Jews deported further east?

[MLLBR]

Hello everyone, this is my first time posting in this forum, im a revisionist myself, however english is not my first language, so excuse me if there is grammar mistakes. i´ve been studying revisionism for a couple of years now, read some and of the holocaust handbook series books.

My question is the following: is there documents proving that jews were deported further east? i´ve not studied this topic yet, and in the meanwhile i dont have much free time to delve into this issue, mainly i´ve only read the books about auschwitz, but i know that there are books about the transit camps and etc, so i would like to see some specific documents proving that they were sent elsewhere after arriving in these camps.

[Hektor]

Welcome to the forum MLLBR.

I recall that there is SOME documentation that they were deported further to the East than the so-called 'death camps'. But the information is rather flimsy. So it is for sure a research topic that still needs some more investigation.

There is however Ghettos East of occupied Poland. For whom where they? The common narrative was that 'the Einsatzgruppen' shot all the Jews they could get hold of. That would mean those Jews would have to have come from elsewhere. And even if the Einsatzgruppen didn't do that (there isn't really much hard evidence for this)... Jews left those areas together with the Soviets.

[Nazgul]

My question is the following: is there documents proving that jews were deported further east?

Perhaps this may help. I am new here myself. There is no mention of Treblinka in the information below.

If you read the link you will see that the first transports out of Warsaw, were several thousand young men sent to the Bobruysk Waldlager in Belarus. Some made it back to work in various labour camps for Jews.

From Czech radio we discover that thousands of Jews were deported to the Russian East, during WWII.

Tens of thousands Of Jews deported to work in Belarus and in the Baltic states.
The first deportation of Jews to Belarus took place on November 14, 1941. The transport garnered little attention among the Czech public. “The operation took place without complications,” can be read in one of the contemporary Prague Police reports. In total, 22,000 Czech Jews were deported to Belarus during the war.

link

Testimony of Austrian Jew sent to Belarus.

On May 6, 1942, we left the collection camp (in Vienna)... (at the) railway station we learned... that we were being taken to Minsk. We travelled by passenger coach as far as Wolkowisk (Vawkavysk), where we had to... change over into cattle vans... We arrived in Minsk on May 11 (at the) station we were met by SS and Police... For the transport of the sick, of persons who went out of their mind during the journey, the aged and infirm (about 200 in number in our transport) box-cars stood waiting -- great, gray, closed motor-vans into which the people were thrown one on top of the other in confusion... 81 persons fit for work were picked from among the arrivals and taken to the camp of the Security Police and SD in Mali-Trostinez (12 kms. from Minsk). The camp consisted of a few rotting old barns and stables. That is where we were housed... When new people arrived, others who were not 100 percent fit for work were taken out. We were told that some of these were sent to hospital and others to other estates to work there. (Only) the best workers were to stay on our estate, Mali-Trostinez, so that our camp would be an example to others... The highest complement in the camp was about 600 Jews and 300 Russian prisoners... On July 28, 1942, the news reached us in the camp of a "Grossaktion in the Ghetto." It involved at that time about 8,000 Russian and 5,000 German, Austrian and Czech Jews, who had been in the Minsk Ghetto from November 1941... The transports ceased at the end of 1942... (in the meantime) we learned that there were no "other estates" in the vicinity of Minsk and that it was to "Estate 16" that all the people were taken... "Estate 16" is about 4-5 kms.

J. Moser, Die Judenverfolgung in Oesterreich 1938-1945 ("Persecution of the Jews in Austria, 1938-1945"), Vienna, 1966, pp. 35-36.

link

I have written more about this here

[MLLBR]

Welcome to the forum MLLBR.

I recall that there is SOME documentation that they were deported further to the East than the so-called 'death camps'. But the information is rather flimsy. So it is for sure a research topic that still needs some more investigation.

There is however Ghettos East of occupied Poland. For whom where they? The common narrative was that 'the Einsatzgruppen' shot all the Jews they could get hold of. That would mean those Jews would have to have come from elsewhere. And even if the Einsatzgruppen didn't do that (there isn't really much hard evidence for this)... Jews left those areas together with the Soviets.

Thanks Hektor.
Its seems that there is not an abundance of documents about this issue, maybe they got destroyed by the allies? I've heard some people saying this.

I have also read the einzatzgruppen book by mattogno, its huge. Yes, this shooting narrative really dont stand up to scrutiny, if it was true, people would find many huge mass graves with thousands of bodies, its hard to discuss this topic with "normal" people because they just start posting pictures of random mass graves with a low number of bodies, like that would prove that hundreds of thousands were shot, i guess any kind of "evidence" would make them happy.

[MLLBR]

My question is the following: is there documents proving that jews were deported further east?

Perhaps this may help. I am new here myself. There is no mention of Treblinka in the information below.

If you read the link you will see that the first transports out of Warsaw, were several thousand young men sent to the Bobruysk Waldlager in Belarus. Some made it back to work in various labour camps for Jews.

From Czech radio we discover that thousands of Jews were deported to the Russian East, during WWII.

Tens of thousands Of Jews deported to work in Belarus and in the Baltic states.
The first deportation of Jews to Belarus took place on November 14, 1941. The transport garnered little attention among the Czech public. “The operation took place without complications,” can be read in one of the contemporary Prague Police reports. In total, 22,000 Czech Jews were deported to Belarus during the war.

link

Testimony of Austrian Jew sent to Belarus.

On May 6, 1942, we left the collection camp (in Vienna)... (at the) railway station we learned... that we were being taken to Minsk. We travelled by passenger coach as far as Wolkowisk (Vawkavysk), where we had to... change over into cattle vans... We arrived in Minsk on May 11 (at the) station we were met by SS and Police... For the transport of the sick, of persons who went out of their mind during the journey, the aged and infirm (about 200 in number in our transport) box-cars stood waiting -- great, gray, closed motor-vans into which the people were thrown one on top of the other in confusion... 81 persons fit for work were picked from among the arrivals and taken to the camp of the Security Police and SD in Mali-Trostinez (12 kms. from Minsk). The camp consisted of a few rotting old barns and stables. That is where we were housed... When new people arrived, others who were not 100 percent fit for work were taken out. We were told that some of these were sent to hospital and others to other estates to work there. (Only) the best workers were to stay on our estate, Mali-Trostinez, so that our camp would be an example to others... The highest complement in the camp was about 600 Jews and 300 Russian prisoners... On July 28, 1942, the news reached us in the camp of a "Grossaktion in the Ghetto." It involved at that time about 8,000 Russian and 5,000 German, Austrian and Czech Jews, who had been in the Minsk Ghetto from November 1941... The transports ceased at the end of 1942... (in the meantime) we learned that there were no "other estates" in the vicinity of Minsk and that it was to "Estate 16" that all the people were taken... "Estate 16" is about 4-5 kms.

J. Moser, Die Judenverfolgung in Oesterreich 1938-1945 ("Persecution of the Jews in Austria, 1938-1945"), Vienna, 1966, pp. 35-36.

link

I have written more about this here

Thanks for the answer and the links, is there any books dealing with this topic? I would like to read more about this issue.

[hermod]

One needs to know that those train records were highly centralized and that the whole paper trail was kept on site at the Reinhardt camps. That was demonstrated in July 1944, when a single Soviet bomb destroyed all the train records of Belzec. Knowing this, one realizes how easy it was for the Soviets to destroy the railway documents debunking their own anti-German atrocity propaganda about those camps, i.e. all the outbound train records of the Reinhardt camps.

Exterminationist/antirevisionist sources say :

the old railway station in Belzec. All transports with Jews deported to the death camp arrived at this station. Documentation about the transports, notably the transfer telegrams, was also kept in this building. In July 1944, two weeks before the Soviet army entered Belzec, the railway station was bombed by a single Soviet airplane. A German transport loaded with ammunition was standing in the station and was destroyed. Because of the exploding ammunition, all structures within a radius of about 250 m., including the building of railway station, were completely demolished. It was at this time that the original documentation about the transports was lost.

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... cptgs.html

The railway documents were all destroyed on July 4 1944, when a lone Russian bomber dropped one solitary bomb over Belzec which just happened to hit an ammunition train standing in the station. The Belzec railway station was completely destroyed together with all the records.

http://www.jewishgen.org/Yizkor/belzec/bel002.html

Immediately after the war, the various commissions investigating the number of victims murdered in the death camps could only estimate the numbers, which were based on an average of 100 persons to each wagon. If, for example, we take the Kolomyja transport of September 10,1942, we know that 51 freight wagons were made available and that 8,205 victims were counted-off, with so many to a wagon an average of 165. The Bill of Lading says just this, which is corroborated by the security personnel who loaded and escorted the train from Kolomyja to Belzec. The original reports submitted by the escorting security personnel of the Kolomyja transport have survived for scrutiny Even so, apart from this written evidence, we have no other documentation from the railway authorities to verify or corroborate this. To add to the difficulties for any analysis, Belzec railway station was blown up and all records destroyed in July 1944, when a lone Soviet aircraft dropped a single bomb on an ammunition train parked in the railway sidings.

http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/belzec1/bel160.html

The destruction of the railway station may well be the reason why no railroad documentation of the transports to Belzec has apparently survived.

(The Belzec Death Camp: History, Biographies, Remembrance, p.205, by Chris Webb)

The French Communist newspaper Notre Voix reported in April 1944 (on information provided by Radio-Moscow, the newspaper said) that 8,000 Jews deported from Paris had just been liberated by the Red Army in Ukraine.

https://postimg.cc/ftZknWt1

[Lamprecht]

I suggest:
Simple question: What happened to the people who were sent to the camps? / 'Where did they go?'
viewtopic.php?t=13204

Its seems that there is not an abundance of documents about this issue, maybe they got destroyed by the allies? I've heard some people saying this.

Indeed. The outbound train records for the far eastern camps (the ones right near where the rail gauges change sizes) are almost entirely missing/destroyed. So we have no idea what they said. We know some people were sent to other camps from these, because of inbound records from these camps. So there certainly are missing outbound train records from these camps (Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka 2).
The locations of these camps suggest the purpose was mass resettlement. I provide maps showing this in the thread linked above, page 2.

[hermod]

I have also read the einzatzgruppen book by mattogno, its huge. Yes, this shooting narrative really dont stand up to scrutiny, if it was true, people would find many huge mass graves with thousands of bodies, its hard to discuss this topic with "normal" people because they just start posting pictures of random mass graves with a low number of bodies, like that would prove that hundreds of thousands were shot, i guess any kind of "evidence" would make them happy.

[Hektor]

Welcome to the forum MLLBR.

I recall that there is SOME documentation that they were deported further to the East than the so-called 'death camps'. But the information is rather flimsy. So it is for sure a research topic that still needs some more investigation.

There is however Ghettos East of occupied Poland. For whom where they? The common narrative was that 'the Einsatzgruppen' shot all the Jews they could get hold of. That would mean those Jews would have to have come from elsewhere. And even if the Einsatzgruppen didn't do that (there isn't really much hard evidence for this)... Jews left those areas together with the Soviets.

Thanks Hektor.
Its seems that there is not an abundance of documents about this issue, maybe they got destroyed by the allies? I've heard some people saying this.

I have also read the einzatzgruppen book by mattogno, its huge. Yes, this shooting narrative really dont stand up to scrutiny, if it was true, people would find many huge mass graves with thousands of bodies, its hard to discuss this topic with "normal" people because they just start posting pictures of random mass graves with a low number of bodies, like that would prove that hundreds of thousands were shot, i guess any kind of "evidence" would make them happy.

It seems 'for the Holocaust' almost anything will do as evidence.
Camps, deportations lists, delousing chambers, showers, graves, shoes, anything becomes evidence FOR the Holocaust (six million gassed Jews). That this evidence is insufficient and can also be interpreted in a different way (That Jews were indeed deported to transport them out of Germany and its sphere of influence, that delousing was considered a necessity to keep them healthy as were the showers who indeed were showers, that materials were collected for recycling, that there was also war time related mortality which increased against the end of the war) is usually ignored and actually something that is a taboo for many people. But it isn't a taboo for everyone in the same way. Career Historians may consider it taboo more than other people's do, while they will argue that they don't. Emotionally invested people also will get outraged, if somebody suggests that there is something seriously wrong with the claims. It's a bit different with more common folks, which may wonder themselves 'how we actually know that the narrative is true'. People that are interested, but not emotionally invested commonly realize that there is something wrong with the narrative, but can't always put their finger on it. I recall a policemen that travelled in Europe and also visited Auschwitz... To him the show simply wasn't believable and he realized that it is a 'make believe' game played on people. But most people don't have a police investigation's background. So there is a problem.

[Nazgul]

The outbound train records for the far eastern camps (the ones right near where the rail gauges change sizes) are almost entirely missing/destroyed.

I have been trying for ages trying to find the exact location of rail gauge change. Many have mentioned a few km east of Malkinia or Siedlce just over the Bug. The situation is complex from 1930 onwards. Narrow-gauge railways in Poland

To make thinks more complex (for me at least) I posted a report above about Austrian transport for Jews heading from Vienna to Minsk.

We travelled by passenger coach as far as Wolkowisk (Vawkavysk), where we had to... change over into cattle vans.

Modern travel depict a 7 hour journey NE using the Warsaw - Bialystok line passing through Malkinia. Vawkavysk had 2 labour camps for Jews and is about 180 km from Malkinia. It appears this witness rode all the way to Vawkavysk, before changing transports. While now a part of Belarus, prior to the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact it was a part of the Second Polish Republic in the Białystok Voivodeship.

In 1886, Vawkavysk city finished the construction of a railway junction and station between Baranovichi and Białystok. T

[Lamprecht]

The outbound train records for the far eastern camps (the ones right near where the rail gauges change sizes) are almost entirely missing/destroyed.

I have been trying for ages trying to find the exact location of rail gauge change. Many have mentioned a few km east of Malkinia or Siedlce just over the Bug. The situation is complex from 1930 onwards. Narrow-gauge railways in Poland

To make thinks more complex (for me at least) I posted a report above about Austrian transport for Jews heading from Vienna to Minsk.

We travelled by passenger coach as far as Wolkowisk (Vawkavysk), where we had to... change over into cattle vans.

Modern travel depict a 7 hour journey NE using the Warsaw - Bialystok line passing through Malkinia. Vawkavysk had 2 labour camps for Jews and is about 180 km from Malkinia. It appears this witness rode all the way to Vawkavysk, before changing transports. While now a part of Belarus, prior to the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact it was a part of the Second Polish Republic in the Białystok Voivodeship.

In 1886, Vawkavysk city finished the construction of a railway junction and station between Baranovichi and Białystok. T

They likely changed them out / converted / re-nailed them (umgenagelt) a work-in-progress for sure.
From: https://archive.vn/b6vfP
"In the operational files of Heerengruppe Mitte, there are three maps60 showing the progress of the re-gauging of the main double-track line from Brest: On 3 July 1941, it ran to Baranocwicze with an unloading point there, and it was drivable on Union gauge with a further unloading point at Minsk. By 31 July 1941, unloading was happening at Orscha, with a second Union gauge track from the border through Lida as far as an unloading point at Polozk, while on 28 August a Standard gauge track was unloading at Smolensk with the second Union line from Lida unloading at Vitebsk.61 General des Eisenbahnpioniere Otto Willi reported on 8 August 1941 that 16,148 km of track had its gauge converted, of which 4,414 km was in the Heerengruppe Mitte area.62 With the distance from Terespol on the Polish border to Moscow being 1,070 km, there was sufficient Standard gauge track converted to support the advance using German railway stock."

That article was cited here: viewtopic.php?p=107146#p107146
Along with another, that I think deal partly with that issue.
I am sure if you looked, you could find other examples of the Soviet-style tracks being converted by the Germans.
I don't think switching over to cattle vans necessarily means that the gauges changed there, although it could mean that. I am no train expert but I do understand that it's not like an automobile that you can drive around. Two trains on the same track, one can't just easily pass the other one. Also it could be the case that they planned on also transporting supplies, and the switch was into cars that already had supplies in them ready to go, or were better suited to transport these supplies or something like that.

There also were issues with railroad sabotage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_s ... rld_War_II