NEW Considerations on Treblinka and the AR Camps

[PrudentRegret]

Thank you for raising this issue Butterfangers. I agree it is a very important topic. A lot of our best Revisionists do not want to be overly negationist, so they will often accept some aspects of the mainstream narrative if there are plausible alternative interpretations to the extermination narrative. So they may, for example, agree that every Jew counted in the Hoefle telegram must have stepped foot in TII. But that could be a big mistake.

The Hoefle Telegram for example just has the letter "T". Assuming it proves the number of arrivals at the exact camp we all know as TII would be a disastrous mistake if that turned out to be an error in interpretation (and I believe it is). If 800,000 Jews never arrived at TII, then it is impossible to prove what they did when they got to TII and where they went after. This is something that must be questioned and not taken for granted.

As you mentioned, and as the ROOH post mentions, TII was not documented as the final destination of the transports. There is in fact no documentation indicating that TII was the final destination and the circumstantial evidence, like the transit time from Malkinia, all but proves that the precise location we all know as TII was not the final destination indicated in those documents.

A couple more ideas were brought up on the subject of how this new information might fit into an understanding of TII. First, that TII may have primarily been a Judenlager to keep Jews separate from TI prisoners. As for any "extermination" to have occurred there, there would, of course, be those who were too elderly and/or ill to be able to work at any of the labor camps along the train route (or to be sent further east). It is suggested that these are the Jews (or others) who would most likely have been sent to TII, for euthanasia as part of Aktion 14f13... this could also explain why former T-4 staff were sent here as well.

To me, this is the easiest part of the riddle. To understand, first you have to be aware that Aktion Reinhardt was not named after Reinhard Heydrich, it was named after the State Secretary of the Ministry of Finance Fritz Reinhardt. It was an economic operation for the utilization of property confiscated from Jewish deportees and from the Jewish ghettos during their liquidation. SSPF Lublin under Globocnik was tasked with the responsibility for collecting property, sorting property, destroying useless property, and disinfesting all property acquired throughout the evacuation of the Jews in the General Government.

During the Pohl trial, many WVHA officials testified to this fact- that Aktion Reinhardt was an economic operation for the utilization of confiscated Jewish property which fell under the jurisdiction of SSPF Lublin in the General Government. It was the task of Einsatz Reinhardt to ultimately ship the property back to Germany, WVHA headquarters, where the valuables were stored in the Reichsbank.

How does this relate to TII? Consider this portion of Hoess's statement on Globocnick's operation:

"There were no difficulties for him. He dismissed objections with a wave of his hand. He wanted to destroy the Jews in these areas immediately on the spot, as far as he did not need them for the work on 'his' police bases. He wanted to round up their property in large collection camps and evaluate them for the SS."

There is in fact an enormous amount of evidence that TII served this function. There is documentary evidence, there is substantial archaeological evidence of property buried in the ground at TII. Caroline Sturdy Colls did not find any bodies at TII but she did find a lot of buried property.

It is clear to me that TII was one of these "large collection camps" dedicated to Globocnik's economic task in the General Government. Under this interpretation, the transports could drop off passengers along the way, but keep their luggage until the last stop. All the luggage would then be collected and transported on a smaller train to TII. This camp also would have received property left behind in the liquidated ghettos throughout the Warsaw district.

This would also make TII a counterpart to a very similar secret Jewish collection camp in the Warthageu called the Pabianince Sorting Camp: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... erman.html This was another top-secret Jewish camp where property from deportees and the liquidated ghettos was collected and sorted.

I have a post here in AHF where I compare the images from the Pabianince Sorting Camp to the testimony of workers from Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka II: https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic ... 3#p2334083

To me, that analysis proves that the core functionality of TII was to, in the Warsaw District of the General Government, serve the exact same function as the Jewish Pabianince Sorting Camp in the Warthageu.

Thus, we do not need to assume that 700,000 Jews or more ever step foot in TII. That is almost certainly not true, and this camp had a clear purpose which is accounted for.

[Butterfangers]

Great insight PR, much appreciated. I saw that "nazgul" in his OP at RODOH on this subject mentioned that TII had a camp capacity for a couple thousand or so prisoners on-site (if I recall correctly). Was their main function, then, work in sorting various luggage, etc.?

Also, on the following:

A lot of our best Revisionists do not want to be overly negationist, so they will often accept some aspects of the mainstream narrative if there are plausible alternative interpretations to the extermination narrative. So they may, for example, agree that every Jew counted in the Hoefle telegram must have stepped foot in TII. But that could be a big mistake.

Is anyone here in-touch with some of our top-tier Revisionists and can share this information with them? I know there are a few important projects being worked on currently (e.g. The Holocaust Encyclopedia) which could perhaps benefit from having some of these elements incorporated into the appropriate sections. I'd very much like to hear their thoughts and interpretation on all of it.

[PrudentRegret]

Great insight PR, much appreciated. I saw that "nazgul" in his OP at RODOH on this subject mentioned that TII had a camp capacity for a couple thousand or so prisoners on-site (if I recall correctly). Was their main function, then, work in sorting various luggage, etc.?

Yes. Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka II all had substantial testimony from clothing and other property-sorters there. According to Arad, the clothing sorters were the largest labor unit of the camp (even larger than the cremation labor force, lol). I would suggest reading through the AHF thread I posted as it correlates the testimonies at these camps to the activity in the Pabianince Sorting Camp, which was also a secret Jewish camp that carried out the same function.

One more rhetorical question:

What is the reasoning given for why the Soviets initially estimated 2 million were killed at Majdanek? It was supposedly all the clothes they found at the camp. So there's already substantial precedent for warehouses of confiscated property being mistaken as a killing site or "secret extermination camp." It happened at Majdanek and it happened at Treblinka II.

The (very real) massive piles of clothing and property at TII could make it look like an extermination camp in the imaginations of investigators and eyewitnesses - the same thing happened at Majdanek.

[Butterfangers]

Great insight PR, much appreciated. I saw that "nazgul" in his OP at RODOH on this subject mentioned that TII had a camp capacity for a couple thousand or so prisoners on-site (if I recall correctly). Was their main function, then, work in sorting various luggage, etc.?

Yes. Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka II all had substantial testimony from clothing and other property-sorters there. According to Arad, the clothing sorters were the largest labor unit of the camp (even larger than the cremation labor force, lol). I would suggest reading through the AHF thread I posted as it correlates the testimonies at these camps to the activity in the Pabianince Sorting Camp, which was also a secret Jewish camp that carried out the same function.

One more rhetorical question:

What is the reasoning given for why the Soviets initially estimated 2 million were killed at Majdanek? It was supposedly all the clothes they found at the camp. So there's already substantial precedent for warehouses of confiscated property being mistaken as a killing site or "secret extermination camp." It happened at Majdanek and it happened at Treblinka II.

The (very real) massive piles of clothing and property at TII could make it look like an extermination camp in the imaginations of investigators and eyewitnesses - the same thing happened at Majdanek.

Thanks PR. I had a chance to read your AHF post linked in your initial reply. The more I think about your description of this, the more it makes sense. The "wild imagination" of witnesses is well-known. Even with the question of substantial smoke and burning often present in testimony, or even with regard to any claims of 'disturbed' ground by Believers at places like Treblinka, these being camps for sorting property can explain most of this. Some of the useless property was surely disposed of. One of the witnesses quoted in your AHF thread mentions "hundreds of meters" of large bundles filled with "useless rags". Were these burned on-site, perhaps? What of other junk? How much of it might have been buried?

It makes a lot of sense.

[PrudentRegret]

Were these burned on-site, perhaps? What of other junk? How much of it might have been buried?

It makes a lot of sense.

Yes they were. This also explains the purpose of the "Field Oven Aktion Reinhardt" at Auschwitz which exterminationists say was used to cremate gassed Jews, but Mattogno concluded it was used to destroy useless articles, as I have concluded. I've written a blurb further outlining this elsewhere which I will reproduce blow. It includes an account from Robert Faurisson of a farmer who worked near the perimeter of Treblinka and stated he saw large piles of clothing being burned:

According to official historiography, Belzec began extermination operations in March, 1942. That is the same month that a different camp in the Warthegau appears in documents - a Jewish Working Camp called Pabianice (Juden - Arbeitslager Pabianice). The purpose of the Pabianice camp was to collect, sort, and store used clothing and valuables collected "from the resettlement camp Warthbrücken and the cleared Ghettos".

This camp was designated a "secret state affair" and financed by the Litzmannstadt Ghetto Administration, which was responsible for the administration of this type of property throughout the course of resettlement. The Pabianice camp received transports of property from SS-Sonderkommando. The entire camp was dedicated to tasks such as:

• Sorting textiles and clothing by quality.
• Removing the Jewish Star from clothing.
• Searching the clothing for hidden valuables.
• Valuables were collected in suitcases and transported to the Ghetto Administration by the SS-Sonderkommando.
• Clothing was transported out of the camp to be fumigated and utilized.

These same tasks are also described as being carried out by the largest labor teams at Treblinka, Belzec, and Sobibor. For example, this is an image from the Pabianice Sorting Camp: https://collections.ushmm.org/iiif-b/assets/779116

This image perfectly illustrates a description of property sorting at Treblinka, by Oscar Strawczynski:

A special spot is designated for suitcases with valuables. They are filled with precious gold, jewellery, chains and watches, bracelets, diamond rings and plain gold rings—most of all wedding rings. There are treasures in foreign currency—gold and paper dollars, pounds sterling and old Russian gold coins. Polish money is hardly worth mentioning; it is stacked up in mountains. From time to time the “Gold Jews” who sort these treasures appear. They remove the filled suitcases and replace them with empty ones. These too are quickly filled.

The HolocaustControversies bloggers wrote a post on this camp which can be found here: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... erman.html

The Bloggers and orthodox sources acknowledge the property sorting function of these camps because they interpret it as circumstantial evidence for the mass murder of deportees at these locations. But this activity should instead be interpreted as direct evidence for a core economic task that was a purpose of these camps: processing confiscated property from the resettlement camps in addition to salvage from the liquidation of the towns and Ghettos- property which was processed and transported to Lublin.

SSPF Lublin was responsible for the administration of clothing, precious metals, currency, and jewelry all throughout the General Government collected during the course of resettlement. Christian Wirth was the commandant of Alter Flugplatz, which received transports of this property from those camps. This property was administered by Department IVa under SSPF Lublin - Einsatz Reinhardt.




The Katzmann report, for examples, states that "many textiles" along with "35 freight cars" of fur were handed over to the 'Reinhard' Staff. These articles were most likely handed over, sorted, and stored at Belzec. The sorted clothing was then transported to Alter Flugplatz on demand, and suitcases of valuables were transported to Wippern.

Archaeological investigations of all these camps have shown far more material evidence for a property sorting and salvage operation than mass graves. Dr. Robert Faurisson interviewed this witness in Treblinka in 1988 who recalled:

Had Marian Olszuk ever noticed signs of homicidal activities by the Germans in this 'extermination camp?' His answer was No. Once he had seen a big fire blazing within, but it was a mound of old clothing, about four meter high, in flames. He never saw any burning corpses.

Accounting for the property collecting, sorting, and storage role of these camps would go a long way in establishing the economic, not genocidal, objectives of Einsatz Reinhardt in the General Government. It would also provide insight into other questions like the objectives of the Gerstein visit, the uses of the delousing installations at these camps, the role of the SS-Sonderkommando and Christian Wirth in this operation, etc. All of this evidence falls neatly into the understanding that these camps had to fulfill the same role of the Pabianice Sorting Camp in the Warthegau, and at a larger scale.

In addition to all this, Globocnik wrote a report to Himmler called Report On the Administrative Development of the Action Reinhardt:

4. Textiles, garments, underclothing, bed feathers and rags were collected and sorted according to their quality. The sorted articles had to be searched for hidden valuables and finally disinfected. More than 1,900 wagons were then placed at the disposal of the authorities named by the Reich Ministry of Economy by order of the SS Economic and Administrative Head Office. Out of these stocks not only foreign workers were clothed but a large portion was used for re-manufacture. No case of sickness became known, although these garments frequently came from persons suffering from spotted typhus. The disinfection therefore was adequate.

The best garments were separated and by order of the Reichsfuehrer SS were used for supplying persons of the German race. Shoes were also sorted according to how far they could be used and then either given to persons of German race or to concentration camps for supplying inmates, or else taken to pieces and used for wooden shoes for supplying inmates.

5. Individual valuables of a special kind, such as stamps, coins, and such like were sorted and delivered to the SS Economic and Administrative Head Office; worthless articles were destroyed.

6. Other articles received, such as soap, washing materials, crockery and cutlery, and the like, were used in the Jewish camps; glass, old iron articles, etc., were sent to the salvage centers for re-manufacture.

https://codoh.com/library/document/akti ... -reply/en/

Noteworthy is that Globocnik's "Report On the Administrative Development of the Action Reinhardt" only justifies the interpretation of Aktion Reinhardt as an economic use action, not as a secret extermination plan. This interpretation also explains some other well-known phenomena at these camps:

• The widely-reported black market economy surrounding the Treblinka camp would be explained by this camp serving as a collection point for confiscated valuables, where valuables would be embezzled by the prisoners/guards/SS and used to pay for amenities from the local village population.
• The widely-reported "Treblinka gold rush" would be explained by peasants trying to find gold among the buried useless/destroyed objects, as well as valuables hidden by the workers themselves to later retrieve. It was reported that valuables were found buried at Sobibor and the like by workers responsible for sorting clothing and valuables.
• The images taken on the grounds of TII shortly after the Soviet conquest of this region, which shows evidence for the remains of a property collection camp and not an extermination camp, i.e.:
  
  
• The archaeological evidence of the camp which, as we all know, does not suggest an extermination camp but does suggest a property collection/sorting camp. This is a paper from Caroline Sturdy Colls where she pulls the Majdanek move of assuming that every bit of property found in the camp was carried by a deportee brought to the camp and murdered there:
  
  
  
  https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... ation_Camp

Most importantly, like the Pabianince camp, the presence of this property and these valuables at this camp does not indicate that the previous owners ever step foot in the camp. To assume that all the property collected at TII was collected from prisoners who arrived there on transports would be to make the exact same mistake as was made at Majdanek.

I developed this impression of "Aktion Reinhardt as an economic policy" after browsing through the transcript of the WVHA/Pohl trial. Among other testimonial evidence, I found these statements which stood out, and do not appear to have ever been mentioned by any historians or Revisionists:

JUDGE MUSMANNO: Does the Reinhardt Action refer specifically to the taking over of all property, personal property, from the Jews? Is that how you would define the Reinhardt Action?

MR. HIGGINS: Well, Your Honor, I believe it comprehends something a little more then just that. So far as I understand it, it not only comprehends the taking over of the personal property or personal effects of the exterminated Jewish masses and those people in the Government General, but it also was the exploitation of the labor of those individuals in factories and plants established by Globocnik and later taken over by the WVHA.

In other words, it is the utilization of the property of these people, as well as the labor, so long as they live.

JUDGE MUSMANNO: As distinguished from the actual execution of the Jews?

MR. HIGGINS: That is right, yes.

And another from a different witness:

Q. [sic] Therefore, I assume from your answer that from the type of watches which were being repaired here one could not draw the conclusion that these watches had been taken away from inmates who had been killed?

A. No, that assumption could not be drawn. I myself tried on one occasion to see an order according to which these watches had been confiscated. As far as I can recall, I talked to Melmer about that on one or two occasions. As far as I remember, it was Melmer told me at that time that these watches had been confiscated by virtue of a decree which the State Secretary Reinhardt in the Reich Ministry of Finance had issued, and that was the reason why this action had been given the name of Action Reinhardt.

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic ... 5#p2264904

Conclusively, the role of TII in Aktion Reinhardt, as a property collection camp in the Warsaw district of General Government, is well-established and, like the Pabianince sorting camp, offers no indication for how many deportees actually step foot in this camp.

Under this interpretation, Globocnik's task was not to exterminate the Jews throughout General Government, but to keep a central collection, sorting, disinfestation, destruction, and transportation of all Jewish property confiscated throughout the course of resettlement and ghetto liquidations.

[Iris]

Butterfangers:

The hypothesis being put forth is that the question of "where did Jews [sent to Treblinka II] go" is perhaps irrelevant (or less relevant) as it can be argued that a majority of them never arrived at TII in the first place... Many or most, it would seem, departed at various labor camps along the way... There were stops all along that route... The topic I have raised here is the question of, what proportion of Jews---of those sent out of the ghettoes onto a train with the final destination listed as "Treblinka"---actually ever made it to Treblinka II at all... I cannot prove where anyone did or did not disembark from the trains, I can only say that evidence strongly suggests many (if not most) of them disembarked before ever getting as far as Treblinka.

Iris:

So Butterfangers, how many Jews can you prove were put on trains heading east but never made it further east than... Treblinka?

Butterfangers:

I would not try to prove that.

Then how can you say that "a majority of them never arrived at TII"?

How do you know that they didn't just continue east past TII?

Can you prove that Jews who disembarked from a train heading east on the Treblinka line never got back on another train and continued east, whether or not they stopped at TII or not?

Were Jews ever sent to sites east of TII?

[Butterfangers]

Then how can you say that "a majority of them never arrived at TII"?

My exact words were that "it can be argued a majority of them never arrived at TII", which it certainly can, given that labor camps were all along the line toward Treblinka. As PR mentions above, there exists not a single documentary record which even writes out "Treblinka II" or "TII" specifically, which further draws into question how many ever made it there (as opposed to getting off beforehand or being sent further east).

How do you know that they didn't just continue east past TII?

I don't know that. I think some, or many, or perhaps even most of them could have continued past Treblinka. Before I can answer how many continued east past TII, we first have to answer the question of how many made it to Treblinka/Malkinia/TII/etc. at all. We used to think we had a somewhat firm answer to that question based on the Hoefle telegram, Korherr report, train records indicating "Treblinka", "Malkinia", "T", etc. We no longer can make that claim (no one can). The claim that "X number reached TII", based on available documentation, is no longer valid. To answer that question (of how many made it there), one must demonstrate how many were left on the trains after making lengthy stops at dozens of labor camps (some connected to even larger networks of the same), some which are known to have had 8,000+ inmates at a given time. Thus far, no one has attempted to demonstrate this. It's new information so, hopefully, we will see some more in-depth investigation into this matter (preferably by Revisionists). But even if zero Jews disembarked at any of the labor camps, those who remained could still have transited past TII/Treblinka, as you suggest. Of course, the evidence strongly suggests far more than zero disembarked at each stop, given the amount of time spent before departure at each stop, as documented on the Fahrplanordnungs which show arrival/departure time.

Can you prove that Jews who disembarked from a train heading east on the Treblinka line never got back on another train and continued east, whether or not they stopped at TII or not?

No, none of this can be proven... But all of this, of course, is a problem primarily for those who say that mass murders took place. The entire Believer argument was contingent upon, "we know X number arrived at TII, so where did they go?". We've seen it written over and over again. They can no longer use this argument/question. It was always the Revisionist case to say they did not end up buried at Treblinka. There is even more evidence for this, now, since the documentary "proof" of X number of Jews arriving there is essentially null and void.

Were Jews ever sent to sites east of TII?

I think so. There were definitely labor camps further east which have not been mapped out (yet). It would make sense that some of the labor force was sent there. How many, etc. remains an open question.

[Butterfangers]

I am going to quote this segment from "nazgul" in full (from the RODOH thread already linked above) as it shows some evidence of movement between these camps along the Treblinka train route:

It is noted that the Fahrplanordnung documents show the trains stopping at identical locations. Some documents are mentioned with no physical copies found; they are rare indeed. Linking to Fahrplananordnung Nr 587 one can see that Skarzysko was the next train stop from Kielce. People were transferred from Kielce to Skarzysko as evidenced below.

The camp (Kielce) was a site of constant crimes. In spring 1944 the Gestapo came to the camp so as to organize a transport of the Jews to labor in Skarżysko-Kamienna. link

In the same document there is a report of many Jews escaping from the camps. This is probably true of most Labour camps

Many Jews who in summer 1944 escaped from factory camps found shelter in villages surrounding Kielce.

Arthur K., who was born in Kielce, Poland in 1920 to a family of ten children. He describes growing up in a Jewish neighborhood; separation from his family for transfer to Skarżysko-Kamienna in May 1942. link

She (Shaindel Goldlist) survived the concentration camps of Skarżysko-Kamienna, Tschenstochau and Bergen-Belsen and was liberated at the latter camp by British armed forces in 1945...link

Skarżysko-Kamienna and Tschenstochau are both on the Fahrplananordnung Nr 567 and 587. It is clear that there was extensive movement between the camps.

Between August 1942 and summer of 1943 Jews from the Radom district were brought to three camps near the munitions factory to work the factory. According to German records, of the total 17,210 brought in with 58 transports

My knowledge on this topic thus far has pretty much been exhausted in this thread. I will try to respond to whatever else comes up but I think the best resources at present are in the links already provided. PR seems very knowledgeable on Treblinka in general from what I can tell so he may have more to add.

[Fred zz]

All the logistics involved in burning 750K bodies outside, weather conditions, and the heat lost that would occur in burning bodies amazes me

[Iris]

Butterfangers:

My exact words were that "it can be argued a majority of them never arrived at TII"

Well of course, anything can be ":argued." It can, and is, "argued" that 925,000 jews were transited to the TII camp and disposed of in a most absurd and physically impossible manner. Delusional people, like the true-believers of the holohoax, can and do "argue" about everything. But their problem is, they can never win an actual debate. Claiming that something can be "argued" is meaningless.

This is a debate forum, not a argument forum.

Butterfangers:

The entire Believer argument was contingent upon, "we know X number arrived at TII, so where did they go?".

First off, they do not know X number of jews arived at TII. And when it comes to an actual debate, when they are reminded that they already claim to know exactly where the jews ended up (in gigantic mass graves) their "then were did they go" argument" is totally demolished, because the burden of proof falls on them to prove their asinine allegations of mass murder and mass burial. The disingenuous "then where did they go" tactic is simply their lame attempt to avoid the burden of proof. Those who fall for this trick are needlessly playing the Jews game. If one refuses to play the game, the debate is won.

And let me remind you of what you said earlier:

Iris:

So Butterfangers, how many Jews can you prove were put on trains heading east but never made it further east than... Treblinka?

Butterfangers:

I would not try to prove that.

Butterfangers, can you prove that at least one jew who was put on a train on the Treblinka line heading east but never made it further east than Treblinka?

[Butterfangers]

Butterfangers:

My exact words were that "it can be argued a majority of them never arrived at TII"

Well of course, anything can be ":argued." It can, and is, "argued" that 925,000 jews were transited to the TII camp and disposed of in a most absurd and physically impossible manner. Delusional people, like the true-believers of the holohoax, can and do "argue" about everything. But their problem is, they can never win an actual debate. Claiming that something can be "argued" is meaningless.

This is a debate forum, not a argument forum.

Right but I would presume anyone is acting in good faith unless they give me reason to think otherwise. Obviously, what I meant is that it can be "reasonably argued..." as there would be no point in making an unreasonable argument. It can be argued that potatoes are apples. That isn't the kind of argument I am talking about. What I am saying is that it can be argued, based on sound evidence, that tons of people disembarked from the train before ever getting near TII. This is based on several key points which I have already addressed here repeatedly and which you have not yet challenged, including (but not limited to):

1. The fact that the trains filled with laborers stopped at numerous labor camps en route toward Treblinka.
2. The fact that the stops were lengthy (often up to an hour and a half or more).
3. That no other [rational] explanation exists for why these stops were made, if not to unload or exchange passengers.

Further addressed were the facts that:

4. No documentation explicitly names "TII" or "Treblinka II" as the destination, hence the assumption all passengers arrived there, specifically, was already unstable to begin with.
5. The camp had another, well-documented and [relatively] innocuous purpose which was sorting property, as PR explained in-detail, above, further suggesting the limited use of TII, specifically.

"nazgul" in the threads already linked suggests transits further east were done via a transit camp/station located near the Malkinia loop, or possibly at the Malkinia camp identified by Rudolf (although the positioning of this site relative to the railway is less-than-ideal).

Butterfangers:

The entire Believer argument was contingent upon, "we know X number arrived at TII, so where did they go?".

First off, they do not know X number of jews arived at TII.

Correct. No one does until we know how many disembarked before the train arrived there. Previously, the number who disembarked was assumed to be zero or near-zero. We now have evidence this assumption is unjustified.

And when it comes to an actual debate, when they are reminded that they already claim to know exactly where the jews ended up (in gigantic mass graves) their "then were did they go" argument" is totally demolished, because the burden of proof falls on them to prove their asinine allegations of mass murder and mass burial. The disingenuous "then where did they go" tactic is simply their lame attempt to avoid the burden of proof. Those who fall for this trick are needlessly playing the Jews game. If one refuses to play the game, the debate is won.

The tone you are writing in suggests that you think we disagree on any of this. I do not disagree---I agree with you. They do claim to know where the Jews sent out of the ghettoes ended up because they believe that they all went to TII and that there is no evidence of where they went thereafter. Even without the new information being discussed in this thread, Believers are already failing their burden of proof that Jews who went to TII were killed, buried, etc. But now, the claim that these Jews even went to TII in the numbers alleged is shown to be thoroughly invalidated. Again, it simply strengthens the Revisionist case even more. It perhaps wasn't necessary to strengthen the case further---certainly not to those of us who already knew the absurdity of arguments presented by Believers/Jews/etc.---but it does, nonetheless.

And let me remind you of what you said earlier:

Iris:

So Butterfangers, how many Jews can you prove were put on trains heading east but never made it further east than... Treblinka?

Butterfangers:

I would not try to prove that.

Butterfangers, can you prove that at least one jew who was put on a train on the Treblinka line heading east but never made it further east than Treblinka?

Yes, multiple examples were already given in my last reply: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14794&start=15#p106942

All of those transferred from Kielce to Skarzysko or to Tschenstochau had "Treblinka" indicated as the final destination on the documents referenced.

[Nazgul]

Butterfangers:
All of those transferred from Kielce to Skarzysko or to Tschenstochau had "Treblinka" indicated as the final destination on the documents referenced.

Die Fahrplananordnung documents submitted as evidence of mass transportations to the final destination, did have Treblinka as the end point. The transports came from two directions and returned via the same route, not the circular route as might be expected. This was quite possible.

Treblinka was an arbeitslager or labour camp, mainly for errant Poles who fell foul of the regime. Most arbeitslager also had a judenlager in the vicinity, as Jews had to be separated by law. It appears that this was the purpose of the current location currently known as TII. The discourse between Marian Olszuk and Faurrison suggests TII was a Zwangarbeitslager für juden (labour camp for Jews). Olszuk saw nothing untoward at this camp, purportedly used for mass extermination.

Considering that die Fahrplananordnung, (several documents) has been presented as evidence of mass transportation to a final destination at Treblinka is flawed. The transports stopped at locations of significant Jewish Labour Camps, for about an hour at a time.

While Nessie wishes for evidence of disembarkation of people at these place, to me the Fahrplananordnung gives reasonable doubt that huge numbers arrived at the final destination, which is Treblinka.

It is significant also to note that there were 230 Zwangarbeitslager für Juden in Austria specifically for Hungarian Jews. These were in action until the end of the war. Peter Lantos was on one of two transports that arrived at one of these camps in Austria, one transport went to Auschwitz. These camps could easily hold 460 thousand Jews. It is claimed 420 thousand Jews were deported from Hungary by Yad Vashem.

123 Zwangarbeitslager für Juden have been identified in the Ukraine and Ostland. There were also ghettos and konzentrationslager.
The first transport from Warsaw claimed to have gone to Treblinka was in fact a transport to Bobruysk with about two thousand young men to work in the SS camp. Some returned to the GG after a few years to be interned in other labour camps.

This is work in progress; it is pleasing that some people have taken an interest.

[Iris]

Butterfangers:

The hypothesis being put forth is that the question of "where did Jews [sent to Treblinka II] go" is perhaps irrelevant (or less relevant) as it can be argued that a majority of them never arrived at TII in the first place... Many or most, it would seem, departed at various labor camps along the way... There were stops all along that route... The topic I have raised here is the question of, what proportion of Jews---of those sent out of the ghettoes onto a train with the final destination listed as "Treblinka"---actually ever made it to Treblinka II at all... I cannot prove where anyone did or did not disembark from the trains, I can only say that evidence strongly suggests many (if not most) of them disembarked before ever getting as far as Treblinka... Since we now know there were forced labor camps at these stops... it seems all but certain that a substantial number of Jews were let off at each of these stops.

Iris:

Can you prove that Jews put on trains headed east were not transited past Treblinka without disembarking prior to or at Treblinka II?

Butterfangers:

I cannot prove where anyone did or did not disembark from the train

Iris:

Butterfangers, how many Jews can you prove were put on trains heading east but never made it further east than... Treblinka?

Butterfangers:

I would not try to prove that. At this point, we don't have any precise estimate at all of how many Jews disembarked at any of the given stops

Iris:

How do you know that they didn't just continue east past TII?

Butterfangers:

I don't know that. I think some, or many, or perhaps even most of them could have continued past Treblinka.

Iris:

Can you prove that Jews who disembarked from a train heading east on the Treblinka line never got back on another train and continued east, whether or not they stopped at TII or not?

Butterfangers:

No

Iris:

Were Jews ever sent to sites east of TII?

Butterfangers:

I think so. There were definitely labor camps further east

Iris:

Butterfangers, can you prove that at least one jew was put on a train on the Treblinka line heading east but never made it further east than Treblinka?

Butterfangers:

Yes

Facts alleged by Butterfangers:

1. Trains filled with laborers stopped at numerous labor camps en route toward Treblinka.
2. The stops were lengthy (often up to an hour and a half or more).
3. No other [rational] explanation exists for why these stops were made, if not to unload or exchange passengers.
4. No one knows how many jews arived at TII and no one knows how many disembarked before the train arrived there.
5. Tthey [true-believers] believe that they all went to TII and that there is no evidence of where they went thereafter.[/quote]

Butterfangers,

Can you prove that the trains heading east on the Treblinka line didn't pick up passengers from camps without any "exchange" taking place?

Is there any evidence that jews who were transited to Treblinka and actually set foot inside the TII camp were not killed and were transited elsewhere?

Were Jews transited beyond Treblinka to destinations in Belarus and Ukraine?

The number of jews that you can prove that were put on a train on the Treblinka line heading east but never made it further east than Treblinka, is no less than: ?

[PrudentRegret]

What has likely happened is that everyone involved - from witnesses, to investigators, to courts, to historians, to Revisionists, has been completely confused by the word "Treblinka," which by my count has no fewer than five meanings:

• The Treblinka village near Malkinia.
• The Treblinka train station on the Malkinia-Siedlce branch line.
• Treblinka I
• Treblinka II
• SS-Sonderkommando Treblinka (found in documents pertaining to activity in Treblinka I) and the meaning of this term is not restricted to TII as I've seen assumed elsewhere.
• Whatever "Treblinka extermination camp" was reported in the popular press before TII even opened

Here a sign reads "Treblinka, Treblinka," but neither "Treblinka" here refers to the "Trebinka II extermination camp" or the "Treblinka I labor camp."

So to assume that the "T" in the Hoefle telegram denotes an exact count of the number of people that set foot in the exact camp now known as TII is not at all supported by documents. It's an enormous assumption and an assumption that is almost certainly wrong, especially given the consideration of recent information presented by Nazgul and my own suggestions for the labor-purpose of this camp.

Is there any evidence that jews who were transited to Treblinka and actually set foot inside the TII camp were not killed and were transited elsewhere?

It is impossible to say how many Jews actually set foot inside the TII camp. That number is not at all supported by any known documents, and the documentary and circumstantial evidence suggests TII was not the final destination for the vast majority of the deportees. In the documents TII is not identified as the final destination, so how can you just make that assumption? If you can make no reasonable conclusion regarding the number of Jews who set foot in TII, how could you possibly answer the question of how many Jews were transited elsewhere from TII specifically?

The entire Trump Card from the exterminationists has been "almost a million Jews went to TII, you can't find any that left that camp?" But of course that question is built on an assumption that is not supported by the documentary evidence. If we are talking about no more than 10 or 20,000 Jews who set foot in TII specifically, then the question itself is simply invalid.

[PrudentRegret]

I am going to quote this segment from "nazgul" in full (from the RODOH thread already linked above) as it shows some evidence of movement between these camps along the Treblinka train route:

It is noted that the Fahrplanordnung documents show the trains stopping at identical locations. Some documents are mentioned with no physical copies found; they are rare indeed. Linking to Fahrplananordnung Nr 587 one can see that Skarzysko was the next train stop from Kielce. People were transferred from Kielce to Skarzysko as evidenced below.

The camp (Kielce) was a site of constant crimes. In spring 1944 the Gestapo came to the camp so as to organize a transport of the Jews to labor in Skarżysko-Kamienna. link

I just now clicked on the link containing the chapter on "Labor camps for Jewish population". One section reads:

The OKBZpNP in Kielce has ascertained that in the labor camp on Jasna and Stolarska Street an average number of Jews was 1360. The camp was surrounded with barbed wire and a fence. The Poles weren't allowed to go there. In the camp were Jews born in Kielce, Jews from other Polish cities as well as some Jews from Austria, Bohemia and Germany. The area was watched by the Gestapo. The Jews were employed in quarries, factories and storehouses on Zagórska Street, the Waterworks Company, garages at 1-3 Mickiewicza Street and craftsmen, mainly tailors, shoe top and shoemakers' workshops. Several dozen people were selecting not only the things taken from the Kielce ghetto but also great transports of clothes from Treblinka sent to Kielce by railway. After sorting them, a part of the things was sent to Radom on the Gestapo order, where there was a collective storehouse located in the tannery “Korona”. There they were selected once again and the most precious things were transported to [b]Lublin to storehouses created the moment the “Aktion Reinhard” started.[7] The Gestapo from Skarżysko Kamienna called many times for the post-Jewish property.

Notice the parallels between these camps and TI / TII. Separation of Jewish and non-Jewish subcamps, and these subcamps were used for labor (i.e. quarries). They were involved in property sorting as well.

The book says "great transports of clothes from Treblinka sent to Kielce by railway". Presumably, the clothes that were shipped from TII to those camps and beyond would have been deloused in order to prevent the spread of typhus. Under this model, TII would be the final destination and collection place for masses of "dirty" clothes confiscated from the deportees and liquidated ghettos and then the origin for "clean" clothes going to other destinations.

Documents establish the transports of clothing out of TII but not the transport of Jews into TII.

Likely these trains would drop deportees off at labor camps on the way to the final destination ('Treblinka') but their confiscated property would remain to be collected at that camp, brought to the camp grounds by a separate train of closed good wagons pulled by a smaller steam engine (the oft-cited, enigmatic "shunting engine" which brought the closed good wagons to to/from Malkinia & TI/TII.)