New research uncovers strong evidence that Jews were murdered BEFORE they reached Treblinka

[bombsaway]

I'm sure there were people that had a knife in for Jews, but was that actual policy? The actions and course of events simply doesn't support that notion.

Sorry I meant to answer this. The Kube document shows that yes, genocide was policy, at least in Belarus. As Mattogno says, it was justified (from their perspective), but genocide nonetheless

[Hektor]

I'm sure there were people that had a knife in for Jews, but was that actual policy? The actions and course of events simply doesn't support that notion.

Sorry I meant to answer this. The Kube document shows that yes, genocide was policy, at least in Belarus. As Mattogno says, it was justified (from their perspective), but genocide nonetheless

Where does the document show this, again?

[bombsaway]

Sorry I meant to answer this. The Kube document shows that yes, genocide was policy, at least in Belarus. As Mattogno says, it was justified (from their perspective), but genocide nonetheless

Where does the document show this, again?

"In the area of Minsk county Jewry has been completely eliminated"

Planned, systematic killing by multiple uncoordinated agencies: "Without contacting me, the Army Rear Zone Command liquidated 10,000 Jews, whose systematic elimination had in any case been planned by us."

Elderly Jews, children, those unable to work, German (so non-Yiddish , non-Russian speaking) deemed political threat : "In the city of Minsk about 10,000 Jews were liquidated on July 28 and 29. Of these 6,500 were Russian Jews mainly old men, women and children and the rest Jews incapable of work, who were sent to Minsk in November of last year by order of the Fuehrer, mainly from Vienna, Bruenn, Bremen and Berlin."

Stated desire by highest civilian office and SD to kill the employable Jews after they can be replaced by other workers: "Naturally I and the SD would like it best if Jewry in the Generalbezirk of Byelorussia was finally eliminated after their labor is no longer required by the Wehrmacht. For the time being the essential requirements of the Wehrmacht, the main employer of Jewry, are being taken into consideration."

Perhaps one might argue that these Jews were not being killed, rather liquidation/elimination means they were resettled somewhere else, but Mattogno sees these actions as brutal "massacres", probably because they dovetail with separately documented EG killings.

[Lamprecht]

Sorry I meant to answer this. The Kube document shows that yes, genocide was policy, at least in Belarus. As Mattogno says, it was justified (from their perspective), but genocide nonetheless

Where does the document show this, again?

"In the area of Minsk county Jewry has been completely eliminated"

Planned, systematic killing by multiple uncoordinated agencies: "Without contacting me, the Army Rear Zone Command liquidated 10,000 Jews, whose systematic elimination had in any case been planned by us."

Elderly Jews, children, those unable to work, German (so non-Yiddish , non-Russian speaking) deemed political threat : "In the city of Minsk about 10,000 Jews were liquidated on July 28 and 29. Of these 6,500 were Russian Jews mainly old men, women and children and the rest Jews incapable of work, who were sent to Minsk in November of last year by order of the Fuehrer, mainly from Vienna, Bruenn, Bremen and Berlin."

Stated desire by highest civilian office and SD to kill the employable Jews after they can be replaced by other workers: "Naturally I and the SD would like it best if Jewry in the Generalbezirk of Byelorussia was finally eliminated after their labor is no longer required by the Wehrmacht. For the time being the essential requirements of the Wehrmacht, the main employer of Jewry, are being taken into consideration."

Perhaps one might argue that these Jews were not being killed, rather liquidation/elimination means they were resettled somewhere else, but Mattogno sees these actions as brutal "massacres", probably because they dovetail with separately documented EG killings.

Quite clearly this is not part of any program to exterminate the Jews, assuming the document is genuine. Notice that Jews were being sent to the region with no intention to be treated as prisoners, otherwise they would not have been expected to be able to contribute to partisan/terrorist activity. A policy of Jewish resettlement is implicitly confirmed. Additionally, a demand was made to stop sending Jews to the region, as their involvement in partisan/terrorist activity was creating problems.

The death tolls of these claimed executions, which were clearly a response to the ongoing [illegal] partisan warfare, were within the realm of the civilian-targeted bombing campaigns conducted by the "Allies." You could call this "genocide" if you want, perhaps, but then why not also consider the bombing of Tokyo or Berlin to be genocide?
Consider also that executing "innocent" civilians in reprisal actions that were a response to terrorist attacks by partisans was not illegal at the time.

Mark Mazower in his book 'Hitler's Empire' notes that the partisan warfare and the brutality of it was not a specifically Nazi invention, but rather a traditional method of European warfare, stating (p. 353):

"Germany's allies may have occasionally been shocked by the Wehrmacht's brutality in the Ukraine and Belorussia, but in the face of their own partisan threat, they did not respond very differently. The uncomfortable truth is that the counterinsurgency war was more the product of a certain European way of fighting than of Nazism itself. Technologies had changed in the previous decades, but in other respects they were fighting in much the same spirit, and according to the same rules, as they had observed in their colonial campaigns and in the First World War."

The document you provide does not led any credibility to the position that there were "extermination camps" set up with homicidal gas chambers. They did not say that they executed Jews by sending them to any of the so-called "extermination camps" such as Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec, Auschwitz, etc. Further, a policy of Jewish resettlement is recognized in a document describing mass executions of Jews.

We should also recognize that if there was a policy of killing every Jew solely on the basis of their Jewishness, justifications for executions of Jews would not be provided.

It may cause some people emotional distress to read about Jewish civilians - women, children, the elderly, etc - being killed in a war. However, it might make you feel better that non-Jewish civilians suffered the very same fate. In fact, being shot in the head can be considered a quick and painless death compared to burning alive in a firebombing campaign.

Part of the reason why partisans did not have the same rights as uniformed soldiers was to discourage this illegal practice. Their mode of operation is to blend in with civilians. This creates a serious issue where it becomes extremely difficult - or even impossible - to stop so long as this civilian population is present in this manner.
Consider that if these Jewish civilians were voluntarily aiding the German war effort, rather than aiding the partisans the Germans were fighting (even actively engaging in this activity) then this sort of response would not have been seen appropriate. And yes, I recognize it's obvious that Jews wouldn't be helping the Germans, for obvious reasons. But now you can maybe understand why it's obvious that this would have happened to the Jews - even without any "extermination policy" in response to this described behavior.

[bombsaway]

Quite clearly this is not part of any program to exterminate the Jews, assuming the document is genuine. Notice that Jews were being sent to the region with no intention to be treated as prisoners, otherwise they would not have been expected to be able to contribute to partisan/terrorist activity. A policy of Jewish resettlement is implicitly confirmed.

I agree. Transports from Germany and Austria are known to have been sent there, mostly in 1941 (hence the German Jews described in the document). Transports continued into 1942 (nothing is known after Summer 42). Records suggest many were killed on arrival. https://littlegreyrabbit.wordpress.com/ ... t/#more-44

You could call this "genocide" if you want, perhaps, but then why not also consider the bombing of Tokyo or Berlin to be genocide?
Consider also that executing "innocent" civilians in reprisal actions that were a response to terrorist attacks by partisans was not illegal at the time.

I do consider those things to be genocide. They were justified by American and British decision makers. Bombing of German cities created a second front which ended up sucking up around half of Germany's military resources. Bombing of Japanese cities was intended to force an early Japanese surrender.

Nazis had their justifications as well, though Kube doesn't mention reprisals, only that partisans were being helped by the Jews there. The fact these killings were planned (by multiple agencies), sometimes months in advance, and that in certain areas the entire population was killed, does not support the idea these were reprisal killings. Typically reprisal killings would be immediate responses to incidents and target only a portion of the population, to try to deter the rest from acting in a certain way.

In future, too, Minsk will remain the largest Jewish element owing to the concentration of armament industries in the area and as the requirements of the railroad make this necessary for the time being. In all other areas the number of Jews used for work will be reduced by the SD and myself to a maximum of 800, and, if possible, 500, so that when the remaining planned Aktionen have been completed there will be 8,600 in Minsk and about 7,000 Jews in the 10 other districts, including the Jew-free Minsk District. There will then be no further danger that the partisans can still rely to any real extent on Jewry

I can only speculate about how most of the Jews under German guard in eg Minsk ghetto were helping local partisans. Probably it had something to do with a perceived future threat. German Jews didn't know Russian but could learn. Children might grow up to want to avenge the deaths of their relatives. Women can have babies that become partisans. Those not actively involved in black market smuggling of weapons to Partisans and so on can still foment hatred in those they speak to.

[curioussoul]

I do consider those things to be genocide. They were justified by American and British decision makers. Bombing of German cities created a second front which ended up sucking up around half of Germany's military resources. Bombing of Japanese cities was intended to force an early Japanese surrender.

That's just a smokescreen to hide the fact that you've now moved the goalpost from a centrally planned, industrialized genocide of Jews in gas chambers for the sole reason of them being Jews, to the idea that documents about killing Jews in Eastern Europe proves the "Holocaust". As both Mattogno and many other writers, including mainstream writers, have demonstrated, partisan warfare and sabotage against Germany by Jews in Eastern Europe was largely an objective fact of reality and not just Nazi imaginations.

Original documents from Wehrmacht officials prove that Jews were leading agitators among the partisans, and the Germans, already being presupposed towards antisemitism, obviously picked up on this quite quickly and aimed their reprisals against the local Jews.

This simply has nothing to do with the Holocaust and doesn't fit into the orthodox Holocaust narrative.

[Lamprecht]

I agree. Transports from Germany and Austria are known to have been sent there, mostly in 1941 (hence the German Jews described in the document). Transports continued into 1942 (nothing is known after Summer 42). Records suggest many were killed on arrival. https://littlegreyrabbit.wordpress.com/ ... t/#more-44

Is there any convincing evidence that this cited document is even genuine?

I do consider those things to be genocide. They were justified by American and British decision makers. Bombing of German cities created a second front which ended up sucking up around half of Germany's military resources. Bombing of Japanese cities was intended to force an early Japanese surrender.

You consider normal conduct of war to be genocide if civilians die, even when what as happening was legal?
I find that absurd, frankly. You have to understand that wars are typically fought by states, which traditionally are comprised of a nation, which is traditionally made up by an ethnic group (or a collection of closely related ethnicities).

Nazis had their justifications as well, though Kube doesn't mention reprisals, only that partisans were being helped by the Jews there. The fact these killings were planned (by multiple agencies), sometimes months in advance, and that in certain areas the entire population was killed, does not support the idea these were reprisal killings. Typically reprisal killings would be immediate responses to incidents and target only a portion of the population, to try to deter the rest from acting in a certain way.

That's just a semantic dispute. It's a response to [illegal] partisan activity. The response does not even appear to have been illegal. Again, a big reason partisan warfare as banned as because they did not wear uniforms so you could not tell them apart from civilians. A reprisal is an act of retaliation. The killings described in the document you cite appear to be overall in relation to the overwhelming role of the Jews, as a people, in the partisan war in Eastern Europe. It as a response to their behavior, a retaliation, and it does not even appear to be outright illegal.

In future, too, Minsk will remain the largest Jewish element owing to the concentration of armament industries in the area and as the requirements of the railroad make this necessary for the time being. In all other areas the number of Jews used for work will be reduced by the SD and myself to a maximum of 800, and, if possible, 500, so that when the remaining planned Aktionen have been completed there will be 8,600 in Minsk and about 7,000 Jews in the 10 other districts, including the Jew-free Minsk District. There will then be no further danger that the partisans can still rely to any real extent on Jewry

I can only speculate about how most of the Jews under German guard in eg Minsk ghetto were helping local partisans. Probably it had something to do with a perceived future threat. German Jews didn't know Russian but could learn. Children might grow up to want to avenge the deaths of their relatives. Women can have babies that become partisans. Those not actively involved in black market smuggling of weapons to Partisans and so on can still foment hatred in those they speak to.

I don't think it had anything to do with the concern that Jewish babies would eventually grow up to become fully-grown adult males that would take up arms and join terrorist groups. No, that's kind of ridiculous, it's not immediate enough.



The most likely issue was that the Germans believed the Jews were providing support for these terrorist partisans. Food was an important resource. Merely providing resources such as food to these illegal terrorist fighting forces would have been collaborating to a degree that would not have been tolerated. It's also likely that, if Jews were being resettled here, the partisan groups would be recruiting from these new arrivals.

Generally, the Germans would instruct local populations to set up anti-partisan forces in their villages. They were not to associate with them. They were expected to kill them on sight and to provide the Germans with any assistance in eradicating them. I doubt you will find anyone trying to make the case that the resettled Jews were actively volunteering, helping the Germans to eradicate these partisan forces. Most likely these Jews were either doing everything they could to help the resistance forces out, or turning a blind eye to any of the Jews they suspected were doing this.

In such a case - and this is the most reasonable inference to make from the document you provided (and a general understanding of how the partisan resistance movements in Eastern Europe functioned) such mass executions were just as much "genocidal" as any bombing campaigns of civilians; which was also considered perfectly legal and was certainly also "planned in advance."

[bombsaway]

I do consider those things to be genocide. They were justified by American and British decision makers. Bombing of German cities created a second front which ended up sucking up around half of Germany's military resources. Bombing of Japanese cities was intended to force an early Japanese surrender.

That's just a smokescreen to hide the fact that you've now moved the goalpost from a centrally planned, industrialized genocide of Jews in gas chambers for the sole reason of them being Jews, to the idea that documents about killing Jews in Eastern Europe proves the "Holocaust". As both Mattogno and many other writers, including mainstream writers, have demonstrated, partisan warfare and sabotage against Germany by Jews in Eastern Europe was largely an objective fact of reality and not just Nazi imaginations.

Original documents from Wehrmacht officials prove that Jews were leading agitators among the partisans, and the Germans, already being presupposed towards antisemitism, obviously picked up on this quite quickly and aimed their reprisals against the local Jews.

This simply has nothing to do with the Holocaust and doesn't fit into the orthodox Holocaust narrative.

The Kube document shows that it was centrally planned. The killings are described as being scheduled, and happened with the full support and highest authorities in the region, both civilian and military.

What you say about partisan warfare might be true in a sense, but the document shows that children, elderly, the sick, people who were ghettoized and couldn't speak the local language, were highly threatening to them and that's why they were killed. Personally I see no Jew that wouldn't fall under this category.

I don't think any orthodox historian believes Jews were killed for being Jews -- rather for what being Jewish meant to Nazis and the perceived threat. Jews were opposed to them politically, philosophically, economically, spreading Bolshevism as well as undermining nationalist aims.

I don't think it had anything to do with the concern that Jewish babies would eventually grow up to become fully-grown adult males that would take up arms and join terrorist groups. No, that's kind of ridiculous, it's not immediate enough.

The most likely issue was that the Germans believed the Jews were providing support for these terrorist partisans. Food was an important resource. Merely providing resources such as food to these illegal terrorist fighting forces would have been collaborating to a degree that would not have been tolerated. It's also likely that, if Jews were being resettled here, the partisan groups would be recruiting from these new arrivals.

In Minsk by 1942 all the Jews were ghettoized, under German guard. I don't think they were all in a position to be helping the partisans, do you?

And all the non-employable Jews were killed, including children

[Lamprecht]

That's just a smokescreen to hide the fact that you've now moved the goalpost from a centrally planned, industrialized genocide of Jews in gas chambers for the sole reason of them being Jews, to the idea that documents about killing Jews in Eastern Europe proves the "Holocaust".

Indeed. Ignoring for a moment anything related to WW2, Jews are often the first to complain when historically normal conduct of war is classified as "genocide" because it cheapens the term.
Typically, the goal of a genocide must be to eliminate the group for that sake alone. The goal here was to win a war, and a justification was provided (which wouldn't be necessary in a proper genocide) was that the Jews were assisting the partisans in their illegal terrorist warfare operations.
Jews often get a special status by not having a specific national identity. Shooting Russian civilians? Not genocide, because they were at war with the Russians (USSR). Soviets shooting German civilians? Not genocide, because Russians were at war with the Third Reich.
But shooting Jews? Apparently the Jews were not at war. As if anyone was confused for a second about which side they were supportive of...

[fireofice]

I agree. Transports from Germany and Austria are known to have been sent there, mostly in 1941 (hence the German Jews described in the document). Transports continued into 1942 (nothing is known after Summer 42). Records suggest many were killed on arrival. https://littlegreyrabbit.wordpress.com/ ... t/#more-44

The Arlt reports are absolutely fake. The most convincing reason being that whoever wrote it can't get basic German right, not knowing the difference between a Gruppe and a Zug. Probably written by someone not intimately familiar with German.

https://inconvenienthistory.com/3/2/3147

As a side note, Roberto from holocaust controversies tried responding to Kues on this. His mental gymnastics trying to explain this away are pretty amusing.

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... rying.html

In reality, this was probably written by a forger for whom German was not a first language.

[telleno]

As a side note, Roberto from holocaust controversies tried responding to Kues on this. His mental gymnastics trying to explain this away are pretty amusing.

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... rying.html

In reality, this was probably written by a forger for whom German was not a first language.

Did Kues ever respond?

[fireofice]

Did Kues ever respond?

No. It's not necessary for "responses" to every little thing on that blog. Just read both sides and use your brain.

[Lamprecht]

In Minsk by 1942 all the Jews were ghettoized, under German guard.

Describe, in detail, how impossible it would have been for these Jews to interact with anyone outside of the ghetto that wasn't a German guard.

I don't think they were all in a position to be helping the partisans, do you?

Most likely they could have, sure. In fact, that's the general position.

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_Ghetto

"The Minsk Ghetto is notable for its large scale resistance organization, which cooperated closely with Soviet partisans. About 10,000 Jews were able to escape the ghetto and join partisan groups in the nearby forests.[1][2][3] Barbara Epstein estimates that perhaps half of them survived, and notes that all together, perhaps as many as 30,000 people tried to escape the Minsk Ghetto to join the partisans (but 20,000 of them could have died along the way)."

USHMM: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/minsk

"Resistance in Minsk
In August 1941, Jews established an anti-German underground in the Minsk ghetto. Members organized escapes from the ghetto and formed partisan units in the forests to the southeast and northwest of Minsk. Jews from Minsk established seven different partisan units."

Clearly the belief was that the Jewish ghetto was a massive safety risk.
I do not agree with your position that the presence of the massive Jew ghetto[s] in Minsk had absolutely no impact whatsoever on the [illegal] partisan/terrorist problem in that region. It appears, rather, that you're grasping for straws after being exposed as having ZERO physical evidence in support of your conspiracy theory: viewtopic.php?t=14850

And all the non-employable Jews were killed, including children

So what? That's to be expected in response to partisan/terrorist activity (reprisals). Shooting the women and children first, publicly, so everyone can see it. That's to discourage further terrorist activity.
These groups are also expected to be victims from bombings of civilian centers. Bombings that were carefully planned and deliberately implemented multiple times, despite the knowledge of elderly/female/child victims.

[Hektor]

Sorry I meant to answer this. The Kube document shows that yes, genocide was policy, at least in Belarus. As Mattogno says, it was justified (from their perspective), but genocide nonetheless

Where does the document show this, again?

"In the area of Minsk county Jewry has been completely eliminated"

Planned, systematic killing by multiple uncoordinated agencies: "Without contacting me, the Army Rear Zone Command liquidated 10,000 Jews, whose systematic elimination had in any case been planned by us."

Elderly Jews, children, those unable to work, German (so non-Yiddish , non-Russian speaking) deemed political threat : "In the city of Minsk about 10,000 Jews were liquidated on July 28 and 29. Of these 6,500 were Russian Jews mainly old men, women and children and the rest Jews incapable of work, who were sent to Minsk in November of last year by order of the Fuehrer, mainly from Vienna, Bruenn, Bremen and Berlin."

Stated desire by highest civilian office and SD to kill the employable Jews after they can be replaced by other workers: "Naturally I and the SD would like it best if Jewry in the Generalbezirk of Byelorussia was finally eliminated after their labor is no longer required by the Wehrmacht. For the time being the essential requirements of the Wehrmacht, the main employer of Jewry, are being taken into consideration."

Perhaps one might argue that these Jews were not being killed, rather liquidation/elimination means they were resettled somewhere else, but Mattogno sees these actions as brutal "massacres", probably because they dovetail with separately documented EG killings.

I'd appreciate, if you could also post the document (I can read German) and not just claim what it says.

The bone of contention isn't that there were no execution of Jews in that area. The point is that anything that MAY related to execution was added to it. "Liquidierung" is such a term. Actually stemming from commercial law.

The deception likes to work with this. Pick up documents that say something harsh relating to Jews and then assume that it proves physical killing on a large scale.

[borjastick]

‘Oh what a tangled web we weave/When first we practice to deceive’ means that when you lie or act dishonestly you are initiating problems and a domino structure of complications which eventually run out of control.

This quote sums up what most of the holocaust stories and claims is about. People get carried away with lying and jews being jews they tell stories, always have. Their whole religion is based on stories and odd claims. When it comes to their claims in the holocaust they have told massive porky pies and then they change them to suit the feelings and evidence of the time. This thread is a classic example of that.

For those who are not sure about this behaviour by the jews (mainly the Thirteenth Tribe) just look at what they do continuously in israel today.