Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

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Re: Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

Postby fireofice » 1 month 1 week ago (Wed May 03, 2023 2:08 am)

HistorySpeaks wrote:
fireofice wrote:The Jews were supposedly gassed on arrival. They were not emaciated. As for children:


It is true that not all of the cremated Jews would be emaciated or children, but the majority would be.

300,000 of the 1.1 milion Jewish deportees (between 25-30%) were Polish Jews; Polish Jews were in the overwhelming majority ghettoized and subjected to starvation diets, and were therefore abnormally thin (emaciated).

So we have 300,000 already the overwhelming majority of which were emaciated or children; hundreds of thousands more deportees were either children or (because they were deported to Auschwitz from other KLs in which they were underfed) emaciated. This easily works out to a majority of all deportees.

See: https://www.auschwitz.org/en/history/ca ... auschwitz/ for more info about where the Jewish Auschwitz deportees came from.

The Polish Jews that were deported to Belzec look pretty normal to me.
belzec.png
Polish Jews Deported to Belzec

https://archive.org/details/holocaust-h ... 3/mode/2up page 1113

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Re: Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

Postby HistorySpeaks » 1 month 1 week ago (Wed May 03, 2023 3:11 am)

You think this photo is an argument? Seriously?

You don't have a clear shot of the numerated people at all; it is impossible to determine how much of their figure is baggy clothing versus flesh. You have no idea from that picture whether these people, if you could see their bare skin, would appear emaciated or not.

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Re: Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

Postby curioussoul » 1 month 1 week ago (Wed May 03, 2023 4:35 am)

HistorySpeaks wrote:I'm happy to oblige you, and I hope you learn your lesson about not projecting. (It is you who was caught lying about my quotations being about bandits and Bolsheviks rather than Jews in general).

Michal Kula (Polish-Catholic prisoner):
"The third part of the column was movable. . . A can of Zyklon was poured from above into the distribution cone and thus a uniform distribution of the Zyklon on all four sides of the column was obtained. After evaporation of the gas the entire central column was withdrawn and the evaporated silica removed.”


As I pointed out in my original comment, Kula does not mention a wired canister that was lifted up through the roof. Instead, he claims that the entire inside part of the column - a device of which he was the self-styled builder - could be lifted up, and that it was topped off by a "cone". This design contrasts sharply to the one described by Tauber, who is the only relevant witness to ever bring up the "wired canisters".

I pointed all of this out in my original comment. It comes as no surprise that you intentionally overlooked this embarassing detail. As I said, your claim that "multiple witnesses" mentioned this peculiar extraction device is inaccurate.

Henryk Tauber (Sonderkommando):
"Inside the third mesh, there was a movable box, which we emptied of powder, using a wire, when the gas had already evaporated."


As I pointed out in my original comment - and as you conveniently ignored - Tauber was the only witness to describe this type of extraction device. In fact, the entire idea of a wired canister comes from his testimony! Given how you've now staked your entire narrative on the idea that the Zyklon B canisters could somehow be extracted from the gas chamber before all the hydrogen cyanide had evaporated, how do you explain the fact that only 1 single eyewitness ever mentioned this wired canister, and only 1 or 2 other witnesses mentioned extraction devices? All of the most relevant eyewitnesses simply claimed that the Zyklon B was thrown in through the roof, some even without mentioning the columns themselves.

Josef Erber (SS-Oberscharführer):
"In each of these gassing areas [of the crematoria [II and III] in Birkenau] were two ducts: in each duct, four iron pipes ran from the floor to the roof. These were encased with steel mesh wire and inside there was a tin canister with a low rim. Attached to this tin was a wire by which it could be pulled up to the roof. When the lids were lifted, one could pull up the tin canister and shake the gas crystals into it. Then the canister was lowered, and the lid closed."


As you know, Erber's testimony is exceedingly late. Unlike Kula and Tauber, who invented their testimonies immediately after the war, Erber's comment comes from 1981 and is thus practically useless from a historical point of view. Secondly, Erber's comment does not square with any other description of the introduction columns for Zyklon B. He described them as metal pipes with steel-mesh surroundings (I wonder how long steel-mesh would have lasted in a packed gas chamber) and with an inside containing a container pulled with a rope. Given that Kula is the self-styled builder of these devices, his testimony should be by far the most relevant one, but orthodox Holocaust historians have not settled on his version. Instead, as is often the case with pseudohistory such as the Holocaust, the official version is basically a jumbled mess of minor details taken from numerous different testimonies in order to create a plausible version of events. Additionally, Erber's letter mentions 2 "ducts" and "4 pipes", which is utterly incomprehensible and at odds with the most important witness statements and with the officially sanctioned story.

Yehuda Bacon:

"Und im Krematorium Nummer II, da waren zwei Gaskammern. Eine hinter der zweiten, und in jeder Gaskammer waren zwei solche Schächte, so wie ein Lift. Diese waren ungefähr 40 auf 40 Zentimeter, mit Stahlstangen und ringsherum mit festem Gitterdraht. Sie endeten über dem Plafond, und oben sah es aus – da habe ich es auch irgendwo aufgezeichnet –, so wie bei einer Kanalisation. Ja, so ein Deckel. Diesen hob man auf, und von oben schüttete man das Zyklon B rein." (I feel like this can be interpreted to mean removal.)


First of all, his name was Bakon, not Bacon (?!). Second of all, his comment relates to the purported lids on top of the roof, not to extraction devices. I have no idea why you would attempt to furnish Bakon's testimony in support of your imaginary wired canister hypothesis. Bakon's entire claim to fame is his testimony that he entered the fenced-off area of the Crematorium and walked on to the roof and saw the lids on top of the morgue. This despite the fact that the area was supposedly well-guarded and no one was allowed anywhere near the area of the Crematoria.

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Re: Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

Postby Hektor » 1 month 1 week ago (Wed May 03, 2023 6:07 am)

HistorySpeaks wrote:You think this photo is an argument? Seriously?

You don't have a clear shot of the numerated people at all; it is impossible to determine how much of their figure is baggy clothing versus flesh. You have no idea from that picture whether these people, if you could see their bare skin, would appear emaciated or not.



You are welcome to post a genuine photo of Jews in Belzec.

As far as people during WW2 go in terms of body condition. I'd expect that the food situation was rather dire at times. Simply because war and especially extended war disrupts the economy meaning that commerce and trade are shutting down, which leaves a lot of people without income. So I won't expect many overweight people. People that had no work (or refused to do work) would likely be more starved than others.

There was also food rationing. But that applies to food a lotted by government. If that was all you had to rely on, indeed this would become a problem. Fortunate where those that were in a concentration camp at least until the last month of the war. The situation may have been different from camp to camp and also could have changed over time.

The feeding and camp management situation is however not a subject that's popular with historiographers. Although I think there were plenty of records on this.

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Re: Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

Postby fireofice » 1 month 1 week ago (Wed May 03, 2023 10:05 am)

Hektor wrote:
HistorySpeaks wrote:You think this photo is an argument? Seriously?

You don't have a clear shot of the numerated people at all; it is impossible to determine how much of their figure is baggy clothing versus flesh. You have no idea from that picture whether these people, if you could see their bare skin, would appear emaciated or not.



You are welcome to post a genuine photo of Jews in Belzec.

As far as people during WW2 go in terms of body condition. I'd expect that the food situation was rather dire at times. Simply because war and especially extended war disrupts the economy meaning that commerce and trade are shutting down, which leaves a lot of people without income. So I won't expect many overweight people. People that had no work (or refused to do work) would likely be more starved than others.

There was also food rationing. But that applies to food a lotted by government. If that was all you had to rely on, indeed this would become a problem. Fortunate where those that were in a concentration camp at least until the last month of the war. The situation may have been different from camp to camp and also could have changed over time.

The feeding and camp management situation is however not a subject that's popular with historiographers. Although I think there were plenty of records on this.


To me it is just not clear how many people were emaciated in ghettos. Probably more than the rest of the population, but beyond that I'm just not sure. If HS has extra information on that, I am completely open to it. But just saying that they were emaciated and that's that, everything is explained, is not very convincing.

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Re: Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

Postby Hektor » 1 month 1 week ago (Wed May 03, 2023 11:40 am)

fireofice wrote:
Hektor wrote:
HistorySpeaks wrote:You think this photo is an argument? Seriously?

You don't have a clear shot of the numerated people at all; it is impossible to determine how much of their figure is baggy clothing versus flesh. You have no idea from that picture whether these people, if you could see their bare skin, would appear emaciated or not.


You are welcome to post a genuine photo of Jews in Belzec.
....

The feeding and camp management situation is however not a subject that's popular with historiographers. Although I think there were plenty of records on this.


To me it is just not clear how many people were emaciated in ghettos. Probably more than the rest of the population, but beyond that I'm just not sure. If HS has extra information on that, I am completely open to it. But just saying that they were emaciated and that's that, everything is explained, is not very convincing.


One would have to research this.
* I'm sure there were many Jews that suffered deprivation at that time.
* But there were also those that didn't.
* The disruption due to war, and changes in administration where hitting them probably harder than other parts of the population.

One would have to look at the administration practices and records of occupied Poland at the time. The conditions in pre-War Poland weren't ideal prior to WW2 neither. The country had some industry, but was mostly still more agrarian. The Jews in Poland were generally poor, with a larger group being middle-class to wealthy (not the majority).

Some photos from the Warsaw Ghetto:
Image
Image
Image

The people look mostly normally fed there. In fact some of the soldiers look a bit leaner. Could be that the food situation was sorted out in 1943, since the economy was reorganized until then.

There is of course various causes why people loose weight as well. It's not necessarily the unavailability of food.

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Re: Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

Postby HistorySpeaks » 1 month 1 week ago (Wed May 03, 2023 1:51 pm)

There was a study of starvation in the Warsaw ghetto carried out during the war: https://www.urologichistory.museum/coll ... ease-study

The Jewish councils also kept good records on the (extraordinary) percentage of ghetto inhabitants who died, largely from starvation.

Depending on how much access to the black market one had, some Jews did indeed have access to better rations than others. Also until the end of 1941 the Germans allowed the JDC to distribute food and aid.

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Re: Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

Postby HistorySpeaks » 1 month 1 week ago (Wed May 03, 2023 3:12 pm)

It should also be noted that there are various pictures depicting starving persons in the Warsaw Ghetto, particularly beginning in early 1942 (after the JDC, which had been able to help provide for many of the Jews, was kicked out by the Nazis)

See:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

As I said in the previous post, it's true that not all were starving from the beginning. Even by say 1942, if you were connected to someone on a Jewish Council, or had access to black market rations, or were involved in essential labor, you had much more access to food. But starvation was widespread, as the statistical data show. Moreover, it is clear from the remarks of Hans Frank as well as the meager allocation of rations given to the Jews (minus Jewish councils and essential workers) that the Germans intended to starve them.

By 1943/1944 (i.e. the period where the cremas were operating in Auschwitz: remember that this discussion is principally about their capacity), the overwhelming majority were emaciated. Keep in mind too that essential workers were among the few spared deportation to Auschwitz.

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Re: Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

Postby Hektor » 1 month 1 week ago (Wed May 03, 2023 3:38 pm)

HistorySpeaks wrote:There was a study of starvation in the Warsaw ghetto carried out during the war: https://www.urologichistory.museum/coll ... ease-study

The Jewish councils also kept good records on the (extraordinary) percentage of ghetto inhabitants who died, largely from starvation.

Depending on how much access to the black market one had, some Jews did indeed have access to better rations than others. Also until the end of 1941 the Germans allowed the JDC to distribute food and aid.


And now we got to take their word on this. Broadly one can of course say that there were some people starving and/or getting sick. While others obviously didn't. Guess that related to whether they could work against pay or not. The previous peddling and scams they were running were not tolerated as in the past. So that avenue was closed then. So what they gonna do? Probably starve until they find another job.

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Re: Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

Postby Free Speech » 1 month 1 week ago (Wed May 03, 2023 6:32 pm)

Coincidence I found this thread because I was looking for documentation for the alleged cremation capacity at Auschwitz.

I’ve been reading the Holocaust debate over at KiwiFarms where HistorySpeaks participates. (I’m a few pages behind reading this thread.) https://kiwifarms.net/threads/the-holoc ... 0/page-228

The “convergence of evidence” trope is used by “Skeptic” Michael Shermer. In a court of law, the best evidence is forensic, scientific, contemporaneous; not eyewitness, documents, confessions.

Funny HS mentions MARIE CLAUDE VAILLANT-COUTURIER as a witness to the gas chambers. It was her testimony I read in 1982 that caused me to become skeptical about the gas chambers and 6,000,000.

At the time of the liberation I returned to these places. I visited the gas chamber which was a hermetically sealed building made of boards, and inside it one could still smell the disagreeable odor of gas. I know that at Auschwitz the gases were the same as those which were used against the lice, and the only traces they left were small, pale green crystals which were swept out when the windows were opened. I know these details, since the men employed in delousing the blocks were in contact with the personnel who gassed the victims and they told them that one and the same gas was used in both cases.

Unabridged testimony: https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=47321


She also claims babies drowned in buckets and children thrown into furnaces alive.

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Re: Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

Postby HistorySpeaks » 1 month 6 days ago (Wed May 03, 2023 7:39 pm)

Dalton has issued his rebuttal in our debate, and I have posted it to my substack.

https://historyspeaks.substack.com/p/th ... to-history

It should be noted that his initial statement is false; I did not prohibit him from linking to his books. In fact, I encouraged him to link to any books available online that he wishes to rely on (e.g. any book from holocausthandbooks). What I prohibited him from doing is linking to sites that do not contain copies of his books, but contain only order forms to buy the books.

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Re: Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

Postby Archie » 1 month 6 days ago (Wed May 03, 2023 9:33 pm)

Free Speech wrote:Coincidence I found this thread because I was looking for documentation for the alleged cremation capacity at Auschwitz.

I’ve been reading the Holocaust debate over at KiwiFarms where HistorySpeaks participates. (I’m a few pages behind reading this thread.) https://kiwifarms.net/threads/the-holoc ... 0/page-228

The “convergence of evidence” trope is used by “Skeptic” Michael Shermer. In a court of law, the best evidence is forensic, scientific, contemporaneous; not eyewitness, documents, confessions.

Funny HS mentions MARIE CLAUDE VAILLANT-COUTURIER as a witness to the gas chambers. It was her testimony I read in 1982 that caused me to become skeptical about the gas chambers and 6,000,000.

At the time of the liberation I returned to these places. I visited the gas chamber which was a hermetically sealed building made of boards, and inside it one could still smell the disagreeable odor of gas. I know that at Auschwitz the gases were the same as those which were used against the lice, and the only traces they left were small, pale green crystals which were swept out when the windows were opened. I know these details, since the men employed in delousing the blocks were in contact with the personnel who gassed the victims and they told them that one and the same gas was used in both cases.

Unabridged testimony: https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=47321


She also claims babies drowned in buckets and children thrown into furnaces alive.


I was also surprised to see him cite such a low quality testimony. Is he hoping that nobody had actually read it?

HS also cited David Olere in his latest essay.

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Re: Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

Postby Archie » 1 month 6 days ago (Wed May 03, 2023 9:35 pm)

The so-called "bone mill" from Janowska camp is debunked here:

https://codoh.com/library/document/the-bone-mill-of-lemberg/en/

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Re: Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

Postby Archie » 1 month 6 days ago (Wed May 03, 2023 11:00 pm)

Dalton (in his rebuttal) says

While we are addressing Reinhardt, let me respond to Matt’s (R) comments on body disposal. On the wood needed for open-air burnings—all three Reinhardt camps burned all their corpses on open-air fires—Matt claims that the mountain of dry wood was supplied, apparently, by a large network of workers and wood-cutters operating across Poland. And in any case, since the bodies were buried first and then exhumed, that they lost a lot of water and thus were easy to burn.


But what about the ‘desiccated corpses’ claim? Matt forgets (or doesn’t realize) that they were only buried for a few months, on average; some only for a few weeks—when exhumation and burning commenced. They were not neat, dried, jerky-like corpses; they were rotting, moldy messes.


Just to add a little bit here, both the Kola study and the early excavations (in which they dug up a modest number of bodies) report the formation of adipocere. What is adipocere?

Oxford Reference: A greyish wax-like substance that forms as a result of post-mortem hydrolysis of body fat. The word comes from a combination of the Latin words for fat (or adipose tissue) and wax, and the consistency of adipocere is very much like soap. Adipocere formation is most common in bodies found in damp environments such as mud, wet soil, swamps, or in water.


The adipocere formed in bodies buried at these camps in Poland precisely because they were damp environments. Burying the bodies in damp ground for several months is hardly a good way of drying them out.

I'm pretty sure Matt got this argument from Holocaust Controversies. Muehlenkamp et al do not approach these matters as open questions and never present us with an objective analysis. Rather what they do is try to imagine scenarios where the holocaust could conceivably still be true and then they just make whatever assumptions are convenient.

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Re: Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

Postby fireofice » 1 month 6 days ago (Thu May 04, 2023 12:35 am)

I'm surprised Dalton didn't recognize the 17 April Hitler quote, since that is addressed in MGK's The Extermination Camps of Aktion Reinhardt on pages 488-494, a book which he references in his book Debating the Holocaust. There are also some things he didn't address specifically like the Hans Frank statement on starvation (addressed in the MGK book starting on page 475), although you could perhaps say he indirectly addressed in in his response to the Posen speech. So his response wasn't perfect, but I would say it was overall pretty decent and brought up good points.


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