Apart from the mainstream account of the Holocaust, can any learned members provide perspective on Haavara?

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Damian77
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Apart from the mainstream account of the Holocaust, can any learned members provide perspective on Haavara?

Postby Damian77 » 2 months 1 week ago (Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:03 am)

I have read this detailed account of Haavara, titled "Facts About the Haavara (Transfer) Agreement Between Ben-Gurion & Hitler (1933 - late 39)," and wanted some learned member here to provide perspective on the article linked below:

https://www.palestineremembered.com/Fac ... ublueePlan

The article heavily uses Edwin Black as a source, who is, for the most part, sensational concerning the holocaust but I find he provides a truthful account on Haavara.


Here is the conclusion from teh article:

Before reading our analysis, again we like to reiterate that it is a common mistake to think that Zionists & Zionism used to represent the majority of European Jews before WWII; that is completely false. BUND dominated Jewish politics in Europe which were mostly against the nation-state concept, liberal socialist, anti-Zionist, and pro-assimilation (Albert Einstein was a great example). Zionists were a minority who had little resources & little support despite British help (Great Britain at the time hoped they'll become a counterweight to Jews who supported Bolsheviks, especially in the 1920s, see Churchill's article for more details). However, the turning point happened after the BUND was completely destroyed during WWII; then & only then the political stage became dominated by Zionists ever since. Sadly to this date, most Jews identify with Zionism. It can't be emphasized more how the animosity between both groups (BUND vs Zionists) was very intense & it shouldn't be underestimated; Abraham Burg (p. 101-104) did a great job describing their feelings, and Haavara can't be fully understood unless you comprehend Zionists' hatred towards them.


Finally, we like the reader to contemplate a few of things before they leave:

[*]After reading all these facts, the simpletons shall ask: Are you saying that Jews caused the Holocaust! Of course, antisemitism will be weaponized soon after! The facts (which we've shown earlier) that Zionist enterprises were in real pain in the early 1930s (caused by the Great Depression, Palestinian resistance & shortage of manpower) which put the Jewish Agency under severe financial stress; and if nothing changed, it would've been being a matter of time until Jewish Agency will be liquidated (The Transfer Agreement, p. 90). Therefore, all Zionists' hands were on deck, and the Zionist movement was in panic mode. This explains why they were willing to work hand over fist with Hitler even if Zionists ended up enabling the devil.

[*]Frankly, normalizing trade, relations, or even alliances with Hitler could be understood after the Nazi occupation of Poland & France by mid-1940 (as Mufti, Vichy Government & Stern Gang did). However, Zionist leadership was FIRST to be in bed with Hitler even when appeasement policies ended up ratcheting repression against German Jews, and Haavara continued unabated even after Nuremberg Race Laws & Kristallnacht pogrom. Therefore, Zionist leadership was the first to know that appeasing Hitler not only would've enabled him, but most importantly appeasements made him confident, emboldened & way more intransigent; and instead of re-evaluating Zionists' policies, actually they doubled down on Haavara! What is mind-boggling is that Zionists continue to defend Haavara 8 or 9 decades after the fact!

[*]No question about it Zionists were not the only ones to appease and enable Hitler; a long series of appeasement events continued non-stop between 1933 and mid-1940. And most importantly, any of these events would have hindered or curtailed Hitler’s powers. On the other hand; Zionists were the FIRST to give a helping hand to Hitler when Nazis were at their weakest points in early 1933 and above all, they worked nonstop with him for 7+ years. Not for Zionists and other appeasers; that could have triggered the Nazi led government coalition to collapse (which was common at the time). When Zionists broke the effective boycott against Nazis; why others should abstain from dealing with Hitler when Jews did it first!

[*]At a minimum, the Zionist movement was guilty of intentional reckless endangerment; literally, Zionists didn't care what would happen to European Jews if and when they saved themselves by immigrating to places other than Palestine. And when fomenting antisemitism could or might serve them; they often jumped on it with little hesitation & cheered. That is why Europe's Jews looked at them as the enemy from within; especially before their destruction during WWII. What is sad is that this reckless pattern continued at the height of the calamity and all were fixated on Palestine to force England to open Palestine for unrestricted Jewish immigration.

[*]To rub salt into the wound, not only did Zionists position themselves to exploit Shoah before it happened (with Haavara) and afterward (with reparations), but also they stole the heroic sacrifices of others and painted themselves as protectors of Jewish honor when it was them who employed Jewish suffering to achieve their political goals. That is why we called them: The Impostering Heroes!

[*]Just imagine how Zionist Jews would have done if Palestinians profited the same way they did from killing (or as "saving" as Zionists say) millions of Jews. Already they made Palestinians (not the West who ganged upon them) collectively liable for the Holocaust as Nazis because of Mufti's actions!

[*]If Zionists acted this way towards the German & Polish Jews in the 1930s, why would anyone be surprised at how they've treated Palestinians since Nakba!

[*]How did enabling the Nazi economy didn't aid in exterminating European Jews?

[*]How does enabling Nazis (& using German Jews as a mean to an end) doesn't explain how Zionist Jews quickly gave European anti-Semites a free pass soon after Nakba? As Abraham Burg (p. 72-74) described Zionist's profiteering well from antisemitism before & after Shoah! To deflect, Zionists paint current Europeans as "reformed" from antisemitism, and in this regard, we like to quote how Martin Gilbert (big Zionist historian) describes the environment in Europe 3 years after WWII ended:

[*]Speaking of the fate of European Jewry to the UN Special Committee On Palestine (UNSCO) in 1947, Ben-Gurion noted that in recent Gallup Poll taken in the American Zone of Germany, 14% of the Germans questioned had condemned Hitler's massacre of the Jews, 26% had been "neutral", and 60% had approved the killings. Ben-Gurion exploited German anti-Semitism and said:

"The Jews do not want to stay where they are. They want to regain their human dignity, their homeland, they want reunion with their kin in Palestine after having lost their dearest relations. To them the countries of their birth are a graveyard of their people. They do not wish to return there and they cannot." (Israel: A History, p. 146-7)


Do you understand why European nations eagerly voted for UN Partition in 1947? No wonder, some Zionists reached out to Hitler for the alliance as late as 1941? Imagine, how news of the Holocaust didn't deter them! How do you think Zionist leaders reacted to Evian Conference in 1938 to try to relocate European Jews to safer areas? That is another Pandora's box which we shall address shortly. Contrary to the conventional wisdom, it seems that it was Haavara & Nazis' financing that laid down the foundation for the Jewish state; not the British or donations from Jews around the world. It seems that the British provided the legal framework plus protection, but the financing & the know-how that built the foundation of the states was imported from Nazi Germany.

Ariel Lekaditis, Abraham Burg (p. 101-104) & Joseph Massad described the hostility of Zionists towards German Jews who weren't Zionists. Is it possible that Zionists weaponized & exploited their hatred towards BUND (who were Zionists' European political rivals & who were destroyed by Nazis) during the implementation of Haavara? This comes out as a "viable & possible" conclusion once you contemplate what Ariel wrote:

The politics of the Zionist movement and their ideology towards the rest of the German Jews was very explicit. There was no doubt that they separated themselves by the German Jews who were placed in a separate category: they didn’t speak Hebrew; they didn’t belong to the Zionist movement; were too old to have children, or didn’t have the financial resources to support the settlement of Palestine, a purpose which was of course offered the criteria for this separation. Therefore the Zionist movement not only didn't do anything for the confrontation of the Holocaust but also fought strongly any immigration policy which was orientated to the transportation of the German Jews in order to save them. Abraham Burg wrote on p. 99-100


Who among us really knows about the Jews outside Israel, who are the majority of our people? What did we Israelis know of the lives, dreams, and fears of American Jews? What did we learn of the North African Jews who emigrated to France, or to Latin American Jews? Not a clue, and worse--we simply don't care. "They should either come and live here," the late President Ezra Weizmann once told me angrily,"or they should go to hell." This was the thinking when he grew up in the British Mandate Palestine. Land of Israel, thus they were ignored during the Shoah, and this is still the sentiment today. If they were well, they don't interest us at all; if their condition worsens, it only justifies our choices.

Similarly, the NYTimes alluded to something similar:

''Jewish organizations and their respective leaders were emotionally as well as ideologically so absorbed with their internecine struggles, rivalries and efforts to >achieve hegemony in the Jewish community, that the perception of the urgency of rescue was, if not ignored, at least greatly diminished,''


Is it possible that political rivalry was so fierce that Zionist leaders didn't care if none Zionist Jews (pro-assimilation) live or die! As if anything that happens to Jews outside of Palestine doesn't concern them!

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borjastick
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Re: Apart from the mainstream account of the Holocaust, can any learned members provide perspective on Haavara?

Postby borjastick » 2 months 1 week ago (Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:22 am)

Sadly to this date, most Jews identify with Zionism.

I would question quite strongly what he means by this claim. To identify with something doesn't necessarily mean full approval or support. It could mean they as jews understand and appreciate what zionism is but wouldn't want it for themselves which is perhaps why so many more jews choose not to live in israel.

To understand better the thinking of jews who do not want a state of israel to have come into being, though they wouldn't want it dismantled now, have a look through the website for the organisation jewish voice for peace - https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/zionism/ to me they talk a lot of sense.

Having said all of that I think most jews realise that the holocaust and the state of israel coming into being has saved their bacon, or given them a free meal ticket for chicken soup every day...

I had a quick scan through the rest of the article you have shown and to me it is fair. I'll read it all fully later this evening.

I also think that there was a clear alliance with zionists and understanding of minds in the Hitler establishment that jews need to go and the Transfer Agreement would facilitate that. In some ways one could state that Hitler supported the zionists in their quest for a state of israel. Though when former London Mayor Ken Livingstone said that a few years ago he was almost burned at the stake live on television and certainly hung out to dry by his Labour Party.

If you haven't read it yet I would suggest The Founding Myths of Modern Israel by Roger Garoudy. It gives much information and quotes about the jews and zionist trouble makers in Germany in that key period.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Hieldner
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Re: Apart from the mainstream account of the Holocaust, can any learned members provide perspective on Haavara?

Postby Hieldner » 2 months 1 week ago (Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:00 pm)

There’s more on that in Ingrid Weckert’s Jewish Emigration from the Third Reich. Also, Carlo Mattogno’s Treblinka, chapter 6, touches upon the Haavara agreement and other Jewish emigration attempts by the Third Reich, like the Madagaskar plan, encouraging emigration to Russia, establishing a Jewish reservation in towns and ghettos of the General Government, and so on (just ignore anything regarding the Korherr report, which is fake in my opinion).

I haven’t read the full article as I can see where it is going with its simplistic Nazis = Zionists take. The author got the year of the Bermuda conference wrong which took place in 1943. But I think the basic facts outlined there make much more sense when one considers that no "Holocaust" took place, but coercive measures by the Third Reich to prevent a possible undermining of the state by Zionist or Bolshevik influences, while at the same time an overly hysterical Jewish press campaign was afflicting mainly Western media.

Consequently, it is no wonder that Joseph Goebbels would have expressed his support of a Jewish state in the midst of the supposed Holocaust:
The Vichy radio in a broadcast last night quoted Nazi Propaganda Minister Josef Goebbels as stating that “Germany is not against a Jewish State.” He is alleged to have made this statement while addressing a group of foreign journalists in Berlin. “We may solve the Jewish problem in a humanitarian manner,” Goebbels is quoted as having said. “The German government is not opposed to the establishment of a Jewish State.”

The statement is considered here as a move to “appease” the Christians in Allied, neutral and even Nazi-dominated countries who are continuing their protests against the Nazi extermination of Jews. No importance is attached to it in Allied circles.
Jewish Telegraphic Agency, March 17, 1943.

Whereas his alleged (i.e. fake) diary entry just 10 days later speaks of „liquidating“ at least 60 percent of the Jews in the General Government.
To provide soap for Germany … [Prof. Spanner] used, in the mode of the Shakespearean witches, racially and ethnically diverse corpses in his experiments … This defies the popular perception that the soap was made of “pure Jewish fat.” … We may consider this misperception a curious symptom of a purist and essentialist reading, or, at least, note that the tension between essentialism and utilitarianism reaches its peak in this misreading.

– Bożena Shallcross

Damian77
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Re: Apart from the mainstream account of the Holocaust, can any learned members provide perspective on Haavara?

Postby Damian77 » 2 months 1 week ago (Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:18 pm)

borjastick wrote:
Sadly to this date, most Jews identify with Zionism.

I would question quite strongly what he means by this claim. To identify with something doesn't necessarily mean full approval or support. It could mean they as jews understand and appreciate what zionism is but wouldn't want it for themselves which is perhaps why so many more jews choose not to live in israel.

To understand better the thinking of jews who do not want a state of israel to have come into being, though they wouldn't want it dismantled now, have a look through the website for the organisation jewish voice for peace - https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/zionism/ to me they talk a lot of sense.

Having said all of that I think most jews realise that the holocaust and the state of israel coming into being has saved their bacon, or given them a free meal ticket for chicken soup every day...

I had a quick scan through the rest of the article you have shown and to me it is fair. I'll read it all fully later this evening.

I also think that there was a clear alliance with zionists and understanding of minds in the Hitler establishment that jews need to go and the Transfer Agreement would facilitate that. In some ways one could state that Hitler supported the zionists in their quest for a state of israel. Though when former London Mayor Ken Livingstone said that a few years ago he was almost burned at the stake live on television and certainly hung out to dry by his Labour Party.

If you haven't read it yet I would suggest The Founding Myths of Modern Israel by Roger Garoudy. It gives much information and quotes about the jews and zionist trouble makers in Germany in that key period.


Thanks, I will give The Founding Myths of Modern Israel by Roger Garoudy a read.

After the Jewish Voice for Peace defamed Alison Weir, I do not take anything from them seriously.


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