Wyatt: 'What revisionists get wrong about cremation.'

[wyatt]

"1 hour"

This is the major flaw in argumentation that i see around the internet regarding in particular auschwitz and its ovens. When you use a goofy baseline based on normality and procedure of modern crematoria. You get lost in the fact of what was actually taking place.

Many deniers will claim that it takes AT LEAST an hour or even MORE to cremate a body to ash. And they are 100% absolutely correct. But they somehow try to apply this to the holocaust and what went on inside the krematoria at auschwitz.

This is the fatal flaw in denier math. Functionally , if you are getting rid of bodies en-mass. It does not take 1 hour to "cremate" a body. Since what you are doing is not cremation. Its just destruction.

To put it simply. When deniers engage in mathematics regarding cremation capacity. They kneecap themselves by assuming that the bodies are going to be treated with any sort of respect and each corpse will be allowed to burn through all the way. Or even worse. Deniers assume that a body will at the 59 minute mark , simply go from a human sized object to a puff of ash going up the chimney.

The reality is a bodies size and composition immediately starts changing. In the case of a human being. Within 20 minutes most of the body is burned away. It was at this point , eyewitnesses say , that new bodies were added and the remaining clumps of remains that were still burning were dumped or pushed to the back of the oven.

When you incorporate this accurate math into the equation. You get numbers matching the famous cremation capacity document

Lets do some math

Krema 2. (OLD MATH)
14 ovens.
3 bodies per oven
24 hours (hour representing a body load)
24 loads

14x3x24= 1008


Thats WAY too low! even with multiple bodies


But what if we add a body at the 20 minute mark when room is available as many sonderkommando witnesses testify?

Krema 2 (actual math)
14 ovens
3 bodies per oven
1440 minutes in a day
20 minute intervals
72 loads

14x3x72=3024


Now thats WAY TOO MUCH? so what went wrong?

Its simple. You factor in efficiency. This is a human operated machine. There is nobody with a stopwatch adding in bodies every 20 minutes on the dot. Its a "look and feel" operation.

What happens if you add in some inefficient labor to the math? 30 minute body loading intervals instead of the reported 20?

Krema 2 (inefficiency model)
14 ovens
3 bodies per oven
1440 minutes in a day
30 minute intervals
48 loads

14x3x48= 2016 bodies


2016 is pretty close. But not close enough. What exactly is missing? maybe shift changes? more inefficiency? I could keep doing this. Taking away minutes or vice versa. But you now understand how the math actually works. (and i was generous with the 3 bodies since they would toss infants in there raising loads to 5 or more)

Getting 1400 bodies from 14 ovens a day is well beyond the actual mechanical capabilities of the machines. the problem of the math has always been deniers not understanding the process

[Lamprecht]

Cremation capacities is not an argument I tend to resort to. Not because it doesn't show the absurdity of the narrative, but because at Treblinka, Belzec, and Sobibor allegedly hundreds of thousands were gassed at these camps ... but there were no crematoria at all! They were just burned in giant outdoor hibachis. See:

Holocaust Stories vs Science - How Does Open Air Cremation Work // Treblinka Cremations debunked
viewtopic.php?t=12710

The document is totally fake

Bischoff Letter Dated June 28th 1943 and Krema 4
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12164

What exactly is missing? maybe shift changes? more inefficiency? I could keep doing this.

The ovens were not necessarily used simultaneously. You're not factoring in long periods of breakdowns and even idleness.

from the interrogations of Topf engineers by the Soviet SMERSH between 1946 and 1948, as were published by Gerald Fleming:

"How many bodies were cremated per hour at Auschwitz?"
Prüfer (builder of the crematorium) responded:
"In a crematory with 5 ovens and 15 muffles, fifteen bodies were cremated."

At his interrogation on 19th March 1946 Prüfer elaborated as follows:
"I have mentioned the enormous load to which the overtaxed ovens were subjected. I told Chief Engineer Sander I was worried about whether the ovens could withstand the excessive load. In my presence, two bodies were placed in one muffle, instead of a single body, and the ovens were unable to handle the load"

A superior method would to use larger ovens so they could cremate multiple people at one time. Individual crematoria are not efficient for mass murder. Use something more like a blast furnace

[Hektor]

Cremation capacities is not an argument I tend to resort to. Not because it doesn't show the absurdity of the narrative, but because at Treblinka, Belzec, and Sobibor allegedly hundreds of thousands were gassed at these camps ... but there were no crematoria at all! They were just burned in giant outdoor hibachis. See:
....

It seems Holocaust Believers should even less resort to it:

Krema 2. (OLD MATH)
14 ovens.
3 bodies per oven
24 hours (hour representing a body load)
24 loads

14x3x24= 1008


Thats WAY too low! even with multiple bodies


But what if we add a body at the 20 minute mark when room is available as many sonderkommando witnesses testify?

Krema 2 (actual math)
14 ovens
3 bodies per oven
1440 minutes in a day
20 minute intervals
72 loads

14x3x72=3024

There is a difference between ovens and muffles. For Krema II it's 5 ovens with each 3 muffles making 15 muffles in total.
But leave the figures aside, the issue is that the ovens create hot air which streams through the muffles to first dehydrate the corpses and then finally burn them. You need space to allow for suitable airflow. If you over stack them you brake the air flow either speeding it up (so the air can't give off the heat) or you clog the system altogether. So no playing tricks with pushing in more corpses there. And also no opening the muffle during process and add a corpse. That's a no, no for a number of reasons. One hour total operation time for a cremation is probably not enough neither, since there is a cooling down and cleaning time required. Impossible in the continuous model of operation.

You can't use the ovens/muffles 24hours/7days on continuum neither. There are serious down times required to keep the system stable and then there is maintenance to be done on the Krema as well. More load, more maintenance. That one needs to subtract from available time. And then there is the question about the maintenance records of course. This should reflect. What also should reflect is records of the coal consumption.

That dog won't hunt, I'm afraid. The Auschwitz administration was actually offered more suitable equipment for mass-cremation, but they declined. The doesn't fly here and the cremation capacity/facility is just another tiny detail in the reasons why.

[Lamprecht]

The Auschwitz administration was actually offered more suitable equipment for mass-cremation, but they declined.

Is there any more info on that?

---

The following ovens were superior to the ones used at Auschwitz, and didn't cremate a corpse in less than 30 minutes even under optimal conditions:

Crematoria of Terezín / Theresienstadt



Mattogno:

The Ignis-Hüttenbau ovens in Terezín were by far the most modern and efficient of all those ever installed in German concentration camps. Their design had been inspired by the gas-fired Volckmann-Ludwig ovens. Additionally, they were equipped with a powerful forced-draft blower and an adjustable oil burner. We will later return to these special installations.

The examination of 717 cremations performed in these ovens between October 3 and November 15, 1943 (41 days), results in the following:

- The minimal average cremation time on a single day was about 32 min. in oven no. III (November 9, 1943, with 23 cremations) and about 31 min. in oven no. IV (October 10.)
- The average duration of all cremations was about 36 min. in both ovens.
- 491 of the 682 cremations, for which the duration is indicated, lasted 35 minutes or less (72%,); 22% lasted between 40 and 45 min., 42 lasted between 50 and 60 min., 1 lasted more than 60 min.
- In average, it took some 35 min. to cremate a female corpse, and around 36 min. to cremate a male corpse.

In order to save fuel, cremations were performed only in one oven at a time, so that it would be kept in thermal equilibrium. After a certain number of cremations, operation was passed on to the other oven, which was continued in a cyclic manner.
...
1. The shortest time required for a cremation resulting from experimental data referred to in this chapter is that of the Ignis-Hüttenbau oven in Terezín: 35-36 min. However, it is necessary to keep in mind to what this duration refers to and what made it possible. The Ignis-Hüttenbau ovens were much larger and bulkier than the Topf ovens. In particularly, their muffles were 100 cm high, 90 cm wide, and 260 cm long, while the respective dimensions of the Topf triple-muffle ovens were 80, 70, and 200 cm. The Terezín ovens allowed a procedure which was impossible with the Topf ovens: the body was introduced into the front of the muffle in a light coffin of unfinished boards, which was exposed to the combustion air injected from eight nozzles and the flame of the oil burner, thus quickly burning up. Generally after 30-35 minutes, when the body was basically dehydrated and disintegrated, it was pushed into the back part of the muffle. There, the main combustion took place and the remains fell into the post-combustion chamber. This way, another corpse could already be introduced after the last one had barely dehydrated.

2. Such a procedure was impossible with the Topf ovens, both because they were coke-fired and because the dimensions of its muffles rendered it impossible. In the Topf double-muffle oven of Gusen, the theoretical minimal duration of 40 min. depended first of all on the special structure of the refractory grill of the muffle (consisting of transversal and longitudinal beams forming eight rectangular openings of 30 cm × 25 cm),[146] which allowed huge body parts to fall into the post-combustion chamber pretty early, completing the main combustion in there and freeing the muffle for the next corpse. Secondly, the forced-draft blowers in Gusen were much more efficient than those installed in the crematorium at Auschwitz, where the same type of installation served six muffles instead of just two like in Gusen. Thus, the cremation capacity alleged in the Topf letter of July 14, 1941, was based on experiences with the oven at Gusen, but not with those of Auschwitz: the claimed capacity of 30 corpses in ca. 10 hours (= 40 min. for each cremation) assumed the highest obtainable forced-draft pressure. In the light of results obtained with the Ignis-Hüttenbau ovens, a capacity of 36 corpses in ca. 10 hours (= 33 min. for each cremation) was impossible to achieve as an average cremation time, a value that could be attained only in exceptional cases. The duration of 40 min. represents a minimum limit, which could not be achieved with the Topf ovens of Auschwitz-Birkenau.

3. The average duration of cremations performed at Westerbork was 50 min., which was confirmed by experiments performed by engineer Kessler. We must consider, however, that the Kori oven of Westerbork could provide more heat than the Topf ovens at Auschwitz due to a bigger fireplace area (0.8 m × 0.6 m, capacity of ca. 58 kg/h of coke),[147] as well as the Topf letter of November 1, 1940, cited above, speaking of an average duration of a cremation in the Auschwitz type oven of 60 min.[133]

4. The 60 min. duration of cremating a single body in the ovens at Birkenau was confirmed by the Topf engineers Kurt Prüfer and Karl Schultze during their interrogation by the Soviet counter-espionage service Smersh. During the interrogation on March 4, 1946, K. Schultz stated:[148]

"Five ovens were in two crematoria, and three corpses were introduced in each oven [one in each muffle], i.e., there were three openings (muffles) in each oven. In one crematorium with five ovens [and fifteen muffles], one could incinerate fifteen corpses in one hour."

During the interrogation on March 5, 1946, K. Prüfer explained why the cremation lasted so long in the Birkenau crematoria:[149]

"In civil crematoria, pre-heated air is blown in with the help of special bellows, due to which the corpse burns faster and without smoke. The construction of the crematoria for the concentration camps is different; it was not possible to pre-heat the air, as a result of which the corpse burned slower and with developing smoke. In order to reduce the smoke and the smell of a burning corpse, a fan is used.

Question: How many corpses would be cremated per hour in a crematorium in Auschwitz?

Answer: In a crematorium that had five ovens and fifteen muffles, one cremated fifteen corpses in an hour."

The Crematoria Ovens of Auschwitz and Birkenau
https://codoh.com/library/document/921/

[Otium]

To put it simply. When deniers engage in mathematics regarding cremation capacity. They kneecap themselves by assuming that the bodies are going to be treated with any sort of respect and each corpse will be allowed to burn through all the way. Or even worse. Deniers assume that a body will at the 59 minute mark , simply go from a human sized object to a puff of ash going up the chimney.

The reality is a bodies size and composition immediately starts changing. In the case of a human being. Within 20 minutes most of the body is burned away. It was at this point , eyewitnesses say , that new bodies were added and the remaining clumps of remains that were still burning were dumped or pushed to the back of the oven.

When you incorporate this accurate math into the equation. You get numbers matching the famous cremation capacity documentkrema burn body

This reminds me of the original twitter graphic you posted.

Which is suspect to say the LEAST. I responded to this on my forum topic here: https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12399&p=93660#p93660

But for the sake of this thread, I will repost my response to that graphic here as well.

I would like to note, that this idea 'women burned faster' isn't true, and was dealt with in the documentary: Auschwitz: The Surprising Hidden Truth http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=1005 in which it's showed that women only burn 3% faster than men. The idea as quoted in this graphic, that female bodies can essentially act as FUEL to speed up cremation without accounting for body water concentration is just ridiculous. And whatever happened to the other accusation these exterminationists make about how emaciated they would be? Surely the fat ratio between starved men and women couldn't possibly be enough for this?

In any case they themselves simply rely on eyewitness evidence without sourcing anything which supports their claims scientifically. It's all just 'what if'.

For example.

If you stuff 4 corpses into each muffle (2 adults + 2 children or infants) and it takes an entire hour for the contents to be somewhat reasonably cremated, to then be dropped to the ash collection channel below, so that the muffle is clear for the introduction of the next batch of bodies, the calculation checks out

This strikes me as so stupidly specific. If this as implied, is the only way the calculation 'checks out' I as an exterminationist would be quite scared for a few reasons. For one, I'd need to actually provide evidence that this was done and is possible, which I couldn't. Second this relies on the idea that they had an equal ratio of 2 adults + two children or infants, of which there's no way of actually making sure of. Eyewitnesses can claim this works, but simply thinking about the amount of times you'd have to work without this combination of bodies is extremely damaging to the claim made by these exterminationists.

We see this ALL the time, that these bodies somehow burned all on their own. This is rubbish from 'eyewitnesses' who have no idea how any of this works. Bodies do not burn by themselves, they do not act as fuel in a furnace that can only fit 2 people if you're lucky. And even then you need to make sure the extra body doesn't cool down the entire operation.

In the documentary I recommend you watch the entire thing, but on this note start from 22:30 for information on the cremation process.

For more information see Mattongos 2015 edition of 'The Cremation Furnaces at Auschwitz' http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?main_page=1&page_id=24

And I would like to know the source of the page you cite. It would be easier to find the suitable response if one exists.

[borjastick]

Firstly the idea that you can keep opening and withdrawing the load tray every twenty minutes to add another corpse is ridiculous. For all manner of practical reasons. Secondly the interior would need to be raked out and that would require the ovens to be cool or cold. Thirdly the lack of doing a full cremation by any decent standards of time would mean far more larger bones fragments none of which have been found in the pond, in the surrounding fields as claimed and in the river bed where the larger heavier bones would not be washed away.

Seems we can find animal and human remains from ancient historical sites but none from a sophisticated camp only 80 years ago. Hmmm Wyatt may have met his Tombstone...

[Otium]

One hour total operation time for a cremation is probably not enough neither, since there is a cooling down and cleaning time required. Impossible in the continuous model of operation.

You can't use the ovens/muffles 24hours/7days on continuum neither. There are serious down times required to keep the system stable and then there is maintenance to be done on the Krema as well. More load, more maintenance. That one needs to subtract from available time. And then there is the question about the maintenance records of course. This should reflect. What also should reflect is records of the coal consumption.

That dog won't hunt, I'm afraid. The Auschwitz administration was actually offered more suitable equipment for mass-cremation, but they declined. The doesn't fly here and the cremation capacity/facility is just another tiny detail in the reasons why.

There's also all the time it would take to move these supposed 2,500 bodies by 'cane' as alleged by Sonderkommando Dario Gabbai over 100 feet, through the small doors up the makeshift 'elevator' into the cremation room, this alone, day after day, hour after hour would be utterly exhausting and time consuming to say the least. It's impossible with the alleged equipment supposedly employed. All of the claims by Wyatt here depend on absolute perfect conditions without factoring in the other impossibilities, even Jewish revolt.

Seems we can find animal and human remains from ancient historical sites but none from a sophisticated camp only 80 years ago. Hmmm Wyatt may have met his Tombstone...

We shall see. Wyatt might log off and come back with some kind of magnum opus! He seems the type.

[Hektor]

The Auschwitz administration was actually offered more suitable equipment for mass-cremation, but they declined.

Is there any more info on that?
....

Yes, e.g. from the patent application of Topf and Soehne:


We discussed that previously:
viewtopic.php?t=10617#p79804

....
There's also all the time it would take to move these supposed 2,500 bodies by 'cane' as alleged by Sonderkommando Dario Gabbai over 100 feet, through the small doors up the makeshift 'elevator' into the cremation room, this alone, day after day, hour after hour would be utterly exhausting and time consuming to say the least. It's impossible with the alleged equipment supposedly employed. All of the claims by Wyatt here depend on absolute perfect conditions without factoring in the other impossibilities, even Jewish revolt.

... And this through a tiny lift that barely could load multiple corpses. The crematoria with morgues in the basement were not designed to be crematoria with gas chambers for mass-extermination in the basements. They'd be set up completely different with the killing taking place on an even or rather higher level moving the corpses downward via a chute towards cremation an ash disposal.

[Hannover]

Another point which demolishes the nonsense about Wyatt and the "Holocaust Industry" alleged gassing & cremations sequence is the fact the amount of cyanide that would have been necessary to 'gas' 2000 people batch after batch as alleged would have been immense.
And the fact that HCN is highly flammable and explosive renders it absurd / impossible to think that the Germans would have used vast amounts of HCN, over & over again just below intensely hot crematory ovens, which according to the fake storyline were right above the laughably alleged 'gas chambers'.

Example of building destroyed by HCN explosion.

more: http://vho.org/GB/Books/trr/1.html#1.2

Faked "Holocau$t Industry" mock-up:


#2 = alleged 'gas chamber packed with Jews' and allegedly filled with massive amounts of HCN / Zyklon-B.
#3 = shaft leading to above floor with 9 ft. X 4 ft. elevator allegedly capable of moving 2000 corpses to ovens in just minutes
# 4 = very hot crematory ovens next to HCN filled 'gas chamber'

more here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11143&p=83723&hilit=model+asmarques#p83723

Another case of Wyatt's willful ignorance biting the dust.

- Hannover

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the 'holocaust' storyline is the message.

[Lamprecht]

Another point which demolishes the nonsense about Wyatt and the "Holocaust Industry" alleged gassing & cremations sequence is the fact the amount of cyanide that would have been necessary to 'gas' 2000 people batch after batch as alleged would have been immense.

Wyatt went with the "You need less HCN to kill people!" nonsense. Comparing the amount needed to kill all of the lice to the amount needed to kill one person
See: viewtopic.php?p=93737#p93737

He even used bogus calculations from Nizkor when Degesch (the company which sold the Zyklon-B) did actual experiments in 1942:


Speed of vaporization of HCN from the carrier substance of Zyklon B (gypsum carrier) at various temperatures and finely dispersed, according to R. Irmscher/DEGESCH (R. Irmscher, Zeitschrift für hygienische Zoologie und Schädlingsbekämpfung, 34 (1942), p. 36, cf. W. Lambrecht http://www.vho.org/VffG/1997/1/Lambrecht1.html.

It takes over a half hour at 15°C (59°F) for half of the Zyklon-B to evaporate.

Another:

Evaporation rate of hydrocyanic acid from the substrate Erco (gypsum with starch) at 15 ° C and fine distribution, according to R. Irmscher / DEGESCH 1942. (R. Irmscher, »Nochmals: "Die Einsatzfähigkeit der Blausäure bei tiefen Temperaturen"«, Zeitschrift für hygienische Zoologie und Schädlingsbekämpfung, 1942, 34. Jg., S. 36)

This is why they had these devices in many delousing chambers to blow hot air on the Zyklon-B pellets:


So to do the gassings in the time period claimed, they would have had a large quantity of Zyklon-B pellets still outgassing. It would have not been difficult to put such a device on the side of the room, protected by a metal grating so that the prisoners couldn't break it.

I am not surprised Wyatt didn't come back. He must have suffered from immense levels of cognitive dissonance.

[Hannover]

Lamprecht said:

Wyatt went with the "You need less HCN to kill people!" nonsense. Comparing the amount needed to kill all of the lice to the amount needed to kill one person

Here's another good thread which trashes that desperate claim .

'Richard Green, Andrew Mathis refuted / cyanide: lice, humans, & more'
viewtopic.php?t=267

- Hannover

Science over hateful Zionist lies.

[Otium]

Let Nit Wyit (Wyatt) be a lesson to all wannabe Holocaust Exterminationists. You're not special, it's all been said and thrashed before. Get real and move on from this disgustingly fake atrocity story.

The basic legal principles of a state under the rule of law demand that subject experts sworn in by the state must accord greater significance to material evidence than to any eyewitness accounts. [Walter] Lüftl,* being such an expert and acting in accordance with this logical stipulation, was more than a little surprised to realize that the generally accepted qualitative hierarchy of evidence appears to be reversed where the Holocaust is concerned: historiography of the Holocaust is dominated by the eyewitness testimony which, he found, frequently does not stand up to expert criticism, but which is nevertheless accepted unquestioningly and is given precedence over the material findings of experts.

He was also surprised to find that the courts take “judicial notice” of the events of the Holocaust as described by eyewitnesses – i.e., they consider these accounts to be self-evident and proven facts – not only in order to obviate the need for their formal proof and thus to spare themselves the bother of bringing evidence for these events, but that they also make use of this “judicial notice” in order to deny the opposing side the right to bring evidence to the contrary. Lüftl considers this practice to be a violation of human rights, since judicial notice should be taken only of such matters as are also undisputed by both prosecution and defense – such as water is wet, fire is hot, and ice is cold. However, as soon as there is any justified and reasonable dispute of any point, such a point must be open to discussion - Germar Rudolf, Dissecting the Holocaust, pp. 61

Why must it be with the Holocaust that the evidence we need isn't available yet frauds like Lipstadt claims it's the most documented Genocide in human history? Why must the hierarchy of evidence be reversed in this specific case? And how can any serious historian think the matter is solved based on nothing but eyewitnesses? At the very MOST the Holocaust should take the position of an 'alleged' atrocity story. Not a historical and documented fact.

* The Luftl Report:
https://codoh.com/library/document/2383/

[Breker]

Mr, HMSEndeavour asked:

And how can any serious historian think the matter is solved based on nothing but eyewitnesses?

It must also be mentioned that these false "eyewitnesses" make claims which contradict laws of science, contradict the "Holocaust" mythology, and contradict themselves. The completely daft "eyewitnesses" and their lies say more about themselves and those that encourage them than they do about the truth.
B.
We almost forgot.
There are many more "eyewitnesses" to witchcraft.

[Stephen Cohen]

wyatt:

...Many deniers will claim that it takes AT LEAST an hour or even MORE to cremate a body to ash... what you are doing is not cremation. Its just destruction.

It sounds like poor Wyatt is relying on the "magically disappearing jew" theory as a basis for his argument. (Good luck with that Wyatt! )

Wyatt:

Deniers assume that a body will... simply go from a human sized object to a puff of ash going up the chimney.

Yep, there it is.

No Wyatt, the insane belief that cremation turns bodies into "a puff of ash" is what exterminations like you self-deceivingly believe to support their insane "magically disappearing jew" theory.

Wyatt:

Within 20 minutes most of the body is burned away.

But what is left Wyatt?

Wyatt:

Lets do some math

Yes Wyatt, lets do some math. And lets start with a simple question:

How much (in pounds) bone remains after a typical, modern day cremation?

Now x that amount with the number of jews that you pretend were cremated.

What is the total weight Wyatt?

Wyatt:

What exactly is missing?

It's called physical evidence Wyatt.

You can learn more about it here:

https://www.elementalnw.com/2014/05/26/9-things-cremation/

2. You don’t get ash back. What’s really returned to you is the person’s skeleton. Once you burn off all the water, soft tissue, organs, skin, hair, cremation container/casket, etc., what you’re left with is bone.

Poor Wyatt.

[Lamprecht]

Stephen quoted:

You don't get ash back

Basically correct. What you get is nothing like wood ash, or what you get at the end of a cigarette or after burning paper. It's basically burnt bones, and is sometimes called "bone ash" and is totally insoluble in water. More here:

Cremated remains, bone ash, and water-solubility // the ash ponds
viewtopic.php?t=12278