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Sailor
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Sterbebücher

Postby Sailor » 2 decades 2 months ago (Tue Mar 11, 2003 9:02 pm)

From http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Kremer/Hebden080303.html

Hebden wrote:I asked them to put this hypothesis to the test by providing a breakdown of deaths for the whole month of September and received the following in reply:
"Complying with your request I have checked again daily rates of deaths in the "Sterbebuch" register for September 1942; this was about 20-70 death cases a day, grouped roughly in regular manner.
September 1 86
September 2 43
September 3 40
September 4 48
September 5 24
September 6 19
September 7 38
September 8 63
September 9 12
September 10 68
September 11 19
September 12 12
September 13 73
September 14 78
September 15 23
September 27 127"
Unless I'm missing something obvious, the Death Books therefore do not support a homicidal interpretation of the term Sonderaktion as used by Dr. Kremer.


Something is wrong here.
Look at: http://www.vho.org/VffG/2002/4/Image4.gif, which is a table condensed from the Sterbebücher for the period in question.

Something is wrong. In the period from Sept. 7 to 11, 1942 was a major outbreak of a typhus epidemic with up to 375 daily deaths.

You may also want to consult the following essays in the latest VffG magazine which deal with Sterbebücher, Stärkebücher and compare with Danuta Czech’s ‘Kalendarium’.
http://www.vho.org/VffG/2002/4/Gaertner ... 5-436.html
http://www.vho.org/VffG/2002/4/HilleNowak385-394.html
And about French deportees to Auschwitz:
http://www.vho.org/VffG/1998/3/Aynat3.html
These articles are all in German

:D

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Re: Sterbebücher

Postby Hebden » 2 decades 2 months ago (Tue Mar 11, 2003 9:14 pm)

We're scrubbing this post on the grounds of redundancy.
Last edited by Hebden on Sat Mar 15, 2003 1:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Malle » 2 decades 2 months ago (Tue Mar 11, 2003 9:45 pm)

Here are the compiled death tolls by Greg Raven. You can
find it at http://www.air-photo.com/english/deathbooks.html

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Postby Hebden » 2 decades 2 months ago (Sat Mar 15, 2003 6:47 am)

We believe the list refers only to female prisoners. In September 1942, the number of women in Auschwitz was far fewer than the number of men.

It is interesting though that the period September 7-11th does show a sudden upward blip in what we presume are total inmate deaths. Perhaps the women were listed as men for camouflage purposes?!


We wonder, in a hubristic moment, if our little discovery isn't the most important revisionist finding of the last 40 years. Which would put us in the firmament above the likes of Mr. Rassinier, Mr. Faurisson, Mr. Butz and Mr. Mattogno.

What logically could be flawed in our argument or reasoning?

1) The figure of 800.

The Auschwitz Calendar for September 5 has:

The SS Camp Doctor carries out a selection among the female prisoners in Block 27 of the prisoners' infirmary in the women's camp of Birkenau. He selects all the sick Jewesses, about 800 women. They are killed in the gas chamber the same day. Dr. Kremer, who is present at the selection and gassing writes in his diary: "Noon today at a special operation at the FKL. 'Moslems': the most ghastly of the ghastly. Master Sergeant Thilo, Troop Doctor, is right when he said to me today that we are here at the anus mundi [anus of the world]."

A footnote reads:

In the protocol of the hearing of July 18, 1947, in Krakow, Kremer explains his entry thus: "I remember that I once took part in a daily gassing of such a group of women. How big the group was, I can't say. When I came to the vicinity of the bunker, they were sitting on the ground. Since they were in worn-out camp clothing, they were not allowed in the undressing barracks but rather undressed out in the open. From the behavior of these women, I concluded that they were clear about the fate that awaited them, since they were pleading with the SS Men around them and crying; nevertheless, they were all driven into the gas chamber and gassed."

The ASM gave this explanation of where Ms. Czech had derived the number of 800:

Nevertheless, I think that this hint in the footnote came from a book by Danuta Czech “Chronicle of the Most Important Events from the History of KL Auschwitz” (so called “Calendar”). She quoted a testimony by Dr Kremer given in his trial in Cracow, (vol. 16, p. 55) when he was listing major “actions” during his stay in Auschwitz: “Im September 1942 ging dann einmal der jüdische Krankenblock (Block 27), es waren über 800 Menschen” (he used the word: “Menschen” while referred to both sexes).

I know that this interpretation probably does not meet all criteria of modern scholarship, but explanation given by Danuta Czech is not completely unjustified.


It is possible then that the figure of 800 and the selection from the Jewish 'sick-block' does not refer to the September 5 action. The figure for September 5th could be far smaller, numbering in the tens rather than the hundreds (as might be expected given the number of registered women prisoners to date). But would a separate action, with all the time and trouble involved, really be sanctioned for the sake of a few dozen people? Why not, for instance, include them in the action which took place later in the day upon the arrival of the transport from Holland or dispose of them with phenol injections?

2) both men and women were involved;

Despite Dr. Kremer's diary reference to the FKL (women's camp) and his later testimony that only women were gassed at the Bunker, it's conceivable that male Moslems were also involved, with their selection having taken place separately with Dr. Kremer not in attendance.

3) the data in Death Books is misleading.

From the Mattogno/Deana chapter in Dissecting the Holocaust:

"This analysis is complicated due to the fact that in the original Sterbebücher of the camp single certificates of the deceased were not tabulated according to the date of the death of the inmate, but according to the date of the registration of the death, and the relative numerical registrations follow exactly this chronological order."

We don't know what this means in practical terms but we must trust the ASM staff are aware of this circumstance and have provided correct figures.

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Postby Sailor » 2 decades 2 months ago (Sat Mar 15, 2003 10:38 pm)

Hebden wrote: We wonder, in a hubristic moment, if our little discovery isn't the most important revisionist finding of the last 40 years. Which would put us in the firmament above the likes of Mr. Rassinier, Mr. Faurisson, Mr. Butz and Mr. Mattogno.


Messrs. Rassinier, Faurisson, Butz and Mattogno, meet Dr. Einstein! :D :D :D :D

The Auschwitz Calendar for September 5 has:

The SS Camp Doctor carries out a selection among the female prisoners[…]


In my copy of Danuta Czech’s “Auschwitz Chronicle”, edition 1997, the entry for September 5, including the foot note, does not say this at all. It is on page 234 of the book and the text is totally different from your quote. There is nothing mentioned about 800 Jewesses.

Are we reading the same book?

Despite Dr. Kremer's diary reference to the FKL (women's camp) and his later testimony that only women were gassed at the Bunker,[…]


I would be very skeptical about Dr. Kremer’s testimonies during the Krakow trials in Poland. The man recanted after he returned to Germany.

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Postby Hebden » 2 decades 2 months ago (Sun Mar 16, 2003 1:22 am)

Sailor wrote:
Hebden wrote: We wonder, in a hubristic moment, if our little discovery isn't the most important revisionist finding of the last 40 years. Which would put us in the firmament above the likes of Mr. Rassinier, Mr. Faurisson, Mr. Butz and Mr. Mattogno.


Messrs. Rassinier, Faurisson, Butz and Mattogno, meet Dr. Einstein! :D :D :D :D


If not a Nobel Prize, at least we deserve our own page at CODOH.

The Auschwitz Calendar for September 5 has:

Th
e SS Camp Doctor carries out a selection among the female prisoners[…]


In my copy of Danuta Czech’s “Auschwitz Chronicle”, edition 1997, the entry for September 5, including the foot note, does not say this at all. It is on page 234 of the book and the text is totally different from your quote. There is nothing mentioned about 800 Jewesses.

Are we reading the same book?


Try page 233.

Despite Dr. Kremer's diary reference to the FKL (women's camp) and his later testimony that only women were gassed at the Bunker,[…]


I would be very skeptical about Dr. Kremer’s testimonies during the Krakow trials in Poland. The man recanted after he returned to Germany.


One can hardly be under any illusions about the nature of Communist trials.

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Postby Hebden » 2 decades 2 months ago (Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:48 am)

Sailor wrote:I would be very skeptical about Dr. Kremer’s testimonies during the Krakow trials in Poland. The man recanted after he returned to Germany.


This is from the introduction to the book KL Auschwitz Seen By the SS:

"Arrested by the British, who also found his inadequately hidden diary, Kremer was extradited to Poland and found himself in the dock together with the Auschwitz garrison, at their trial heard by the Supreme National Tribunal in Cracow. Sentenced to death on December 22, 1947, he evaded the hangman's rope reprieved on account of his advanced years. After ten years of imprisonment he was discharged and returned to Germany on January 10, 1958.

"He was a model, even humble, prisoner in Polish prison, just like other Nazi prisoners, but he changed, as if by magic, as soon as he crossed the frontier of the Federal Republic of Germany. He began to enact the role of a martyr of "the German cause", trying to rouse sympathy with his person. This was not a wise move but then wisdom was never Kremer's strong point.

"As a result of his autopropaganda he was put in the dock again and was sentenced to ten years in which his term of imprisonment in Poland was included. So he was a free man. His sentence did, however, influence his life. The University of Munster divested him of his doctor's degree, as it could not tolerate an acknowledged war criminal among its staff. Kremer died in the 1960's."


Some details of Dr. Kremer's 'autopropaganda' would be welcome because substantiation of claims that certain SS men recanted their testimony always seems to be lacking.

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Postby Sailor » 2 decades 2 months ago (Mon Mar 17, 2003 11:10 am)

All I have on this is from Faurisson http://www.vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/6/2/ ... 3-181.html

[…]
c. The Testimony of Johann Paul Kremer (He Retracted His Confession)
The LICRA reproached me for having "voluntarily distorted certain testimonies such as that of Johann Paul Kremer." I will not go back on that subject. I have already dealt with it in my above-mentioned article. I demonstrated that it was, to the contrary, Poliakov, Wellers, and Klarsfeld who had seriously distorted the original text of Johann Paul Kremer's private notebooks in order to make him say that Auschwitz was an extermination camp with gas chambers. I likewise showed the absurdity of the alleged confessions obtained from him by the Polish Stalinist military court.
I said that Professor Kremer, appearing before the tribunal in Münster (Westphalia) in 1960, had confirmed the confession that Communist examining magistrate Jan Sehn (of Jewish origin?) had obtained from him in 1947 and that at the Frankfurt Trial (1963-1965) he had been called as a prosecution witness against his compatriots. What I did not yet know in 1980 and what I learned later is the reason why the poor man, after ten years of prison in Poland (1947-1957) and after returning to his city of Münster, had gone before a German tribunal. I discovered the reason while reading, in its French version, the Anthologie d'Auschwitz (blue), Volume 1, Part 1, Warsaw, 1969, pp.239 to 261.The reason is that after his return to Münster in 1957, Kremer began to protest against the treatment that he had undergone at the hands of the Polish courts and (using here the words used by the Polish Communists themselves in the “Anthologie”)

[by his protests and by his request to regain his chair as a professor, Kremer attracted the attention] of certain circles and of certain persons who made him appear once more before the Courts (p.239).

Kremer, as a matter of fact, had complained that in Poland "only hatred was entitled to give its opinion" (p.240). Better than that, we learn, thanks to that Communist publication, that after his return to Münster Kremer retracted his confessions. In the pious Communist jargon:

[Kremer] disputed the explanations that he had furnished during the investigation in Cracow and which had been read to him [at the Münster tribunal] (p.242).

The most degrading fact for the judges of the Münster tribunal was the complacency with which they had heard the explanations furnished by Jan Sehn, who had come from Cracow. You must read the Communist account of that session. It ought to be quoted in its entirety. In Cracow in 1947, Kremer had not had any choice. It had been necessary for him to confess. The most astonishing thing is what Jan Sehn himself ended up saying before the German judges. As far as he was concerned, from the start Kremer did not have the right to plead not guilty. Jan Sehn said, with a marvelous lack of awareness of what he was saying:

A declaration of innocence would have been incompatible with what the accused had written [in his private diary] (p.246).

In other words, the Communist Jan Sehn had decided that Kremer's private diary was written in a sort of coded language to which he, Jan Sehn, possessed the key. Prisoner Kremer could only bow before the authority and the ukase (An edict of the Russian tsar. Sailor) of examining magistrate Jan Sehn. In my lecture in 1980 I said, in conclusion, regarding the drama of Johann Paul Kremer: "I think often of that old man. I think sometimes also of his tormentors" (p.127). I think of him even more often now that I have the confirmation of the drama lived through by Professor Johann Paul Kremer. His Polish and German tormentors profited from him to the very end. Kremer was used like a puppet. He came to the Frankfurt Trial to make a forced appearance there. According to his own words, he had experienced a dilemma that is not simple for human understanding." Listen to his final declaration at the Münster trial in 1960 and tell me whether that declaration is that of an abominable criminal who supposedly participated in horrible homicidal gassings or rather that of an unfortunate academic, a sort of inoffensive old fellow who found himself caught - like so many Germans in the past and even today - in a tragic situation where it is necessary to confess (or to make a pretense of confessing) vile crimes which, in reality, were never committed. Listen to Kremer and, through his voice, listen to the voice of so many Germans who have been humiliated, injured and executed:

If according to human criteria I have done something evil, I can only ask you to take into consideration my age and my tragic fate. I have no knowledge of any offense in the juridical and penal sense. I entrust to the Supreme Judge of everyone the task of resolving a dilemma that is not simple for human understanding (p.258).

Professor Kremer, in the final account, was less skillful and prudent than his fellow professor, Wilhelm Pfannenstiel, in the Gerstein case. Pfannenstiel, the father of five children, was able to save a good career for himself thanks to his extremely vague confessions.


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