening it a bit down, my step 1: No there has been no extermination, I’m convinced of that

But that left step 2: Where did they go?

I have seen enough proof of many people being transported in Western Europe to the camps that I need to answer this question. I think the 6 million are exaggerated, but at least a million.

In short that I think that that has been Russia, found some sources that convinced me that I haven’t seen shared before.

American Jew Activist James N. Rosenberg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_N._Rosenberg thanks Russia for accepting 1.750.000 jews in 1943 written up in a telegram of the JTA (Jewish Telegraphic Agency)

“of some 1,750,000 Jews who succeeded in escaping the Axis since the outbreak of hostilities, about 1,600,000 were evacuated by the Soviet Government from Eastern Poland and subsequently occupied Soviet territory and transported far into the Russian interior and beyond the Urals. About 150,000 others managed to reach Palestine, the United States, and other countries beyond the seas.”

“We Jews,” Mr. Rosenberg said, “rightly give thanks for the innumerable resolutions of sympathy for Jews, adopted by well-meaning men and groups horrified by the hideous tragedy which has befallen our people. Russia has chosen deeds. She has given life, asylum, bread, and shelter to a vast Jewish population. These facts are not sufficiently known. To make them known to every Jew in this country is a task of supreme importance for the Jewish Council for Russian War Relief. Need I ask what would have happened to those Jews had Russia left them where they were?”

I had to laugh this is so open and all is based on reports of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace organization.
https://www.jta.org/1943/07/02/archive/russia-helped-1750000-jews-to-escape-nazis-says-james-n-rosenberg

Also read the official telegram
http://pdfs.jta.org/1943/1943-07-02_153.pdf?_ga=2.162822840.509101817.1609241487-677962530.1609241487

Rosenberg, JTA, Carnegie foundation are all top influencers in that time. This line was advancing their mission back then: Get more funding for the Jews in Russia. After the war they changed position and story fully. To me this story is more trustable: in line with German documents on transports, supported by the large influx in Jews in Russia.

There are quite some public stories on multiple people that did this move as refugees. This documentary “Saved by Deportation” beautifully shows this with stories of Jews being saved by Stalin transported to the east. They though bumped down the numbers a lot today. No 1.750.000 jews, but thousands.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1260395/

Even population statistics in Uzbekistan shows an 88% growth of jews between 1939 and 1959, I’m quite sure those are refugees. Even though I don’t trust numbers in Russia a lot after WW2.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Uzbekistan

And then thinking about Treblinka, where the Russian rail track size met the European track size, it becomes quite clear to me.

What I think: Germans probably had an (unwritten) deal with the Russians.

In simple talk: Germans: “We want to get rid of the Jews. Do you want them?”

Russia: “Yes we will take your refugees, if you ….” (I have no clue what they demanded in return, but just the deal below is already quite good)

Thinking of Russia in that situation that would quite an interesting proposal, as they didn’t hate jews like the germans and were even having a strong jew presence in government.

- You can let all the young strong guys coming in fight directly to the enemy that expelled them. (Free conscription)
- They are quite an educated workforce that might bring growth and prosperity to severely underpopulated areas in East Russia.
- You can let them work for several years in the Siberian Work camps for free (like in the documentary) and I’m feel sure a lot of them died here, Siberia is a lot harsher than a German led work camp I’m sure reading Solzjenitsyn.

Anyhow a good deal for both!

Which leaves me to a question, if this is true, why did this not common knowledge?

After the war there was no advantage for the Russians to tell this truth.

The reality is they were simply accepting refugees, where Russia believed it was to their advantage to accept them. The story that Germany killed them all was politically far more advantageous for America, Jews and Russia after the war.

By portraying the Germans as bad mass killers the Americans were legitimized to grab strong presence in Europe after WW2 instrumentalized with the fake Nurnberg trials and the holocaust lies. America and Russia could divide the evil German territory after the war on the premise that they defeated this bad bad hitler strongly benefitting their interest.

They captured the heart of Europe and since then Europe has been under American, Russian and Jew occupation with the disasters we are seeing played out today.

Also the Jews have no incentive to tell this story, they can get billions of European euros as reparations for bad German killers. Next to that they can push their internationalism agenda vs the bad nationalist Hitlers in Europe today.

We will never get political backing for this theory, but personally I’m 95% sure this is how it went. Jews, Russians and Americans benefited greatly and still benefit of this blatant lie.

The only ones not benefitting are the cucked Europeans, who seem to love to be punished for their sins, they and their forefathers didn’t do. It’s sad but true. The amount of Jewish influence in politics and the money sent to Israel in all Western European states is horrifying. National identities in Europe are being slaughtered in the current vibe. And most countries are run by normative mommies humiliating men.

I’m just talking simple language, it’s all nuanced, Germans killed jews, shot them, but talking big numbers, I’m quite sure this is the main story of the Jews in WW2. For me this a conclusive answer to the plus million deported. That James Rosenberg message is so clear and telling.

Then why didn’t more stories from Russia pop up?

Russia has been closed down for many years. And after the war and after the collapse of communism there were 2 large batches of emigration of Jews all across the world and to Israel. And many people that encountered this ww2 transfer to Russia will have died there before 1989, we will never hear those stories.

And they did move. Between 1990 and 2000 Germany accepted +100.000 Jews from Russia further speeding up the Jewish narrative of internationalism in the European states that Rosenberg already wrote down. We all see the harm that open immigration of muslims are doing to the wide diverse identity of Europe.

We will not know all.

But 1 thing I know, this take on history what I consider truth is 100 times more likely than skin lamps, smashed babies and laughing German slaugtherers.

It’s depressing how the European people are being lied to and abused for all these years. I notice I got more political than I wanted in this post, but I feel the need to place this in the context of recent history and need to get this off my chest, i find it hard to see my family and people be subverted to humanitarian lies and false prophets.

Curious to hear your thoughts. Probably historians worked on this theory. Would love love to get some pointers / sources to get more depth on it. Criticism ofcourse welcome, I'm just a simple man trying to make sense in a web of lies.

Thanks,

Bern

[borjastick]

Hi paternos
I think you are very much on the right track here. Your observations on the camps and their credibility is about right too. The claims of camps such as Treblinka are beyond ridiculous and to the open minded, like you, are transparent and laughable.

Also there can be no doubt in terms of the number of jews ever at risk of falling into German hands that this is very few and way way short of the 6m claimed as murdered. They were in a perfect storm. A war loomed, borders were changing, Russia offered 1.5m - 2m a way out in various locations and they the jews could then make up any stories they liked as to the 'fate' of millions of jews. The simple answer is they moved or were moved out of harm's way.

After the war those who weren't living in the same place were automatically counted as murdered in the holocaust. Fantasy land at its best.

One only needs to look at the populations of jews in areas/regions and countries like the US and israel and the very well spotted Uzbekistan figures (50,000 in 1939 and 94,000 in 1959) to realise what was going on, but as you correctly say there was no information flow on this and no reason or advantage to show this information either.

I still have a plan to visit the Treblinka camp and delve deeper into the local history. I have an idea that Treblinka was simply a transit camp because the numbers going through Malkinia junction were too many to handle in such a small station. I will try to find the local museum and dig around to see if there is supporting evidence for this theory or has it been jewed over...

[Free Speech]

Great thread! No doubt the archives in USSR or Germany have more info. The Iron Curtain cut off the “missing” Jews. Many changed their names because Stalin disliked Jews. Religion is the opiate of the masses.

[curioussoul]

a new perspective i've considered in regards to the Reinhardt camps is how they compare to Auschwitz.

In Auschwitz, the modern orthodox estimate is that 1.1 million people were murdered in the camp, "most of which" were jews. Assuming 1 million of these were jews, they were supposedly gassed and cremated over the course of about 2½ years (may 1942 until november 1944) in numerous different gas chambers using specialized ventilation (supposedly) and introduction columns, and burned in a wide range of crematoria buildings specifically designed for this purpose.

comparing this to Treblinka, orthodox historians claim that almost the same number of jews (900 000) were murdered over the course of a mere 13 months, using absurdly undersized gas chambers and while simply burying the victims in the ground, later digging them up and primitively cremating them under the open sky. in the very first month of operation, treblinka is claimed to have gassed some 175 000 jews.

how come the entire 'system' in auschwitz was so bizarrely over-sized compared to the extremely minor and primitive system used in Treblinka to supposedly effortlessly murder almost a millions jews over just the span of barely a year? if it was at all possible to simply perform primitive outdoor cremations to get rid of such an enormous number of bodies, what was the point of building expensive and complicated crematoria in birkenau?

[Hektor]

....

let me get this straight. so the holocaust didn't happen, because there aren't any documents, hitler orders etc, just testimony (which doesnt count), and all the documents describing killings that do exist must be forgeries because the holocaust was faked, because if the germans really had done the holocaust they would have forged some fake resettlement documents. talk about 4d chess

He has not defined "Holocaust" beyond "Something the Germans did". He seems to be implying that there are no documents describing Germans killing people in WWII.

It's a bait and switch game being played there. The fallacy is actually an equivocation.
Holocaust is understood as an attempted, partially successful genocide of Jews by the Axis/NS-Germany involving the use of gas chambers in concentration camps. The distinctive mark here is industrial style homicidal gassings and corpse disposal.

When this is challenged the definition is simply broadened and shifted towards anything the Axis or anybody in Axis controlled territory did towards Jews during 1933-1945. Then they don't have to proof planned and implemented industrial style homicidal gassings anymore, but can simply point to concentration camps or documents recording deportation of Jews. Since this alone would be to boring, they can point to some violence or use of force against Jews within that era. German reactions to partisan warfare and espionage become "genocide" this way.

If that isn't disingenuous enough, they add more to this flavor. Now those "Holocaust Deniers" aren't accused of what they actually are doing (disputing the industrial style killing using homicidal gas chambers). They are now alleged to dispute the existence of concentration camps, internment, restrictive measures against Jews, Jewish mortality during the period. And that reveals that they have to resort to lying and deception to push their narrative through and "win the argument". What's astonishing is that not more people can look through those ruses and distance themselves from the Holocaust allegations as being dishonest, germanophobe atrocity propaganda. My guess is that people are too convenient and accustomed to being told "White Lies" and have get used to embrace them as they do "create peace within society". Well, in the short run it is pretty often that way.... But in the long run those lies accumulate and are in the habit to bite you with vengeance.

I remember when I first heard that there were people who questioned the Holocaust. When I first considered the possibility, it seemed quite likely to me that many aspects of it such as the atrocity stories were exaggerated. At the same time though, my intuition told me that it should be relatively easy to determine approximately how many Jews there were before and after the war. Maybe not exactly but surely we should be able to determine the approximate number of deaths within a million or so, right? Right???? How can there really be any debate over whether something like 40% of the world Jewish population died over a five year period? The veracity of such a claim should be readily apparent one way or the other. That is the implicit premise of this common question. But this is an instance where intuition can be misleading. Years later when I looked into the topic a little more closely, I realized some of my initial assumptions were naive and uninformed.

As far as people interested in history are concerned, most actually realize of find it probable that narratives relating to the Holocaust were or are exaggerated. Although they never won't dispute them in public or in front of an audience they don't know. There argument is that, even if the figures are wrong and atrocities were invented, there still must have been other wrong doings which were real and hence the whole charade around the Holocaust would be somehow justified.

Essentially this is the middle ground fallacy. People assume if there are two positions on a subject, the truth must be somewhere in the middle.
Applied to the Holocaust this works more or less like this.
1. The Jews and court historians say the "Nazis gassed six million Jews".
2. The Revisionists dispute this. Assuming now that they say that no Jews died at all during WW2.

Conclusion: Since the "truth must be in the middle", the Nazis did probably gas only 3 million Jews.
Of course this is still horrible, so they see no reason to oppose that charade.

This kind of 'reasoning' isn't only incredibly stupid, it also incentivizes people to exaggerate and lie. Knowing that people are prone to that kind of fallacy you simply make up a case, overstate it and even if people don't believe you fully, you can still bet that they will believe half of it. If that half of it is sufficiently useful, liars will always double on what they try to push through. And since they aren't dismissed outrightly, they will have some success with it and that's reason enough to repeat something like this whenever they deem it useful to them.

It is true that in advanced countries under normal circumstances we generally have pretty good demographic and mortality statistics. But things get more complicated when you're talking about wartime conditions with shifting borders, regime changes, and large migrations all at the same time. Even right now consider that the US government doesn't have precise numbers on how many illegal aliens are currently residing in the US (and note also that there's not much political will to determine this).

That depends on the type of country. relatively homogeneous ethno-states with stable demography will be prone to have accurate population statistics. But Jews may not fit in directly into that scheme. E.g. there may be no record on ethnicity, hence Jews will be counted as the same ethnicity like the general population. Religious affiliation will be incomplete, when there are many Jews that view themselves as "a-religious"... Hence may fill in atheist/agnostic if asked about their religion. Guess what happens if there were measures against Jews recently. They won't be too eager to reveal their ethnicity/religion to strangers.

Now consider the additional difficulties specific to Jews. We are dealing with a diaspora population constituting a small percentage of the people in many different countries. Not all countries record Jews in the census. Notably the United States does not. (Jews also successfully lobbied to have the US stop keeping track of Jews immigrating into the country). The definition of Jew isn't always the same (religiously observant vs racial). And Jews can and do conceal their origins, change their names, etc (crypsis). In America the tendency is to switch to a less distinctly Jewish name. In Israel the tendency is to change their names to something Hebrew. While the latter practice doesn't conceal Jewishness, it can conceal Polish origins, Hungarian origins, etc. It's by no means a simple task to determine world Jewish population over the period in question and it's actually very possible that millions of Jews could disappear in the statistics. Especially if Jews themselves had an interest in creating such an impression.

One feature of Jews is that they are highly mobile compared to other Europoid populations. That means they are more eager to switch regions or countries than e.g Germans, Poles, French people etc. Their community organizations, which are highly developed are conducive to this. E.g. if Jews migrate from Poland to the US, they probably didn't speak English in Poland, but given that there are already Jews in the US with organized communities that help them to learn English this isn't as much an obstacle than for e.g. a pole that doesn't have access to such community organizations.


The "What happened to the Jews, if they weren't gassed" type of question is a concealed type of argument. Some use it disingenuous others may be curious to seek an answer as to have certainty. As (fallacious) argument the question is trying to say: That since we don't know where those people are, they must have been gassed. It's however an argument using false logic to sound somehow plausible. It isn't even plausible. While killing a person can result in not knowing where that person is, the (presumed) absence of a person does not prove that XYZ killed that person. The only reason people find that argument plausible is that they already assume what actually needs to be proven and that's that Hitler had his minions gas the Jews and make the remains vanish. It's similar to the arguments for the COVID-scam: "If there is no new Virus, what made all those people sick".... Logical fallacies are employed over and over again, because people are prone to perform them and to fall for them, if applied to them in some gullible state. So scamsters will be prone to use them as well.

[Free Speech]

Ghettos in German-occupied East Europe 1939 — 1945

Ghettos in German-occupied East Europe 1939 — 1945
From page 52: https://www.ushmm.org/online/camps-ghet ... _PartA.pdf

Shows where they went. It’s a new book by the Holocaust Museum

From an article about the book in the New York Times.

When the research began in 2000, Dr. Megargee said he expected to find perhaps 7,000 Nazi camps and ghettos, based on postwar estimates. But the numbers kept climbing — first to 11,500, then 20,000, then 30,000, and now 42,500.

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/03/sund ... ticleShare

Link to a map drawn by the Times at the bottom of the article.

[Hektor]

Good Find.


Them ghettos is really something that needs to be investigated far more. I wonder if there are any contemporary documents on this and where.

I suspect lots of the post-war literature on this will be laced with Holocaustianity.

[Nazgul]

This information may be relevant.
For those interested here is a list of die Zwangarbeitslager für Juden (forced labour camps for Jews) compiled by:

http://www.deutschland-ein-denkmal.de/ded/start.

I have copied this information and put it on pdf as follows merely to save going back to the main site time and time again. The site does contain relevant information about each labour camp.

Zwangarbeitslager Polen und Reich 1030 camps
Zwangarbeitslager Ostland/ Ukraine 123 camps
Zwangarbeitslager Österreich für ungarische Juden 230 camps

This gives a list of 1,383 forced labour camps for Jews in the Reich and territories. More are being discovered daily it seems.

It is clear there were at least 230 camps in Austria specifically for Hungarian Jews. These could cater for about 460 thousand Jewish people.
These camps were in operation until the wars end. In addition to these were various konzenstrationslager and penal camps that also held Jews.

Butterfangers has made a considerable effort to put the work I have done elsewhere in a form that is readable on this forum.
Here is the link. NEW Considerations on Treblinka and the AR Camps

If one takes the same to explore the post of Butterfangers, he has reproduced the maps I used elsewhere of various Jewish Labour Camps over the wars progression. Those maps were compiled by "deutschland-ein-denkmal.de" in the link above. One can clearly see a westward progression as the war was slowly being lost by the Reich. The camps in Ostland/Ukraine are not finalized yet. I think the issue is due to name changes post war, but this is also work in progress.

I do not wish to repeat the information but to advise that this information may be relevant to the topic discussed here; those interested can go to the relevant links given. After analysis of "train schedules" of the period known as Fahrplananordnung various patterns arose. Fahrplananordnung documents have been used by holocaust promoters and supremacists as evidence that Jews were sent in mass to the end destinations by rail, the AR camps, specifically Treblinka II, where they were murdered. There are very few Fahrplananordnung that have survived but the ones presented show clearly that the transports stopped at the sites of major Labour Camps for Jews for extended periods of time. (about an hour)

It has been shown that some of these camps housed over 8000 häftling; the camp "Skarżysko-Kamienna "comes to mind.
Here is a copy of Fahrplananordnung Nr 587.

The only place that did not have labour camps for Jews was Lukow.

To me it is highly likely that Treblinka was the end point for very few Jews, most having disembarked on the way. As most, in all probability, did not arrive, it is not possible to ask "where did they go".

The same can be said of the supposed 400 odd thousand Hungarian Jews that were allegedly gassed at Birkenau. I contend that they did not arrive in the first place but did indeed live productive lives within the camps of Austria built specifically for them. The Jewish youth of the time Peter Lantos mentions in his book "Parallel Lines" that he and his family departed Hungary on one of 3 major transports (9000 people). His transport and another arrived in Austria where he and his family worked in a labour camp, while another went to Birkenau.

This is work in progress but I hope this may help resolve some vexing questions.

[Some Dude]

It doesn’t seem like the link above from Butterfingers works.

[Webmaster]

It doesn’t seem like the link above from Butterfingers works.

Fixed

Webmaster