Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

[Hektor]

Thanks for the updates and doing the debate. I think it's very healthy to discuss these things in the open (well, as close to open as is allowed these days).

That's the thing... any open civil debate is banned. And what's done is either suppress it completely moving it to the fringe of attention... Or derail the debates, which can be done in various ways.

[curioussoul]

Thomas Dalton's closing statement is up. Given the limitations, I am very impressed by Dalton's ability to succinctly deconstruct the broader myth of the Holocaust without necessarily zooming in on individual documents or witness statements.

I am also impressed by Dalton's grace. He has given Matt more respect and patience than any orthodox Holocaust author has ever given a revisionist. Given Matt's almost non-existent credentials and profile, Matt should be very happy that someone like Dalton agreed to debate him.

Having weighed both sides objectively, I think it's pretty obvious Dalton came out on top here.

[greatmystery]

Not only do the posts contain your exact verbiage and almost direct copy-pastes of your own thread titles, and the exact image files used on your own blog, but they also contain almost complete paragraphs of faulty arguments you made on your blog about the Reinhard camps.

I'll leave it up to the readers to decide whether it's plausible that "fans" of Mike Enoch would post links to a random Substack blog claiming he backed out of a debate, or whether fans of "Veronica" - a person who has not been relevant since 2017 - would likewise post links to a random, practically-unknown Substack blog claiming she's now a Holocaust affirmer.

Edit: Unsurprisingly, Matt made a new post admitting that he was indeed posting on 4chan's "/pol/" sewer about Mike - just not the particular threads point out by me and my source. Sure Matt, sure thing.

Edit 2: Oh, and if you want to have a serious debate about the Holocaust, this might just be the place for you. Wouldn't you say? We can discuss anything you'd like in detail, without the nonsensical word limits. There are plenty of users on here willing to debunk the historiographical slop you're spewing on that blog of yours.

As Mike Peniovich's (aka Mike Enoch) wife, I can confirm that he never backed out of the debate at any point. As of now it is set for June 17th.
HS is all too eager to post libel and ad homs. Is this the behavior of scholar? I think not.

If you'd like to see another example of the unscholarly behavior of HS check out my article here,
https://www.holocaust.claims/general/ho ... n-twitter/
where I detail how HS made a critique of my writing rather than addressing the issue.

[HistorySpeaks]

If any of you are interested, I'm going to be paying (via the first donation I've had as a content creator) for a professional, audio-recorded version of this debate, and uploading it to YT.

Don't worry I won't tell them to make Dalton sound evil lol.

[HistorySpeaks]

Not only do the posts contain your exact verbiage and almost direct copy-pastes of your own thread titles, and the exact image files used on your own blog, but they also contain almost complete paragraphs of faulty arguments you made on your blog about the Reinhard camps.

I'll leave it up to the readers to decide whether it's plausible that "fans" of Mike Enoch would post links to a random Substack blog claiming he backed out of a debate, or whether fans of "Veronica" - a person who has not been relevant since 2017 - would likewise post links to a random, practically-unknown Substack blog claiming she's now a Holocaust affirmer.

Edit: Unsurprisingly, Matt made a new post admitting that he was indeed posting on 4chan's "/pol/" sewer about Mike - just not the particular threads point out by me and my source. Sure Matt, sure thing.

Edit 2: Oh, and if you want to have a serious debate about the Holocaust, this might just be the place for you. Wouldn't you say? We can discuss anything you'd like in detail, without the nonsensical word limits. There are plenty of users on here willing to debunk the historiographical slop you're spewing on that blog of yours.

As Mike Peniovich's (aka Mike Enoch) wife, I can confirm that he never backed out of the debate at any point. As of now it is set for June 17th.
HS is all too eager to post libel and ad homs. Is this the behavior of scholar? I think not.

If you'd like to see another example of the unscholarly behavior of HS check out my article here,
https://www.holocaust.claims/general/ho ... n-twitter/
where I detail how HS made a critique of my writing rather than addressing the issue.

Great Mystery, please try to get your husband to answer his emails. I just want to pin down a structure for the debate. I had no problem doing this with either of the three people I previously debated (Marshall Lore, Jim Rizoli, Dalton), none of whom accused me of unfairness; Mike is the outlier.

The viewers deserve a lengthy debate that ensures equal time to both speakers and allows us to cover all major facets of a massive historical event (continental genocide). Mike's previous call for a debate as short as 30 minutes is ridiculous and would not allow for a substantive, comprehensive debate.

[HistorySpeaks]

Not only do the posts contain your exact verbiage and almost direct copy-pastes of your own thread titles, and the exact image files used on your own blog, but they also contain almost complete paragraphs of faulty arguments you made on your blog about the Reinhard camps.

I'll leave it up to the readers to decide whether it's plausible that "fans" of Mike Enoch would post links to a random Substack blog claiming he backed out of a debate, or whether fans of "Veronica" - a person who has not been relevant since 2017 - would likewise post links to a random, practically-unknown Substack blog claiming she's now a Holocaust affirmer.

Edit: Unsurprisingly, Matt made a new post admitting that he was indeed posting on 4chan's "/pol/" sewer about Mike - just not the particular threads point out by me and my source. Sure Matt, sure thing.

Edit 2: Oh, and if you want to have a serious debate about the Holocaust, this might just be the place for you. Wouldn't you say? We can discuss anything you'd like in detail, without the nonsensical word limits. There are plenty of users on here willing to debunk the historiographical slop you're spewing on that blog of yours.

As Mike Peniovich's (aka Mike Enoch) wife, I can confirm that he never backed out of the debate at any point. As of now it is set for June 17th.
HS is all too eager to post libel and ad homs. Is this the behavior of scholar? I think not.

If you'd like to see another example of the unscholarly behavior of HS check out my article here,
https://www.holocaust.claims/general/ho ... n-twitter/
where I detail how HS made a critique of my writing rather than addressing the issue.

Great Mystery, please try to get your husband to answer his emails. I just want to pin down a structure for the debate. I had no problem doing this with either of the three people I previously debated (Marshall Lore, Jim Rizoli, Dalton), none of whom accused me of unfairness; Mike is the outlier.

The viewers deserve a lengthy debate that ensures equal time to both speakers and allows us to cover all major facets of a massive historical event (continental genocide). Mike's previous call for a debate as short as 30 minutes is ridiculous and would not allow for a substantive, comprehensive debate.

EDIT: I have posted a substack https://historyspeaks.substack.com/p/more-on-mike-enoch proposing the rules of our 17 June debate. Make sure Mike sees it.

[hermod]

As I mentioned in the debate with Dalton: an explanation with incomplete evidence (in this case the incomplete but still colossal physical evidence of the death of the 1.4 million Jews, as well as all the testimonial and documentary evidence) is superior to an explanation with zero physical evidence (resettlements of Reinhardt Jews).

Also, there are no genocides or wars where we exhume all the bodies and do a "skull count."

An argument that is both false and fallacious.

There is no colossal evidence of the death of 1.4 million Jews at the Reinhardt camps and there was more than enough room for the resettlement of the deported Jews (10 years ago, orthodox/antirevisionist historians announced that they had evidence for the existence of 42,500 Nazi camps and ghettos throughout Europe during WWII).

And such an argument can successfully 'prove' the existence of alien abductions, witchcraft and the Loch Ness Monster. So many testimonial & documentary 'proofs' of those things...

[Hektor]

As I mentioned in the debate with Dalton: an explanation with incomplete evidence (in this case the incomplete but still colossal physical evidence of the death of the 1.4 million Jews, as well as all the testimonial and documentary evidence) is superior to an explanation with zero physical evidence (resettlements of Reinhardt Jews).

Also, there are no genocides or wars where we exhume all the bodies and do a "skull count."

An argument that is both false and fallacious.

There is no colossal evidence of the death of 1.4 million Jews at the Reinhardt camps and there was more than enough room for the resettlement of the deported Jews (10 years ago, orthodox/antirevisionist historians announced that they had evidence for the existence of 42,500 Nazi camps and ghettos throughout Europe during WWII).
.....

"Colossal evidence" would be for 1.4 dead people would be corresponding mass graves. If they e.g. would have discovered, investigated and documented a mass grave with the remains of e.g. 10.000 people. Then one would have something to look at. Taken it won't prove the Killing of 1.400.000 people, but one would at least have a starting point to look at. 80 years, lots of theater, but they don't even have this little starting point. To demand that people have to believe their tales is rather arrogant, insulting and rather rich in a negative sense.

[Merlin300]

As I mentioned in the debate with Dalton: an explanation with incomplete evidence (in this case the incomplete but still colossal physical evidence of the death of the 1.4 million Jews, as well as all the testimonial and documentary evidence) is superior to an explanation with zero physical evidence (resettlements of Reinhardt Jews).

Also, there are no genocides or wars where we exhume all the bodies and do a "skull count."

An argument that is both false and fallacious.

There is no colossal evidence of the death of 1.4 million Jews at the Reinhardt camps and there was more than enough room for the resettlement of the deported Jews (10 years ago, orthodox/antirevisionist historians announced that they had evidence for the existence of 42,500 Nazi camps and ghettos throughout Europe during WWII).
.....

"Colossal evidence" would be for 1.4 dead people would be corresponding mass graves. If they e.g. would have discovered, investigated and documented a mass grave with the remains of e.g. 10.000 people. Then one would have something to look at. Taken it won't prove the Killing of 1.400.000 people, but one would at least have a starting point to look at. 80 years, lots of theater, but they don't even have this little starting point. To demand that people have to believe their tales is rather arrogant, insulting and rather rich in a negative sense.

The difference between a war or a genocide is that Holocaust Belief claims that most of the mass murders of millions of people
occurred at specific spots. Take Treblinka II, Holocaust Believers claim that 900,000 bodies were buried in two acres inside the Camp.
See. https://www.hdot.org/wp-content/uploads ... o_1944.jpg
for Believer map.

There have been numerous attempts to find any trace of either bodies or burnt bodies, starting with the Soviets in August 1944.
Judge Zdzisław Łukaszkiewicz tried in November 1945 and even did a "skull count." He found and photographed 14 skulls!
So, yes remains of a few hundred bodies and partially cremated bodies were found. Łukaszkiewicz was extremely vague on details but
the number of dead was certainly less than 2,000. 2,000 would be a "normal" number of deaths in an Arbeitslager over a 3 year period.

Evidence of an Arbeitslager . It is worth noting that the Germans left a very large amount of evidence of the Treblinka camps.
Fences, many building slabs and basements, garbage pits, and the rail lines. We know of Treblinka was an active
work camp centered around the huge quarry. Daily rail cars of gravel rolled past the site of the alleged "gas chambers" Groups of
inmates workers left Treblinka to work on defense projects and Polish civilians worked in the quarry
This is all entirely inconsistent with tales of a top secret extermination facility.

Destruction of evidence We also know from post-August 1944 aerial and Soviet Liberation photographs that the physical evidence of the work camp was left by the Germans. However, destruction of evidence began shortly after the Soviets arrived. Łukaszkiewicz reports that Soviet munitions
were used to blow numerous holes in the ground (he neglects to give the number). Later, the Poles removed the rails to the camp and
built "monuments" over other camp remains.

Caroline Sturdy Colls,
The attempts of British investigator Caroline Sturdy Colls to discover human remains was the subject of a made for television show.
Hitler's Killing Machine. The clownish and dishonest attempts to pass off a trademark of local tile maker as a "Star of David"
the "surprise" of finding human remains in a local cemetery have been widely commented on.

At the time the Soviets overran Majdanek Camp (July 22, 1944) they claimed that 400,000 bodies were buried in the fields to the South East
of the camp. Of course this was not true but the Allied press kindly ignored the gaff. However the gaff probably caused the Soviets to
start the destruction of inconvenient evidence at Treblinka two months later.


To close the circle, Wartime Soviet claims of discovery of graves with tens of thousands of bodies in them devolved by November 1944
to tales of disposing bodies by converting them into road pavement, (Treblinka) fertilizer and pathway material (Majdanek) or soap and
sausage (Auschwitz)

[hermod]

The difference between a war or a genocide is that Holocaust Belief claims that most of the mass murders of millions of people
occurred at specific spots. Take Treblinka II, Holocaust Believers claim that 900,000 bodies were buried in two acres inside the Camp.
See. https://www.hdot.org/wp-content/uploads ... o_1944.jpg
for Believer map.

There have been numerous attempts to find any trace of either bodies or burnt bodies, starting with the Soviets in August 1944.
Judge Zdzisław Łukaszkiewicz tried in November 1945 and even did a "skull count." He found and photographed 14 skulls!
So, yes remains of a few hundred bodies and partially cremated bodies were found. Łukaszkiewicz was extremely vague on details but
the number of dead was certainly less than 2,000. 2,000 would be a "normal" number of deaths in an Arbeitslager over a 3 year period.

Evidence of an Arbeitslager . It is worth noting that the Germans left a very large amount of evidence of the Treblinka camps.
Fences, many building slabs and basements, garbage pits, and the rail lines. We know of Treblinka was an active
work camp centered around the huge quarry. Daily rail cars of gravel rolled past the site of the alleged "gas chambers" Groups of
inmates workers left Treblinka to work on defense projects and Polish civilians worked in the quarry
This is all entirely inconsistent with tales of a top secret extermination facility.

Destruction of evidence We also know from post-August 1944 aerial and Soviet Liberation photographs that the physical evidence of the work camp was left by the Germans. However, destruction of evidence began shortly after the Soviets arrived. Łukaszkiewicz reports that Soviet munitions
were used to blow numerous holes in the ground (he neglects to give the number). Later, the Poles removed the rails to the camp and
built "monuments" over other camp remains.

Caroline Sturdy Colls,
The attempts of British investigator Caroline Sturdy Colls to discover human remains was the subject of a made for television show.
Hitler's Killing Machine. The clownish and dishonest attempts to pass off a trademark of local tile maker as a "Star of David"
the "surprise" of finding human remains in a local cemetery have been widely commented on.

At the time the Soviets overran Majdanek Camp (July 22, 1944) they claimed that 400,000 bodies were buried in the fields to the South East
of the camp. Of course this was not true but the Allied press kindly ignored the gaff. However the gaff probably caused the Soviets to
start the destruction of inconvenient evidence at Treblinka two months later.

To close the circle, Wartime Soviet claims of discovery of graves with tens of thousands of bodies in them devolved by November 1944
to tales of disposing bodies by converting them into road pavement, (Treblinka) fertilizer and pathway material (Majdanek) or soap and
sausage (Auschwitz)

The Soviets had made crystal clear 2 full years before the end of WWII that no physical evidence for their atrocity stories was to be expected from them.

For info, the crematory destruction of evidence was a rehash of a WWI propaganda lie claiming that the Germans had secretly incinerated many of their dead soldiers in the blast furnaces of Belgium in order to conceal their "real" casualties at the front.

https://postimg.cc/3W71RSv1

https://postimg.cc/rDztsWjQ

[Rockartisten]

If any of you are interested, I'm going to be paying (via the first donation I've had as a content creator) for a professional, audio-recorded version of this debate, and uploading it to YT.

Don't worry I won't tell them to make Dalton sound evil lol.

I vote for Morgan Freeman as Dalton.

[Hektor]

The difference between a war or a genocide is that Holocaust Belief claims that most of the mass murders of millions of people
occurred at specific spots. Take Treblinka II, Holocaust Believers claim that 900,000 bodies were buried in two acres inside the Camp.
See. https://www.hdot.org/wp-content/uploads ... o_1944.jpg
for Believer map.
....
To close the circle, Wartime Soviet claims of discovery of graves with tens of thousands of bodies in them devolved by November 1944
to tales of disposing bodies by converting them into road pavement, (Treblinka) fertilizer and pathway material (Majdanek) or soap and
sausage (Auschwitz)

...

For info, the crematory destruction of evidence was a rehash of a WWI propaganda lie claiming that the Germans had secretly incinerated many of their dead soldiers in the blast furnaces of Belgium in order to conceal their "real" casualties at the front.
....

Now that's pretty convenient, when you don't expect to find evidence:
https://archive.ph/iG30f

Simply claim that the 'fiendish Nazi made it all vanish'. But that's impossible! "Not with savvy German methods!"


They got an answer for everything and a method that can prove anything. Well, than they have proven nothing.

[hermod]

The difference between a war or a genocide is that Holocaust Belief claims that most of the mass murders of millions of people
occurred at specific spots. Take Treblinka II, Holocaust Believers claim that 900,000 bodies were buried in two acres inside the Camp.
See. https://www.hdot.org/wp-content/uploads ... o_1944.jpg
for Believer map.
....
To close the circle, Wartime Soviet claims of discovery of graves with tens of thousands of bodies in them devolved by November 1944
to tales of disposing bodies by converting them into road pavement, (Treblinka) fertilizer and pathway material (Majdanek) or soap and
sausage (Auschwitz)

...

For info, the crematory destruction of evidence was a rehash of a WWI propaganda lie claiming that the Germans had secretly incinerated many of their dead soldiers in the blast furnaces of Belgium in order to conceal their "real" casualties at the front.
....

Now that's pretty convenient, when you don't expect to find evidence:
https://archive.ph/iG30f
Simply claim that the 'fiendish Nazi made it all vanish'. But that's impossible! "Not with savvy German methods!"

They got an answer for everything and a method that can prove anything. Well, than they have proven nothing.

Very convenient! And also super timely!! Claiming that the Germans were exhuming and cremating an extravagant number of their [nonexistent] victims at a time when the Germans had been exhuming and exposing a large number of your [only too real] victims (international media coverage of the Katyn mass graves) was a very helpful [alleged] coincidence in a Soviet perspective, wasn't it?