Mass Grave Found near Soldau (?)

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Re: Mass Grave Found near Soldau (?)

Postby Merlin300 » 10 months 2 weeks ago (Wed Jul 20, 2022 9:09 pm)

Mongol wrote:

Runo said that the bodies were piled on top of logs, but Jankowski said that logs were put on top of the bodies: "The prisoners were digging up the graves, taking out the corpses and putting them on a pile, with the layer of corpses covered with a layer of logs. The piles were then poured over with tar, oil and gasoline and then burned." But at least in some photos I found of Hindu cremation pyres, pieces of wood are placed both below and above the body (https://www.google.com/search?q=hindu%20cremation%20pyre&tbm=isch).

In Mattogno's book about Bełżec, he estimated that an open air cremation would produce about 6 times as much wood ash as human ash (https://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=9):

>
> From all this it becomes obvious that the amount of ash actually located in the graves is absolutely incompatible with the cremation of 600,000 corpses.

So I wonder if they found 17 tons of ash in Soldau, did it only have minimal traces of wood ash? Did the Nazis have some way to separate the wood ash when they burned the corpses? Or was the ash that was found at Soldau mixed with wood ash but they only reported the weight of the human ash?


First thank you for all your research on Soldau. A valiant effort to sort out the tales of the Believers!

Many tales are mere propaganda babbling about "industrial scale" cremation with impossible claims of self burning bodies etc.
No one seems to have found traces of tar, oil, or gasoline in the mix.
As Mattogno pointed out, use of wood to cremate bodies results in much more cremation remains.

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Re: Mass Grave Found near Soldau (?)

Postby Mongol » 10 months 2 weeks ago (Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:53 pm)

In the photos from both 2019 and 2022, it looks like they either left a bit of ashes at the bottom of the excavation, or that they dumped some ashes on the ground after they had dug the hole. But if you look at the photo below from 2019, it looks more like they just threw the ashes on the ground, because the ashes form splat-like patterns that expand out radially so that their boundaries are circular in shape. But in the pattern of distribution of the ashes, I can't see any scoop marks or sharp boundaries where you could see that part of the ashes would have been removed from the ground:

Image

The area of ashes in the other "mass grave" from 2022 also has rounded corners, like what would happen if you dropped a series of small piles of ash on the ground so that they expanded out radially when they hit the ground:

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The image below from 2022 shows the layer of ashes in what are supposed to be two different mass graves. In both graves, the ashes are at the same level as the surrounding sand on three different sides, and the terrain underneath the ashes has similar shape as the surrounding sandy terrain (so there are parts where the thin layer of ashes climbs up an incline at the same spot where there's an incline in the sandy terrain):

Image

I didn't find any photos from either 2019 or 2022 of the ashes they are supposed to have collected that were not left on the ground (apart from maybe one photo from 2022 where they are weighing a bag whose weight is shown as 17.18 kg, but you can't even tell if the bag contains ashes or not) (https://gdansk.ipn.gov.pl/pl2/aktualnosci/167903,Komunikat-ws-odkrycia-niemieckiej-zbrodni-w-Dzialdowie-Gdansk-13-lipca-2022.html).

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Re: Mass Grave Found near Soldau (?)

Postby Lamprecht » 10 months 2 weeks ago (Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:20 pm)

Mongol wrote:In Mattogno's book about Bełżec, he estimated that an open air cremation would produce about 6 times as much wood ash as human ash (https://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=9):

[...]

So I wonder if they found 17 tons of ash at Białuty, did it only have minimal traces of wood ash? Did the Nazis have some way to separate the wood ash when they burned the corpses? Or was the ash that was found at Białuty mixed with wood ash but they only reported the weight of the human ash?

If only 1/7 of the weight of ash is human remains, that's about 5,500 pounds. Cremated human remains are on average about 5 lbs (PMID: 15461087) so that would be about 1,100 people. Most likely they did not factor in that most of the ash would be from fuel, rather than human remains, so their estimate is exaggerated by quite a lot.

There's also the situation of moisture getting into the ash from rain soaking into the soil, adding additional weight. This does not look dry:
Image
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
— Herbert Spencer


NOTE: I am taking a leave of absence from revisionism to focus on other things. At this point, the ball is in their court to show the alleged massive pits full of human remains at the so-called "extermination camps." After 8 decades they still refuse to do this. I wonder why...

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Re: Mass Grave Found near Soldau (?)

Postby Mongol » 10 months 2 weeks ago (Fri Jul 22, 2022 7:38 pm)

Merlin300 wrote:No one seems to have found traces of tar, oil, or gasoline in the mix.


I don't know if it makes sense to add tar to a cremation pyre, but the use of tar is a feature of several eyewitness accounts about Aktion 1005 that are quoted in Mattogno's book about the Einsatzgruppen. And to increase the heat of the fire for the combustion, you can also throw phosphorus bombs and hand grenades into the pyre (https://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=39):

> A few pages further along, Hoffmann quotes an excerpt from a book on Maly Trostenets by Paul Kohl, which contains a description of the "furnace" (ibid., p. 181):
> > "A pit about 8 x 8 and 3 m deep was dug, and a ramp was put in on one of the four walls, upon which the trucks with the victims could drive backward into the pit. Since the Red Army was constantly getting closer to Minsk, starting at the end of October we no longer buried the persons shot, but rather burned them immediately. To do so, a grid of railway rails was built above the ground, and the pit's walls were covered with metal plates. The whole thing was a gigantic furnace. To block the view, a 3m-high wooden fence was set up around the area with barbed wire, and signs were posted saying 'No Entry! Trespassers Will Be Shot!' The 30 workers who had built this furnace were the first to be shot and cremated in it upon completion. The victims brought there by truck were made to lie face down in the pit and were killed with a bullet in the back of the neck. To increase the heat of the fire for the combustion, tar was poured over the bodies and phosphorus bombs and hand grenades were thrown into the flames. [...] Some 50,000 people were shot and cremated in this furnace at Shashkovka until the end of June 1944, before the dissolution of the camp."

Merlin300 wrote:As Mattogno pointed out, use of wood to cremate bodies results in much more cremation remains.


It's hard to tell how much remains there's supposed to be, because I didn't find photos of the tons ashes that they are supposed to have dug up in either 2022 or 2019. And it could be that they only reported the weight of the human ashes and not the wood ash, because for example Tomas Jankowski from the Institute of National Remembrance said that "almost 17 tons of human ashes were revealed" (so he specifically said that the weight of approximately 17 tons refers to human ashes) (https://gdansk.ipn.gov.pl/pl2/aktualnos ... -2022.html).

But I think the excavations are fake for the following reasons:

- In the photos from both 2019 and 2022, the thin layer of ashes over the sand looks like it was thrown on the sand after they dug the pit, and not like it consisted of the remnants of ashes at the bottom of a grave.
- The excavation in 2022 was in the same location as the excavation in 2019, but they said that they only found 1.5 tons of ashes in 2019, and they somehow missed the 17 tons that they are supposed to have found in 2022. Both in 2019 and 2022, the IPN's description of the excavation site matched the description of the site in Stefan Runo's testimony, even though the testimony of Stefan Runo gave the impression that the ashes of approximately 15,000 people were buried in a single grave, which he said was the grave where the bodies of Division V were exhumed from. In 2022, the IPN said that that they had found two graves, and presumably the ashes they found in 2019 were buried in a third grave. But even in 2022, the amount of ashes they said they found wasn't enough to account for the remains of 15,000 people, and 15,000 is even above the total death toll of Soldau cited by Wikipedia. Maksym Zembrzuski also testified that there were approximately 10,000 bodies buried in the forest of Komorniki near Soldau, and that "a greater number of prisoners were directed to the forest in Białuty".
- The inmates who helped with exhuming and burning the corpses are supposed to have been killed afterwards, but Stefan Runo testified in 1947 that he was employed in arranging wood on the piles on which the bodies were burned, so how did he survive to tell his story?

BTW I wonder how come the ashes they found were mixed with "scapulars and other Catholic medals, spoons, knives and crosses, wedding rings, rings, rosary and its elements, fragments of glasses, shoes and their elements, hairpins, buckles for belts and suspenders, a toothbrush, pre-war Polish coins of various denominations, a number of buttons, including a crowned eagle, bullets and scales, keys and many other personal items belonging to the victims of the Działdowo camp". There was supposedly even a 10 cm long crucifix among the remains. If the point of Aktion 1005 was to obliterate evidence of mass killings, then why did the Nazis bury those objects along with the ashes? Andrzej Ossowski who oversaw the excavation in 2022 said that the Nazis used "a ball mill to destroy all bone fragments", so the Nazis would've presumably needed to remove at least bigger metal objects before they ground the bones. But then why did they add the objects back with the ashes when they buried the ashes?

In Mattogno's book about the Einsatzgruppen, he quoted Leon Weliczker who said that part of the Aktion 1005 operation in the Janowska camp consisted of an "ash labor gang" which sifted through the ashes:

> Weliczker carefully describes the work of the "Aschkolonne" ("ash labor gang"):
> > "A few persons carry the ashes to the open space in a basket. Others come along and dump the ashes into their sieves and take them to the sifting location. The fine ashes pass through the sieves, but the bones and metal remain in the sieves. (These sieves are the kind normally used to sift flour at home). After the first screening, the persons sit with the sieve on a bench and inspect the ash to see if there were any metal bits. They then throw the remaining bones onto the ground in the clearing prepared with the [tomb] stones and, using beechwood stampers, smash them until they are shattered. They then clean the tombstone by throwing the remains of the unsmashed bone dust into the pile from which they first took the ashes. The ashes are then sifted through the sieves once again, and the bones that don't pass through the sieve this time are thrown back on the fire." (p. 56)

In a Soviet report titled "Information of the Extraordinary State Commission on Atrocities of the German-Fascist Invaders in the Territory of Lvov Region", it's also claimed that after bodies were burned as part of Aktion 1005, the ashes were sifted:

> The Soviet counteroffensive, it is said, induced the German authorities to wipe out the traces of their horrible crimes (ibid., pp. 221f.):
> > "Upon the orders of Germany's _Reichsminister_ Himmler and Major General of the SS Police Katzmann, in the June of 1943 special measures were undertaken to dig out and burn the bodies of the tortured and shot peaceful citizens, Soviet prisoners-of-war and citizens of foreign countries.
> > In Lvov the Germans set up a special Sonderkom[m]ando No. 1005 which consisted of 126 persons. The chief of that kom[m]ando was _Hauptsturmbannführer_ Scherliak [Schallock?], and his deputy - _Hauptsturmbannführer_ Rauch. The duties of the Sonderkommando included the digging out of the bodies of the peaceful residents and prisoners-of-war killed by the Germans and the burning of those bodies. The excavation and burning of the bodies was supervised by the SD-Scharführer Rauch and SD-Oberwachmeister Kapick. The bodies removed from the pits were placed on special platforms into piles, 1,200 to 1,600 bodies in each. The bodies were sprayed with tar, gasoline and then burned. The ashes and bones were sifted through special strainers with the purpose of collecting golden articles: dental bridges, false teeth, rings and watches. Witnesses Velichker, Khamaides and others testified that over the five months of their work in the 'death squad' 110 kilograms of gold was strained from the ashes of the bodies they had burned and sent by Germans to Germany.
> > The ashes were scattered in the fields and also dug in the ground; large bones were collected separately and crushed in the bone-thrasher which was designed to speed up the 'work.' The Germans did not manage to destroy the bonethrasher, it remained on the grounds of the former Janov camp as material evidence of the bloody crimes of the Hitlerite butchers. The chief of the bone-thrashing of the victims was a German, SD-Scharführer Elitko."

Yakov Abramovich Kaper also said that at Babi Yar, "The bones that remained after the burning of corpses were crushed with mortars, sieved through a mesh, mixed with sand and scattered with ashes, leveling off the road." David Iosifovich Budnik said that at Babi Yar, "Following the complete combustion of the furnace, we crushed the unburnt bones with special rammers and passed them through a sieve. In so doing, the Hitlerites gathered the objects of gold which appeared and, in particular, the gold fillings from the teeth. The inmates scattered the remaining ashes at the bottom of the ravine." And in Bialystok, an eyewitness said that after corpses had been exhumed and burned as part of Aktion 1005, "the bones were removed from the ashes and were ground to dust in large mortars. Then the ashes were sifted through sieves to discover melted crowns of teeth or the gold or silver objects that the murdered people may have had on their persons. Then the ashes were buried in the same pits from which the bodies had been taken for burning."

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Re: Mass Grave Found near Soldau (?)

Postby Mongol » 10 months 2 weeks ago (Fri Jul 22, 2022 10:30 pm)

I tried to align two aerial photos of the 2022 dig. In the later photo, the area where they have dug so the sand is exposed has been expanded further to the right, but in the earlier photo the sand was already exposed in the area where they found the supposed mass graves with the ashes. In the earlier photo, they had already dug almost to the depth where there's ash visible in the later photos, because the flat level they had dug at is the same as the level of the boundary between the two supposed graves. But there's no ashes visible yet, even though the level where they later found the ash is less than half a meter deeper:

Image

Here they are in the process of digging the "grave" which is shown on the left side in the aerial photos, and they have almost dug to the depth where in later photos you can see a layer of ashes, but there's no ashes visible yet:

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In later photos, both "graves" look like they have a vertical wall with a sharp boundary on one side, and they have a short segment of a wall on a second side, but on the third and fourth side, the excavated area blends in with the sandy terrain so you cannot see where the area of the grave is supposed to end. However in the image above, the walls have not yet been formed, even though the team is the process of forming the rectangular depression of the other "grave" by digging with shovels.

Can you fit 17 tons of ashes here?

Image

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Re: Mass Grave Found near Soldau (?)

Postby Mongol » 10 months 2 weeks ago (Sat Jul 23, 2022 1:34 am)

Actually based on another piece of aerial footage that was included in a video from 2019, I think the spot where they dug in 2019 is slightly different from the place where they dug in 2022 (but they set up the tent at around the same place on both years):

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Re: Mass Grave Found near Soldau (?)

Postby Mongol » 10 months 2 weeks ago (Sat Jul 23, 2022 3:13 pm)

A Polish article I quoted earlier said: "On September 16, 1947, Maksym Zembrzuski, the mayor of the Filice commune, testified that there were about 10,000 bodies buried in Komorniki after collecting information from the inhabitants of the village of Komorniki and inspecting the area. The same witness claimed that a greater number of prisoners were directed to the forest in Białuty [9]." (https://docplayer.pl/19054121-Oboz-koncentracyjny-soldau-przyczynek-do-monografii.html)

At first I thought that Zembrzuski's testimony implied that the number of people who were buried in the forest in Białuty was more than approximately 10,000, so that there would've been another eyewitness who backed up Stefan Runo's claim that around 15,000 people were buried in Białuty. But I was able to find photos of the testimony of Zembrzuski (https://gazetaolsztynska.pl/dzialdowo/227966,porazajace-dowody-nazistowskiej-przeszlosci-koschowitza-i-gerlacha.html):

ImageImage

Actually what Zembrzuski said is that from June 1940 to September 1944, executions in the Komorniki forest were carried out only now and then and larger transports of execution were directed to the Białuty forest, but that from then on, most of the corpses of people who died in the camp were brought to the Komorniki forest. So it doesn't imply that the total number of people buried in Białuty was higher than the number of people buried in Komorniki:

> On September 16, 1947 in Działdowo, Member of the District Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes in Warsaw, acting under the decree of November 10, 1945 on the Main 1 District Commissions for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland (Journal of Laws of the Republic of Poland No. 51, item 293) and, under the delegation of the Main Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland of September 15, 1947, No. 1993/47, she heard the below-mentioned witness without swearing.
> After informing the witness about criminal liability for false testimony and about the content of Articles 107 and 115 of the Code of Criminal Procedure, the witness testified as follows:
> > Name - Maksym Zembrzuski
> > Parents - Adam and Aleksandra née Podoska
> > Born - December 16, 1882, in the village of Smolarzu, commune of Jakowiec, district of Mława
> > Education - 7 classes of elementary school
> > By profession - a farmer
> > Belonging to the state and nationalities - Polish
> > Inhabited - Filice village, Filice commune, Działdowo poviat.
> In the fall of 1945, as the mayor of the Filice commune, I collected information about the places of mass executions of prisoners in the Działdowo camp. I collected reports from the inhabitants of the village of Komorniki: Zawieruchy Leon, Krajewska Klara and Rozalia, Judycki. On the basis of the accounts, I have established the following: from February 1940 to June 1940, on Mount Komorniki, in a forest owned by Bielecka, Brandt and others, the Germans from Selbschutz from Działdowo and the workers of the Działdowo camp carried out mass executions of the camp vigins transported in cars from the camp. From June 1940 until September 1944, executions in the Komorniki forest were carried out only now and then. Larger transports of execution were directed to the Białuty forest. From then on, most of the corpses of people who died in the camp were brought to the Komorniki forest, or there where they were murdered by car and sleigh. At the moment, there is no exhumation of graves in the Komorniki forest. However, on the basis of the testimony of the inhabitants of Komorniki, and due to the appearance of the area (due to the "fallen ground of dark green grass strips), the places of the graves can be approximated. One of the graves is probably 40 meters long. Based on the external appearance of the area and the relationship between Kańców Komorniki, I suppose that there are about 10,000 bodies buried in the Komorniki forest. The dates of individual executions are not established. The Komorniki forest has an area of up to 5 hectares. All graves are masked, some are covered with grass and bushes. On the basis of the reports, I found out that the prisoners from the Działdowo camp were transported to the place of execution by three trucks painted black. Everyone knew these cars as the cars of the Działdowo camp. In the later period, the bodies were also brought in by trucks or in carts.

Untranslated:

> Dnia 16.IX.1947 r. w Działdowie Członek Okręgowej Komisji Badania Zbrodni Niemieckich w Warszawie p.o. Sędzia Halina Hereńko działając na mocy Dekretu z dnia 10.XI.1945 r. o Głównej 1 Okręgowych Komisjach Badania Zbrodni Niemieckich w Polsce (Dz. U.R.P. Nr. 51, poz. 293) i na mocy delegacji Głównej Komisji Badania Zbrodni Niemieckich w Polsce z dnia 15.IX.1947 r. Nr.1993/47, przesłuchała niżej wymienionego w charakterze świadka bez przysięgi.
> Po uprzedzeniu świadka o odpowiedzialności karnej za fałszywe zeznanie, oraz o treści art.107 i 115 k.p.k. świadek zeznał co następuje:
> > Nazywam się - Maksym Zembrzuski
> > Syn - Adama i Aleksandry z domu Podoska
> > Urodzony - 16.XII.1882 r. we wsi Smolarzu, gm.Jakowiec, pow.Mława
> > Z wykształcenia - VII oddziałów szkoły powszechnej
> > Z zawodu - rolnik
> > Przynależ.pań. i narodow. - polskiej
> > Zamieszkały - wieś Filice,gm.Filice, powiat Działdowo.
> Jesienią 1945 r. jako wójt gminy Filice, zbierałem wiadomości odnośnie miejsc masowych egzekucji więźniów obozu w Działdowie. Zbrałem relacje od mieszkańców wsi Komorniki: Zawieruchy Leona, Krajewskiej Klary i Rozalii, Judyckiego. Na podstawie relacji ustaliłem co następuje:począwszy od lutego 1940 r.do czerwca 1940 r. na górze Komorniki w lasku stanowiącym własność Bieleckiej, Brandt'a i innych, Niemcy z Selbschutz'u z Działdowa i pracownicy obozu w Działdowie dokonywali masonych egzekucji wiginiów obozu dowożonych samochodami s obozu. Od czerwca 1940r. do września 1944 r. egzekucje na terenie lasu w Komornikach odbywały się rsadko. Większe transporty egzekucyjne kierowano do lasu Bialuckiego. Do lasu Komornickiego.przywożono odtąd przeważnie zwłoki.osób zmarłych w obozie, lub tam na miejsou zamordowanych samochodem i saniami. W tej chwili w lesie w Komornikach ekshu macja grobów nie jest przeprowadzona. Jednakże na podstawie zeznań mieszkańców Komorniki, oraz ze względu na wygląd terenu (za"padnięty grunt pasma ciemno zielonej trawy) miejsca grobów w przy bliżeniu można ustalić. Jeden z grobów ma prawdopobonie 40 mt.dkugości. Na podstawie zewnętrznego wyglądu terenu, oraz relacji mies kańców Komorniki, przypuszczam, iż w lesie w Komornikach pochować nych jest około 10.000 zwłok. Daty poszczególnych egzekucji nie są ustalone. Lasek Komornicki ma obszar do 5 he. Mogiły wszystkie są maskowane, porosłe trawą na niektórych posadzone są krzaki. Na podstawie relacji ustaliłem, iż więźniów z obozu w Działdowie dowoziły na miejsce egzekucji trzy samochody ciężarowe, pomalowane na kolor czarny. Samochody te wszyscy znali jako samochody obozu w Działdowie. V późniejszym okresie zwożono zwłoki także naniami lub furami.

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Re: Mass Grave Found near Soldau (?)

Postby Iris » 10 months 2 weeks ago (Sat Jul 23, 2022 3:42 pm)

As a result, two mass graves have been discovered so far: one 28 meters long and the other 12 meters long, both about 3 meters deep.


Image

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"3 meters deep"? How far down did they have to dig to get to the "ashes"?

Image

Lots of rocks in those "17.5 tons of human remains."

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Re: Mass Grave Found near Soldau (?)

Postby Mongol » 10 months 2 weeks ago (Sat Jul 23, 2022 4:01 pm)

Actually I don't know if the two rectangular areas they dug in 2022 are supposed to be part of two different graves after all, because I had ignored this comment about the dimensions of the graves: "As a result, two mass graves have been discovered so far: one 28 meters long and the other 12 meters long, both about 3 meters deep." (https://plock.gosc.pl/doc/7693802.Niezatarta-zbrodnia-wojenna) So it could be that the second grave refers to the site that they dug in 2019.

However judging from the photo below, the bottom of the hole they dug in 2019 was around 2 meters or less below the level of the surrounding undisturbed ground, and at that depth, there was only a thin layer of ashes remaining at the bottom of the hole:

Image

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Re: Mass Grave Found near Soldau (?)

Postby Mongol » 10 months 2 weeks ago (Sat Jul 23, 2022 6:15 pm)

Iris wrote:How far down did they have to dig to get to the "ashes"?


This thin layer of ash:

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Is at the spot where they're digging with shovels here:

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And the layer of ash is maybe a meter below the level of the surrounding undisturbed ground, or maybe even less.

BTW I now found another smoking gun. There's one spot where ash was not visible at an earlier stage of the dig, but where later they mysteriously found ash:

Image

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Re: Mass Grave Found near Soldau (?)

Postby Mongol » 10 months 2 weeks ago (Sat Jul 23, 2022 9:05 pm)

The Wikipedia article about Soldau referenced this blog post about the Białuty forest: http://duoart.blogspot.com/2011/09/mroczna-historia.html. The post says that "all victims were buried in five nameless pits located on the right side of the paved road":

> Today we want to tell you the dark story of "our forest". We write "our" because we live in it. Białuty forest is a complex of several hundred hectares of forest on the t/z Brama Mazur. Few people in Poland know (for some reason) that this forest during the occupation was the site of the murder of about 20,000 people, of several nationalities. From the nearby Działdowo (KL Soldau), this paved road, built by the prisoners of the camp by the Gestapo in order to facilitate access to the forest, transported prisoners from 1940 to 1944 to the place of execution.
> When the trucks were arriving at the place, the SS team responsible for efficiently carrying out the "action" left the office part (the pit below is the place where the large dugout performed this role) left.
> Over a period of over 4 years (as historians claim today), about 20,000 people of Polish, Jewish and German nationality were brought to the pits in the Białuty forest (data from the 1950s by 12,000 were underestimated).
> All victims were buried in five nameless pits located on the right side of the paved road.
> Today, these places are marked with memorial graves over which the Dwukoły Forestry Inspectorate took care of them. In fact, thanks to the foresters, this place was not overgrown with weeds and every All Souls' Day is beautifully cleaned - there are fresh flowers and burning candles.

In a photo included with the blog post, the road is paved with stones but it has grass growing through the middle:

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The site where they did the digs in 2022 and 2019 is next to a road which has grass growing in the middle, but from the aerial footage the site, it doesn't look like road is paved with stones. However the road might be paved with stones in only some parts, or they may have removed the stones since the photo above was taken. There is one small road which goes from the town Białuty to the direction of the city of Dzialdowo so that it passes through the large forest next to Białuty, but in a photo of one end of the road at Google Street View, it's a dirt road that isn't paved with stones (https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2132472 ... 312!8i6656).

A memorial site in the forest says in Polish: "In this forest, in 1940-1944, the Nazis carried out mass executions of the civilian population of prisoners of the German concentration camp in Działdowo and its vicinity. About 12,000 people were brutally killed. Among them. 58 priests from the Diocese of Płock and about 1,500 people of Jewish nationality. In 1944, as part of 'Aktion 1005', the Nazis began to blur the traces of the crimes, the graves were emptied, the corpses were burned, and a forest was planted in the entire area of execution." (https://www.helpmecovid.com/pl/28230_la ... ce-pamieci) The memorial site is given the coordinates @53.2002599,20.3522805, but I don't think the coordinates are exact, because in the satellite imagery at Google Maps, that spot is surrounded by trees on all sides with no openings, but there's a small chapel at the memorial site. So I'm still not sure about the exact location of either the memorial site or the site where they did the digs in 2022 and 2019.

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Re: Mass Grave Found near Soldau (?)

Postby hermod » 10 months 2 weeks ago (Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:21 am)

Mongol wrote:The Wikipedia article about Soldau referenced this blog post about the Białuty forest: http://duoart.blogspot.com/2011/09/mroczna-historia.html. The post says that "all victims were buried in five nameless pits located on the right side of the paved road":

> Today we want to tell you the dark story of "our forest". We write "our" because we live in it. Białuty forest is a complex of several hundred hectares of forest on the t/z Brama Mazur. Few people in Poland know (for some reason) that this forest during the occupation was the site of the murder of about 20,000 people, of several nationalities. From the nearby Działdowo (KL Soldau), this paved road, built by the prisoners of the camp by the Gestapo in order to facilitate access to the forest, transported prisoners from 1940 to 1944 to the place of execution.


Talking about murder during a war or another is a big distortion & politically-motivated sissy propaganda. Wars are about killing other humans. The best killers, aka the victors, aka the writers of history books, often label the killings perpetrated by the other side as murders for obvious reasons, but that's just gross atrocity propaganda. There is no such a thing as murderers during a war (especially after the Allies of WWII abolished any distinction between enemy soldiers and enemy civilians with their flying crematories). There are only talented (i.e. victorious) and less talented (i.e. vanquished) killers. The whole war crime thing is not about crimes sensu stricto (anyway, the Allies of WWII have vastly demonstrated that the only real war crime of modern warfare is final defeat). It's only about the criminalization of warfare for the vanquished.
"[Austen Chamberlain] has done western civilization a great service by refuting at least one of the slanders against the Germans
because a civilization which leaves war lies unchallenged in an atmosphere of hatred and does not produce courage in its leaders to refute them
is doomed.
"

Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, on the public admission by Britain's Foreign Secretary that the WWI corpse-factory story was false, December 4, 1925

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Re: Mass Grave Found near Soldau (?)

Postby Mongol » 10 months 2 weeks ago (Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:27 am)

Stefan Runo testified that in 1944, they exhumed two mass graves in the Białuty forest which contained the bodies of approximately 15,000 people, and that after they burned the bodies, the ashes were buried in one of the mass graves. But according to an article which is used as a reference in the Wikipedia article about Soldau, witnesses said that mass graves (in plural) in the Białuty forest were opened in 1942 and not 1944, and that after the bodies were burned, the ashes were scattered across the fields and not buried (https://web.archive.org/web/20140903053 ... 4_druk.pdf):

> Pierwszy zmarł, prawdopodobnie na skutek pobicia, właśnie br. Antoni. O. Sylwiusz bardzo ciężko chorował i obawiano się, że warunki obozowe go dobiją, tym bardziej, że – jak informował rodzinę – „kopią nas, biją nas i jeszcze coś więcej”. W obozie panowała epidemia tyfusu, co skłoniło władze obozu do zmniejszenia liczby przetrzymywanej tam ludności. W lipcu 1941 r. zaczęły się wywózki więźniów, których dalszy los nie był znany. W nocy z 4 na 5 sierpnia wywieziono też i sześciu pasjonistów. Na drogę dostali od sióstr mszał z nadzieją, że w nowym miejscu pobytu będą mogli odprawiać Mszę Świętą. Jednak celem ich krótkiej podróży z obozu okazał się las między Działdowem a Mławą (Las Białucki), miejsce masowych egzekucji więźniów obozu działdowskiego. Wykrycie mordu katyńskiego przez Niemców dało im impuls do przemyślenia sprawy masowych pochówków. Według relacji świadków groby masowe w Lesie Białuckim w 1942 r. zostały otwarte, a zwłoki ekshumowane i spalone. Popioły rozwożono po polach.

Translated:

> The first one died, probably as a result of beating, just Br. Antoni. Father Sylwiusz was very seriously ill and it was feared that the camp conditions would kill him, the more so because - as he informed his family - "they are kicking us, they are beating us and something more." There was a typhus epidemic in the camp, which prompted the camp authorities to reduce the number of people held there. In July 1941, the deportations of prisoners began, their fate unknown. On the night of August 4-5, six passionists were also deported. The sisters gave them a missal for their journey, hoping that they would be able to celebrate Holy Mass in their new place of residence. However, the destination of their short journey from the camp turned out to be the forest between Działdowo and Mława (Białuty Forest), the site of mass executions of prisoners of the Działdowo camp. The discovery of the Katyn massacre by the Germans gave them an impulse to rethink the matter of mass burials. According to witnesses, the mass graves in the Białuty Forest were opened in 1942, and the bodies were exhumed and burned. The ashes were scattered across the fields.

However maybe the author of the article was mistaken about which forest the witnesses referred to, because the author wrote "the forest between Działdowo and Mława (Białuty Forest)", but the forest between Działdowo and Mława might actually refer to a different forest than the forest near Białuty:

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The Aktion 1005 operation is supposed to have lasted from June 1942 until late 1944. If they were already doing Aktion 1005 in Soldau in 1942, then why didn't they also exhume the bodies that Stefan Runo's testimony refers to? Stefan Runo's testimony gave the impression that the people whose bodies they exhumed were killed in 1940: "In 1940 mass executions of Poles and Jews took place in the forest, 3 km away from Białuty. I heard the shots. The German forester Kirschhorn, who is currently in Westphalia, informed me that about 15,000 Poles and Jews had been liquidated. The corpses laid in two graves: Branch I for Poles and Branch V for Jews." But it could be that that the figure of 15,000 wasn't limited to just the people who were killed in a mass execution in 1940 but that it also included people who were killed at other times.

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Re: Mass Grave Found near Soldau (?)

Postby Iris » 10 months 1 week ago (Wed Jul 27, 2022 3:58 pm)

Lamprecht wrote:
Mongol wrote:
There's also the situation of moisture getting into the ash from rain soaking into the soil, adding additional weight. This does not look dry:
Image


I was thinking the same thing. Check out the difference between the two photos:

Image

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Re: Mass Grave Found near Soldau (?)

Postby Mongol » 10 months 1 week ago (Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:28 pm)

Mongol wrote:So I'm still not sure about the exact location of either the memorial site or the site where they did the digs in 2022 and 2019.


I'm a moron. The location of the memorial site is marked on Google Maps:

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At the intersection of the road that leads to the memorial site, there's also a road sign that points to the site (https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1934692 ... 312!8i6656).

The Polish blog post I quoted earlier also said that "all victims were buried in five nameless pits located on the right side of the paved road" and that "today, these places are marked with memorial graves", and it included photos of some of the memorial graves (https://duoart.blogspot.com/2011/09/mroczna-historia.html). So if there were already memorial graves at the five spots where all of the victims were buried, then I wonder how come the IPN now found new mass graves in another part of the forest.

Stefan Runo said that the ashes of approximately 15,000 people were dumped into a mass grave where they had earlier buried the Jews from Division V. So if his testimony is correct, then the grave he mentioned would account for the majority of the approximately 20,000 people who were buried in the forest (or over 100% of the approximately 12,000 people that are mentioned in signs at the memorial site). So the existence of the grave mentioned by Runo should've been known to the people who constructed the memorial site, and they should've included Runo's grave as one of the five spots where "all victims" were buried (regardless of whether the five burial sites referred to the spots where the bodies were buried before exhumation or where the ashes where buried after Aktion 1005, since the grave mentioned by Runo was supposedly used for both purposes).

The Polish blog post also says that the bodies were burned on "huge piles of coal":

> A special "hellish darkness" is added to this place by the way in which the Germans tried to cover up the traces of their crimes at the end of AD 44. They were poured into huge piles of coal and burned to make it impossible to count the people killed (in the event of the defeat of the Third Reich). It was a top secret operation organized by the highest SS factors.

However Stefan Runo said: "I was then employed in arranging wood on the piles on which the bodies were burned." (https://docplayer.pl/19054121-Oboz-koncentracyjny-soldau-przyczynek-do-monografii.html) And the IPN said the following about the site they excavated in 2022: "The prisoners were digging up the graves, taking out the corpses and putting them on a pile, with the layer of corpses covered with a layer of logs. The piles were then poured over with tar, oil and gasoline and then burned. The works took about 4-8 weeks in total. After the graves were emptied and the corpses burned, the ash was buried." (https://gdansk.ipn.gov.pl/pl2/aktualnosci/167903,Komunikat-ws-odkrycia-niemieckiej-zbrodni-w-Dzialdowie-Gdansk-13-lipca-2022.html)

However I guess according to the Aktion 1005 lore it's plausible that they used both wood and coal, or that they used wood at other times and coal at other times, because Mattogno's book about the Einsatzgruppen mentions an instance of Aktion 1005 in Belarus where they employed both coal and wood to burn the bodies:

> A number of planks or wooden sticks were laid on top of this system of construction pits, with split wood on top. On top of this was an intermediate layer of pitch, mixed with bituminous coal, upon which the bodies dragged out of the grave by the work party were laid next to each other in a row. On the latter were laid, in the same sequence, wooden sticks, split wood, pitch and bituminous coal, and on top of this a layer of bodies.


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