Remains of Nazi victims found. Inc. gas chamber victim

[borjastick]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... itute.html

Reported in today's British Daily Telegraph is a bizarre claim that various 'remains' have been found as follows;

Remains belonging to victims of Nazi anatomy professor August Hirt have been found at a forensic medicine institute in eastern France, local authorities said in a statement on Saturday.

Eighty-six Jews had been sent to the gas chambers in 1943 and their bodies brought to the eastern French city of Strasbourg, then under Nazi occupation and where Hirt was assembling a macabre collection of corpses.

The bodies, some intact, others dismembered or burned, were found in November 1944 after the liberation of Strasbourg, in bins filled with distilled alcohol. They were then buried in a common grave in 1946 following autopsies.

I assume this is all concerning the Natzweiler concentration camp which was just west of the city of Strasbourg. If so this story is yet another regurgitation of the old claim that a bunch of jews were sent there to be gassed so that the camp commandant could cut them up immediately after death to enhance his collection of human body parts.

No one really believes this old tosh yet some of the holocaust flat earthers have been spouting this nonsense quite recently.

In the body text (no pun intended) is the line in speech marks (does that make the words more believable or add a certain sense of incredulity to them?)

"a jar containing skin fragments of a gas chamber victim".

[TheBlackRabbitofInlé]

I assume this is all concerning the Natzweiler concentration camp which was just west of the city of Strasbourg. If so this story is yet another regurgitation of the old claim that a bunch of jews were sent there to be gassed so that the camp commandant could cut them up immediately after death to enhance his collection of human body parts.

No one really believes this old tosh yet some of the holocaust flat earthers have been spouting this nonsense quite recently.

The world's most knowledgeable revisionist by a country mile: Carlo Mattogno, accepts that gassing of 86 Jews at Natzweiler really happened.

This is from Juergen Graf's introduction to Mattogno's book Inside the Gas Chambers:

For me, who translated Mattogno’s book from Italian to German, the conclusion that a gassing was “probably” perpetrated in the Alsatian camp at Natzweiler was very surprising. In August of 1943, 86 Jews were sent to the Natzweiler camp from Auschwitz and were subsequently murdered. The documents do not permit any doubt in this regard. The criminal deed was initiated by an SS professor who wanted to prepare a collection of Jewish skeletons. Without providing us with any clear documentary evidence, Mattogno believes that the murders were probably carried out by means of phosgene gas. By allowing such a hypothesis, the Italian researcher risks being rebuked by other revisionist historians. The fact that he accepts this risk proves that he does spread neither black nor white propaganda but is trying to do serious science. (p.20)

Mattogno's handling of Natzweiler can be read on pp. 206 - 224:
http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/25-itgc.pdf

[borjastick]

And we are still waiting for the proof in a pile of paperwork from Mr Cole.

I am not buying the probability of this claim and neither do I buy the fair balanced view he is trying to claim so as to assuage some of the biters. It's a throwaway of little consequence. The fact is that if gassings had happened there the holocaust believers would be all over it screaming 'see, I told you so, here is an actual gas chamber, you must never question this fact!'

[TheBlackRabbitofInlé]

Mr. Cole!?

Mr. Mattogno has convincingly contested numerous authors' claims of homicidal gassing by writing point-by-point rebuttals of their works.

If someone wants to seriously contest Mattogno's views on Natzweiler, they need to give his relatively short article the same treatment.

Just asserting that you're not 'buying it' for reasons unspecified, is not good revisionism.

[hermod]

Mattogno's handling of Natzweiler can be read on pp. 206 - 224:
http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/25-itgc.pdf

Assuming Mattogno's conclusions are correct, the Natzweiler gassings are very striking by their complete amateurishness, what is quite nonsensical and inconsistent with the alleged advanced experience of the Third Reich in the field of giant homicidal gassings at that time (mid-1943). But something perfectly understandable and logical if the Nazis were in fact novices 100% unexperienced in the art of gassing human beings to death, as Holocaust revisionists say. Really homicidal gassings in a vacuum.

[Hannover]

Note that in The telegraph piece we read:

Simonin had been tasked by the military authorities with carrying out judicial autopsies in order to "establish the conditions that had led to the death" of the victims.

Mr Toledano was given a clue as to the location of the remains in a letter written by Simonin in 1952, which "mentioned the jars containing the samples taken in the course of judicial autopsies carried out on the Jewish victims of the Struthof gas chamber".

"The labels identify each piece with precision and mention the register 107969, which matches the number tattooed at the Auschwitz camp on the forearm of Menachem Taffel, one of the 86 victims," said the statement announcing the bodies' discovery.

-Yet we see no such verified 'Jewish' body parts and we see no "judicial autopsy" report. Nothing.

- Any found body parts could have an endless number of explanations. Of course human parts are quite common, normal in research institutions, stored in jars, etc.

- A claimed mass murder, but all unverified physical remains are hidden away from prying eyes, legally required procedures are never shown to have been completed.

- Note that the mentioned 'jars containing autopsy samples' were never introduced into any criminal trial proceedings. The results of that claimed autopsy were not published, the alleged contents were never shown. Then there is no proof offered by them that the alleged Struthof gassings occurred.

-Why aren't the 'labels with registration numbers' shown? In fact, why aren't all the jars set out and made available for scrutiny?

-Instead, everything is given to a Jewish organization to hide away, of course.

Just more 'holocaust' serving propaganda.

- Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that crushes the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.

[borjastick]

Mr. Cole!?

Mr. Mattogno has convincingly contested numerous authors' claims of homicidal gassing by writing point-by-point rebuttals of their works.

If someone wants to seriously contest Mattogno's views on Natzweiler, they need to give his relatively short article the same treatment.

Just asserting that you're not 'buying it' for reasons unspecified, is not good revisionism.

Black Rabbit. What I think you are saying is that these claims of a single gassing, to satisfy the lunatic leanings of the Professor, are reasonably well established but aren't pursued by the Holocaust promoters because it would, in one fell swoop, reduce their overall mass murder assertions in Auschwitz etc, to dust.

You may well be right, and I have always contested that it is IMO doubtful that no gassings ever took place anywhere by the Germans from 1933-1945, but the fact that the details are only just emerging smacks of another managed PR stunt by the Zionist Promoters.

As for what I choose to buy or not I don't claim to be as well read as you and others here, I do not take an academic approach to my holocaust interest and studies. I don't have the time, money or brainpower. I do however have a very reliable gut feel for lies and truth. I understand the human condition and the motivation for people to say this and that. I just feel that claims made 70 years after the fact where amazingly a find is made of human remains from a supposed mass gassing, where they immediately state that something in a glass jar is tissue from a gassing victim, are highly dubious.

[Hannover]

BlackRabbit says:

The world's most knowledgeable revisionist by a country mile: Carlo Mattogno, accepts that gassing of 86 Jews at Natzweiler really happened.

This is from Juergen Graf's introduction to Mattogno's book Inside the Gas Chambers:

For me, who translated Mattogno’s book from Italian to German, the conclusion that a gassing was “probably” perpetrated in the Alsatian camp at Natzweiler was very surprising. In August of 1943, 86 Jews were sent to the Natzweiler camp from Auschwitz and were subsequently murdered. The documents do not permit any doubt in this regard. The criminal deed was initiated by an SS professor who wanted to prepare a collection of Jewish skeletons. Without providing us with any clear documentary evidence, Mattogno believes that the murders were probably carried out by means of phosgene gas. By allowing such a hypothesis, the Italian researcher risks being rebuked by other revisionist historians. The fact that he accepts this risk proves that he does spread neither black nor white propaganda but is trying to do serious science. (p.20)

Mattogno does say"

Natzweiler, most probably by means of gas, but in an existing gas chamber that had been built for experiments with phosgene gas.

In the first place murder of the alleged Jews a has not been proven.
And then Mattogno presents information in the cited link which makes his claim of 'probable' gassing with phosgene preposterous.
IOW he is contradicting the very information he publishes and appears to be trying too hard to "do serious science". What's serious about ignoring the facts that he, himself has laid out.

All one has to do is read the information Mattogno gives, and that's it.

- Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that crushes the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.

[hermod]

Had Germany and America finally teamed up against the Soviets, I wonder if Uncle Sam's trophy hunters would have brought some of their Jap skulls in Germany to show their works to Dr Hirt...



...and compare their preparation techniques.





On has to keep in mind that 86 enemy lives are worth almost nothing in times of war anyway. On all sides! C'est la vie...

[TheBlackRabbitofInlé]

In the first place murder of the alleged Jews a has not been proven.

Pressac has published [in The Struthof Album : Study of the Gassing at Natzweiler-Struthof of 86 Jews Whose Bodies Were to Constitute a Collection of Skeletons : A Photographic Document] two weekly reports concerning the camp strength, the first one covering the period of 7 through 14 August, the second one the period of 15 through 21 August. On 7 August, the column “Jews” has 90 persons, 30 of whom were registered as “deceased,” with another 57 deceased Jews for the following period, which means that between 7 and 21 August 87 Jews died. It would be extremely difficult to attribute these sudden deaths to a cause other than intentional killing,

- Mattogno, Inside the Gas Chambers, p.220

And then Mattogno presents information in the cited link which makes his claim of 'probable' gassing with phosgene preposterous.

What information is that, specifically?

IOW he is contradicting the very information he publishes and appears to be trying too hard to "do serious science". What's serious about ignoring the facts that he, himself has laid out.

Can you please document how Mattogno has done these things you claim.

[TheBlackRabbitofInlé]

Had Germany and America finally teamed up against the Soviets, I wonder if Uncle Sam's trophy hunters would have brought some of their Jap skulls in Germany to show their works to Dr Hirt...

Can you imagine how famous that photo would be if only showed German soldiers instead of Americans.

[Hannover]

Rabbit quoted;

Pressac has published [in The Struthof Album : Study of the Gassing at Natzweiler-Struthof of 86 Jews Whose Bodies Were to Constitute a Collection of Skeletons : A Photographic Document] two weekly reports concerning the camp strength, the first one covering the period of 7 through 14 August, the second one the period of 15 through 21 August. On 7 August, the column “Jews” has 90 persons, 30 of whom were registered as “deceased,” with another 57 deceased Jews for the following period, which means that between 7 and 21 August 87 Jews died. It would be extremely difficult to attribute these sudden deaths to a cause other than intentional killing,

- Mattogno, Inside the Gas Chambers, p.220

Yes, I saw that. Still nothing to prove they were murdered.
Assuming they really did come from Auschwitz, no proof for that either. Do you have that proof?
Always start at the beginning.

But playing along, who is to say they weren't unknowingly infected with well documented Auschwitz typhus? Certainly makes more sense than to say they were 'murdered' without proof.

"Criminal Traces" Pressac? I mean come on, he's a charlatan, and easily shown as such.

Rabbit:

What information is that, specifically?

Pressac's nonsense dispatched by Mattogno, the Kramer fiasco dispatched by Mattogno, the Schmaltz absurdities dispatched by Mattogno, numerous references and statements as to alleged letters debunked by Mattogno, 'construction' nonsense debunked by Mattogno.
I suggest you begin reading at page 207 of the cited Mattogno work.

Rabbit:

Can you please document how Mattogno has done these things you claim.

Me? Mattogno has done it himself.

My earlier comments:

- Yet we see no such verified 'Jewish' body parts and we see no "judicial autopsy" report. Nothing.

- Any found body parts could have an endless number of explanations. Of course human parts are quite common, normal in research institutions, stored in jars, etc.

- A claimed mass murder, but all unverified physical remains are hidden away from prying eyes, legally required procedures are never shown to have been completed.

- Note that the mentioned 'jars containing autopsy samples' were never introduced into any criminal trial proceedings. The results of that claimed autopsy were not published, the alleged contents were never shown. Then there is no proof offered by them that the alleged Struthof gassings occurred.

-Why aren't the 'labels with registration numbers' shown? In fact, why aren't all the jars set out and made available for scrutiny?

-Instead, everything is given to a Jewish organization to hide away, of course.

Mattogno in attempt to 'throw them a bone has jumped to conclusions.

The unproven 'gassings' at Natzweiler are just more of the fraudulent 'holocaust' storyline.

Thanks, Hannover

[Dresden]

Okay, children.....it's time to play "Where's Waldosaki?"

How many skulls are in this picture?

[Hannover]

And this by Mattogno in support of my position:

The Auschwitz Kalendarium mentions Professor Hirt for the last time under the date of 15 June 1943 in connection with the contents of the letter which Sievers wrote him on 21 June. No further documents exist on the subject of the transfer of the 86 or 87 Jews to Natzweiler (it is not clear why only 86 or 87 Jews out of those selected were sent to Natzweiler).
This means that one can only surmise that they came from Auschwitz. [??] This is corroborated at first sight by the fact that one of the corpses found [??] towards the end of the Second World War at the anatomical institute of Strasburg university bore the number 107969 on its lower left arm. At Auschwitz, this number had been assigned to the detainee Menachem Taffel. But if the photograph of this number is compared with an undoubtedly genuine Auschwitz tattoo, one can see that it was inscribed in ink or indelible pencil rather than as a tattoo

- Fake tattoo, OK then.

- And why can't we actually see photos and forensic reports of the alleged "corpses found towards the end of the Second World War at the Anatomical Institute of Strasburg University"?

- May I remind The Rabbit about the very problematic nature of the so called 'Auschwitz Kalendarium'.

- Do we have an actual copy of the 'letter which Sievers sent to Prof. Hirt' to review?

Cheers, Hannover

[hermod]

Had Germany and America finally teamed up against the Soviets, I wonder if Uncle Sam's trophy hunters would have brought some of their Jap skulls in Germany to show their works to Dr Hirt...

Can you imagine how famous that photo would be if only showed German soldiers instead of Americans.

Hardly.

Okay, children.....it's time to play How many skulls are in this picture?

12, sir.