Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

[curioussoul]

Where else would they have come from? Western Europe.

Here's the problem, buddy: show me the records of Jews from Western Europe being transported directly to Distrikt Galizien without passing through a Reinhard camp. There are Jews from places like Vienna and Terezín who were deported straight to the occupied eastern territories, but they ended up in Belarus and places like Minsk and Maly Trostenets. Roser's testimony is only compatible with the revisionist hypothesis - namely, Jews being transited through the Reinhard camps and ending up scattered in various locations east of Poland.

Then they were held in ghettos in the General Government (eg @ Rawa Ruska) and sent to the Reinhard camps. This is expressed in the Goebbels diary entry I quoted earlier.

Rawa-Ruska is located to the east of the Reinhard camps. If they were slated for extermination, it makes no sense for them to have been deported to a locality east of the Reinhard camps, only for them to later be deported a short distance west to be gassed. The entire purpose of the Reinhard camps, according to the official storyline, was to gas Jews deported from Poland. As pointed out earlier, there were Jews in Rawa-Ruska who were deported west to a Reinhard camp, but that makes sense only within the framework of the revisionist hypothesis, where these camps actually served a real logistical and bureaucratic purpose (confiscation, registration, delousing, sorting, transit). These Jews, naturally, would not have been processed in a Reinhard camp before they ended up in Rawa-Ruska, meaning they were either native Ukrainian/Polish Jews, or Jews who were evacuated east by the Soviets after Operation Barbarossa, and later ended up in German hands. It's also conceivable that labor requirements in the west prompted the deportation of Jews already present in Ukraine back to the west.

The biggest problem with your unfounded speculations regarding the westward transports of Jews to the Reinhard camps is the confounding fact that the Germans never bothered to deport the huge numbers of Jews present in Volhynia, Podolia and Brest Litowsk to Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka. In the case of Volhynia, Belzec was located a mere 60 km away. Instead, these Jews are claimed to have been gradually worn down through shootings in scattered locations all over Ukraine, despite the fact that an industrial murder factory had been specifically set up a stone's throw away.

I'm sure there are some deportation records of this happening, but it seems like a minor aspect of the history so research would be tough and I don't have a lot of time right now.

I'd like to see those records. For the moment, the most plausible explanation is that these Jews ended up in Rawa-Ruska by being processed through a Reinhard camp.

You're right, this doesn't contradict the revisionist narrative, which is that the Reinhard camps had an important function in terms of property appropriation and delousing for Jews slated for resettlement further East. What I'm saying is no evidence exists of this further east resettlement.

Roser's testimony, and other similar sources for the presence of "gassed" Jews in the occupied eastern territories, east of the Reinhard camps, from Western Europe and elsewhere, is proof enough.

[bombsaway]

Rawa-Ruska is located to the east of the Reinhard camps. If they were slated for extermination, it makes no sense for them to have been deported to a locality east of the Reinhard camps, only for them to later be deported a short distance west to be gassed.

Your argument here (they went through the Reinhard camps first) seems to be hinging on the improbability of a 10 mile detour (the distance of Rawa Ruska to Belzec). This seems woefully inadequate to me, but we can agree to disagree on this point. I have nothing more to say here if that is the extent of your argument.

Here's the problem, buddy: show me the records of Jews from Western Europe being transported directly to Distrikt Galizien without passing through a Reinhard camp.

Rawa Ruska wasn't in Distrikt Galizien during this time. It was incorporated into the GG in 1941.

[curioussoul]

It's humorous how much ink deniers spill over resettlement of Jews during the war while never addressing the fundamental issue: What happened to the 1.4 million Jews sent to the Reinhardt camps? Kues' work for example is an ocean of non sequiturs.

Ironic, considering the fact that Holocaust affirmers have spilled oceans of ink trying to explain how the Jews were murdered in gas chambers, while never addressing the fundamental issue: where are the bodies of these 1.4 million Jews sent to the Reinhard camps, and in what universe is it logical, probable, plausible and practical for the Germans to have hidden away so many corpses in an almost comically ludicrous fashion? Just think of the Aktion 1005 story: a mere few hundred men are claimed to have covered an area approximating some 1.3 million square kilometers to unearth and cremate 2.5 million corpses over the course of a few months. Need I say more?

As I mentioned in the debate with Dalton: an explanation with incomplete evidence (in this case the incomplete but still colossal physical evidence of the death of the 1.4 million Jews, as well as all the testimonial and documentary evidence) is superior to an explanation with zero physical evidence (resettlements of Reinhardt Jews).

Also, there are no genocides or wars where we exhume all the bodies and do a "skull count."

Quite the contrary. In this particular historical debate, two explanations are pitted against one another, one of which (extermination) can be practically ruled out based on a simple reference to the laws of physics and Ockham's razor - not to mention the absolute trainwreck that is the "eyewitnesses", whereas the other hypothesis (resettlement) is not only documented with reams of contemporaneous documentation but also proven by train records, diary entries, testimonies, news reports and empirical evidence.

Your insane reference to "skull counts" in no way invalidates the basic premise of the revisionist argument: the proportional difference between confirmed mass graves of Jewish victims in Eastern Europe and the claimed death tolls for the Holocaust are so vastly disproportionate and so astronomically disparate that they're not even in the same realm of reality. No one is claiming that we need to do a skull count and autopsy on 6 million corpses; but if the Holocaust affirmers want their claims to be taken seriously, they need to demonstrate that 6 million corpses were actually done away with, and demonstrate that what remains (mass graves, ashes, cremation residue) even comes close to the official figure.

This is another reason why Dalton was able to deal with you so easily. Because your claims are so utterly ludicrous and implausible, a mere reference to common sense and critical thinking razes most of your arguments. What remains are nothing but far-fetched hypotheses and conspiracy theories based on wishful thinking and Holocaust priming.

[fireofice]

In a speech in Bad Tölz, before SS-Junkers on November 23, 1942, Himmler said:

“The Jewish question in Europe has also completely changed. In a Reichstag speech the Führer once said: Should Jewry instigate an international war to the extermination of the Aryan peoples, then it is not the Aryan peoples who will be exterminated but Jewry. The Jew is evacuated from Germany; today he lives in the east and works on our roads, railroads, and so on. This process has been carried out consistently, but without cruelty.”

On November 18, 1943, in a speech given in Krakow before SS leaders and officials of the General Gouvernement, Himmler spoke of:

“[…] these 16 million foreign peoples, whose numbers were once made even larger by an enormous number of Jews, who of course now have emigrated or been brought to the east. […]”

On December 16, 1943, in a speech in Weimar given before the commanders of the Kriegsmarine (German navy), Himmler maintained that:

“Such and so many Jews were brought to the east. Migrations of peoples that we have given great names to in history have taken place at this breakneck speed. […]”

Treblinka—Extermination Camp or Transit Camp? by Carlo Mattogno, Jürgen Graf pages 255 & 256

These statements clearly indicate that Jews were being brought to the east alive. If you think their statements are not accurate, then neither can you use Nazi documents to say "deported to the east = killed in a camp". That's not fair. Either take their statements as a whole, in which case they were deported alive to the east, or disregard it as a whole, in which case you can't argue we "don't know where they went" since the mass deportations themselves can't have said to have happened.

[curioussoul]

It's been brought to my attention that Matt has once again been (literally) spamming the 4chan "/pol/" imageboard with links to his own blog late at night. Because he is painfully irrelevant in the anti-revisionist space, has proven himself completely unable to hold up in an intellectual environment, and has no relevant credentials or accomplishments in regards to the Holocaust, it appears he has resorted to trying to boost his profile through sheer brute force by spamming his blog late at night on the literal slums of the internet, while abandoning actual historiographical pursuits. Just a month ago he promised to pretend to care about other history as well, but his obsession with somehow trying to debunk revisionist arguments proved too fanatical to overcome. Of course, if he was actually interested in history or the Holocaust, he would publish real research papers proving his point, as revisionists have done for decades through painstaking archival research and at great personal cost. Thanks to the anonymous helper who sent me the screenshots. You know who you are.

These internet-based charlatans come and go, but rarely win an argument or prove a point, or offer anything of value or permanence to the historical discourse. This time, the obsession with "proving the Holocaust" seems to have gone to his head... Are you alright there, Matt? About time to touch some grass, maybe?

[HistorySpeaks]

Curioussoul, if you want to engage with me please stop making personal attacks supported by no evidence. I did not make those posts about Mike or Veronica, both of whom have plenty of obsessives online willing to post news or stories about them.

[HistorySpeaks]

BTW I have posted the next round of my Dalton debate. https://historyspeaks.substack.com/p/hi ... s-his-case

The funniest part of curioussoul's screenshot is that he could have found posts I did make (I do attempt to circulate my content), but found a bunch I didn't. (I did post "Mike Enoch's weak knees," but not this latest piece confirming a debate time. And the Mike Enoch's weak knees post was apparently reposted by obsessives without my knowledge; I know because I searched this archive last time you brought it up.. )

My audience is small but significant; I have 1,100 twitter followers and my Dalton debate got many thousands of unique substack views, as have my YouTube videos. Some of these people have posted without my knowledge to 4chan; others have said publicly that they were going to post on pol about the Mike Enoch stuff. Of course I also try to promote my work.

It is weird how you appeal to credentialism when you are an anon, and also strange that you are devoted to embarrassing me personally to the extent that you are making false and unsupported charges.

[curioussoul]

Not only do the posts contain your exact verbiage and almost direct copy-pastes of your own thread titles, and the exact image files used on your own blog, but they also contain almost complete paragraphs of faulty arguments you made on your blog about the Reinhard camps.

I'll leave it up to the readers to decide whether it's plausible that "fans" of Mike Enoch would post links to a random Substack blog claiming he backed out of a debate, or whether fans of "Veronica" - a person who has not been relevant since 2017 - would likewise post links to a random, practically-unknown Substack blog claiming she's now a Holocaust affirmer.

Edit: Unsurprisingly, Matt made a new post admitting that he was indeed posting on 4chan's "/pol/" sewer about Mike - just not the particular threads point out by me and my source. Sure Matt, sure thing.

Edit 2: Oh, and if you want to have a serious debate about the Holocaust, this might just be the place for you. Wouldn't you say? We can discuss anything you'd like in detail, without the nonsensical word limits. There are plenty of users on here willing to debunk the historiographical slop you're spewing on that blog of yours.

[HistorySpeaks]

I am happy to leave to other users whether you have proved that, of the many thousands of people who have provably read my substack, I made these threads on 4chan.

Can we continue discussing the subject of this thread now, which is my debate with Dalton? I just posted my closing statement. https://historyspeaks.substack.com/p/hi ... s-his-case

[HistorySpeaks]

Not only do the posts contain your exact verbiage and almost direct copy-pastes of your own thread titles, and the exact image files used on your own blog, but they also contain almost complete paragraphs of faulty arguments you made on your blog about the Reinhard camps. .

Neither the Enoch screenshots nor the Veronica ones contain any quotes from me about Reinhardt, so you are being misleading at best. Of course all the posts used an image from my substack; the whole point of their post was linking to my Substack. Thousands of people have read my Substack, many of them obsessive weirdos who lurk on sites like pol. (You would fall into that category fwiw.)

And, plenty of people are obsessed with Mike and Veronica; if you google the 4plebs archive you are referencing you'll find plenty of pasta threads posts about Mike. Veronica got literal millions of YT viewers back in the day.

I'm done responding to your false charges. Let us please return to the purpose of this thread, which is my debate with Dalton. (Another irony of your argument that nobody reads my blog, and therefore that all instances sharing it on pol must be me, is that this thread-which is about something going on on my substack-was started by someone else, and has over 4,000 views on CODOH alone.)

[michael_luna_94]

As I mentioned in the debate with Dalton: an explanation with incomplete evidence (in this case the incomplete but still colossal physical evidence of the death of the 1.4 million Jews, as well as all the testimonial and documentary evidence) is superior to an explanation with zero physical evidence (resettlements of Reinhardt Jews).

Also, there are no genocides or wars where we exhume all the bodies and do a "skull count."

What physical evidence is there for the 1.4 million Jews that were allegedly killed at the Reinhardt Camps? Apparently it is colossal, that would be news to me

[Hektor]

As I mentioned in the debate with Dalton: an explanation with incomplete evidence (in this case the incomplete but still colossal physical evidence of the death of the 1.4 million Jews, as well as all the testimonial and documentary evidence) is superior to an explanation with zero physical evidence (resettlements of Reinhardt Jews).

Also, there are no genocides or wars where we exhume all the bodies and do a "skull count."

What physical evidence is there for the 1.4 million Jews that were allegedly killed at the Reinhardt Camps? Apparently it is colossal, that would be news to me

If it is so colossal, why do exterminationists always report to the 'where did they go, if they weren't gassed' fallacy?
Please note that they were passing their narrative on for decades without even bothering about physical evidence.

Only after Revisionists hammered on the issue and I'd guess that people heard about the problem in private conversations, Exterminationists started to bother about 'physical evidence'.... Now that people died in e.g. Belzec isn't exactly unreasonable. They may have had a quarantine area for examples and it's plausible that this had a increase death rate. Hundreds or perhaps thousands of dead aren't exactly off the mark there. What happened to the dead. Burned buried and disposed of in the field isn't implausible. Whether human remains in the area are actually stemming from this, is a totally different matter. They can be from the pre-war area, but also from the post war area. And actually a concentration camp site would have to be the ideal site to dispose of corpses in the Communist era. If somebody found something there, they always could blame shift on 'the fascist', which nowadays seems to be the dominant thought and dogma within the extreme left.

[HistorySpeaks]

Dalton has posted his closing statement, and with that our debate has now ended.

[michael_luna_94]

Thanks for the updates and doing the debate. I think it's very healthy to discuss these things in the open (well, as close to open as is allowed these days).

[HistorySpeaks]

The first parts of the debate were getting many thousands of views. The audience dwindled by the end to only several hundred unique viewers per piece.

To some extent this was inevitable: people stop reading. But a big reason for that is Elon Musk's decision to shadow ban any posts with substack links (or even the word "substack" mentioned).

This was a big impediment because most of my followers are twitter-based and simply follow me from there to other platforms.