4 Million

[Hebden]

We said nothing about anybody having been murdered, just that 3-4 million people were apparently missing

I have no problem with this. If memory serves me correctly, J. Graf acknowlegded this as a problem, 'where are they?' To say that there must be physical evidence for everything will not satisfy the average person.
I'm not suggesting that 3-4 million were murdered or even missing, but revisionism must prove that they were not/are not. As well, yes, Germans are guilty unless they can prove their innocence, that's how it is, right or wrong.

Wilf

Mitgegangen, mitfegangen, mitgehangen.

Allow us to paraphrase:

To lose one million Jews may be considered a misfortune, to lose two million looks like carelessness, to lose four million looks like mass murder.

[TMoran]

Hebden says:
I have no problem with this. If memory serves me correctly, J. Graf acknowlegded this as a problem, 'where are they?' To say that there must be physical evidence for everything will not satisfy the average person.
I'm not suggesting that 3-4 million were murdered or even missing, but revisionism must prove that they were not/are not. As well, yes, Germans are guilty unless they can prove their innocence, that's how it is, right or wrong.

===============================================

Gee, I always thought that the accused had to be proven guilty by the accusors.

What if I say, 'Hebden, I know you killed ten people'. Now prove that you didn't.

As far as missing Jews or whatever? One of the oft said statements from the Holocaust community is - If there was no Holocaust, what happened to all the Jews?

Take the Auschwitz numbers for instance. From 4 million persons (3 million Jews) down to 1 million (almost all Jews). It's obvious if the number has been dropped from 4 million to 1 million then that other 3 million never were in the first place.

The Holocaust community can't come up with anything credible to show that there were the millions of Jews in the area in the first place.

[Moderator]

Hebden,
Our guidelines are clear:

No 'dodging', when questioned or challenged you must respond or leave the thread.

You have been challenged to support your assertion of "4,000,000". Failing to answer the challenge requires that you cease from repeating the claim in this thread/topic; a thread which was initiated by you.

Thanks for your cooperation,

Moderator

[Hebden]

Hebden says:
I have no problem with this. If memory serves me correctly, J. Graf acknowlegded this as a problem, 'where are they?' To say that there must be physical evidence for everything will not satisfy the average person.
I'm not suggesting that 3-4 million were murdered or even missing, but revisionism must prove that they were not/are not. As well, yes, Germans are guilty unless they can prove their innocence, that's how it is, right or wrong.

We didn't say this. Mr. Wilf Neugierig did.

[neugierig]

Mitgegangen, mitgefangen, mitgehangen

I don’t know what you mean by that, you lost me at the bakery.

I am acknowledging that the missing Jews, how ever many they are, present a problem to revisionism, and, until they can come up with a plausible explanation it will remain a problem. It matters little to the average, brainwashed person that this is going the wrong way around, i.e., the accused must prove he didn’t do it, this is the Holocaust, a quasi religion.

I personally have a hard time with the numbers mentioned. There was a war on, people moved, or were moved, from here to there, often no records were kept. As well, people were killed, died of diseases etc. How than can we know how many were killed intentionally. Further, one can only find missing persons if they want to be found. That’s why pre-war statistics are important and, how many survived the camps, i.e., claimed compensation. The former Soviet Union is a grey area as well, nothing reliable came from there, just look at the 4 million number in Auschwitz that was maintained ’till just a few years ago.

That’s why I can’t accept that any more than 1-2 million missing would constitute genocide. ’Till we know for certain who went where and when, this is an assumption. As for documents, the prosecution had first pick, long before the defence knew what the charges were going to be and so on. I will therefore always have the suspicion, well founded IMHO, that documents were destroyed that undermined the case for the prosecution.

Wilf

[Hebden]

Mitgegangen, mitgefangen, mitgehangen

I don’t know what you mean by that, you lost me at the bakery.

Wilf

Apparently, it's a German folk saying:

Went with, caught with, hanged with.

I am acknowledging that the missing Jews, how ever many they are, present a problem to revisionism, and, until they can come up with a plausible explanation it will remain a problem. It matters little to the average, brainwashed person that this is going the wrong way around, i.e., the accused must prove he didn’t do it, this is the Holocaust, a quasi religion.

But if Jews were under German 'protective custody' that entails a certain degree of responsibility and accountability.

Let's start with the Jews deported from France, Belgium and Holland. By the end of 1942, as detailed in the Korherr report, these numbered 97,000. 31,000 of these are known to have been registered in Auschwitz. Several thousand others were apparently employed in Upper Silesia by the Organisation Schmelt. The fate of the others is unknown.

[neugierig]

Apparently, it's a German folk saying

I'm familiar with the saying, I just don't know why you brought it up, are you suggesting I'll be hanged alongside Hannover and the rest? I hope not.

As for the Jews from France? What you seem to be implying is, that because there are no records of the whereabouts of the majority of them, they must have been killed. An assumtion at best. If you read my previous post, I don't believe we have all the documents, for reasons stated. Therefore, we need a little more than a missing persons report to make a murder charge stick.

Wilf

[Hannover]

There is no proof they are 'missing'. It is reasonable to assume they were sent to various camps (however many there were). I might add that Korherr himself has shot down the numbers in the 'Korherr Report' as false; so that's a non-starter to be sure.

As I said, after WWII Jews were literally pouring out of Europe to Palestine, the US, S. America, you name it; Jews went where Jews are.

Hebden:
On what basis do you believe they are missing? Quoting Reitlinger just won't do.
What do you think happened to the 4,000,000 that you claim are 'missing'? Please support your answer with evidence.

- Hannover

[Sailor]

I am acknowledging that the missing Jews, how ever many they are, present a problem to revisionism, and, until they can come up with a plausible explanation it will remain a problem.

I agree.

But anti-revisionists have a problem too. Take for example Treblinka with an estimated 750,000 Jews deported to this camp (300,000 from the Warsaw ghetto and surroundings, 450,000 from the Treblinka area). There is no way that the camp could hold that many people at one time, it was way too small. And they could not have been killed in that camp: they did not find the massgraves, neither the Poles who were doing excavations at the campsite in 1945/46 nor engineer Krege during recent investigations with that new “wonder-machine”, the ground-penetrating radar equipment.
And the New York police commissary told us yesterday on TV in connection with this young girl who was kidnapped, that a missing person is only declared dead after the dead body or its remnants are found.
It stands to reason that the inmates were not killed in that camp, neither with steam nor with diesel-exhaust fumes. The people were transferred to anothe location.

[Hebden]

There is no proof they are 'missing'. It is reasonable to assume they were sent to various camps (however many there were).

But what kinds of camps? And in which geographical areas should we be looking? We would appreciate the benefit of your studies on
this subject.

Hebden:
On what basis do you believe they are missing? Quoting Reitlinger just won't do.
What do you think happened to the 4,000,000 that you claim are 'missing'? Please support your answer with evidence.
- Hannover

If we knew what happened to them, they wouldn't be missing. You seem to have a problem with that concept.

[Hebden]

I am acknowledging that the missing Jews, how ever many they are, present a problem to revisionism, and, until they can come up with a plausible explanation it will remain a problem.

I agree.

But anti-revisionists have a problem too. Take for example Treblinka with an estimated 750,000 Jews deported to this camp (300,000 from the Warsaw ghetto and surroundings, 450,000 from the Treblinka area). There is no way that the camp could hold that many people at one time, it was way too small. And they could not have been killed in that camp: they did not find the massgraves, neither the Poles who were doing excavations at the campsite in 1945/46 nor engineer Krege during recent investigations with that new “wonder-machine”, the ground-penetrating radar equipment.

And do you know when a full-scale report of the investigations of Mr. Krege will be published? Does the Graf/Mattogno book discuss them?

And the New York police commissary told us yesterday on TV in connection with this young girl who was kidnapped, that a missing person is only declared dead after the dead body or its remnants are found.

That may be standard police practice, bu as Mr. John Haigh, the infamous acid bath murderer found out to his cost, the legal doctrine of corpus delicti does not always apply:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_kill ... ess_2.html

[Sailor]

And do you know when a full-scale report of the investigations of Mr. Krege will be published? Does the Graf/Mattogno book discuss them?

It is mentioned briefly in the Graf/Mattogno book. They made a thorough investigation in Auschwitz at the location of known mass grave sites for comparison reasons, and at the camps Belzec and Treblinka. At Sobibor they had problems with the local guard and were chased away.
A full report about the ground-penetrating radar research is being prepared in a book which will be published soon.

That may be standard police practice, bu as Mr. John Haigh, the infamous acid bath murderer found out to his cost, the legal doctrine of corpus delicti does not always apply:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_kill ... ess_2.html

You got a point there.

[neugierig]

But anti-revisionists have a problem too. Take for example Treblinka with an estimated 750 000 Jews deported to this camp...

Absolutely, that’s why I said a missing persons report is insufficient for a murder charge.

Still, the ’where are they then?’ comes up all the time, especially regarding the Rheinhard (sp?) camps. One possibility. The victors gathered the evidence under the auspices of chief prosecutor Justice Jackson. (Jackson report to the President June 6.1945) The Anglo-American procedure allows the prosecution to gather incriminating evidence only and to disregard exonerating material. (vice versa for the defence). The aim of the Nürnberg charade was to convict the Germans, it never had anything to do with justice.
Therefore, since no impartial party was present when the evidence was collected, sorted out, it is reasonable to assume that exonerating material was either disregarded or destroyed. Now, we have most of the transportation records of prisoners being taken to the Rheinhard camps and none showing anyone leaving. Why would the Germans, after, allegedly, destroying physical evidence of killing apparatuses leave those incriminating documents to be found. No time doesn’t wash, one could hear the sound of war days ahead of the front arriving. Unless those documents were not incriminating at all because documents showing prisoners transferred to other camps were present as well. As Sailor pointed out, to murder them all in these rather primitive camps is impossible, unless of course the highly toxic diesel exhaust was used. Can I prove documents were omitted? No, but just because a lot of Jews are allegedly missing is no prove for any wrongdoing either.

Wilf

[Scott]

Why would the Germans, after, allegedly, destroying physical evidence of killing apparatuses leave those incriminating documents to be found. No time doesn’t wash, one could hear the sound of war days ahead of the front arriving.

Well, Roberto's answer was that the Nazis never admitted that they might lose the war so they didn't think about it while they had the chance.

[Hebden]

Therefore, since no impartial party was present when the evidence was collected, sorted out, it is reasonable to assume that exonerating material was either disregarded or destroyed. Now, we have most of the transportation records of prisoners being taken to the Rheinhard camps and none showing anyone leaving.

We do?

Why would the Germans, after, allegedly, destroying physical evidence of killing apparatuses leave those incriminating documents to be found. No time doesn’t wash, one could hear the sound of war days ahead of the front arriving. Unless those documents were not incriminating at all because documents showing prisoners transferred to other camps were present as well. Wilf

There is a 1943 report from Mr. Globocnik to Reichsfuhrer Himmler in which he writes: "There is one additional factor to be added to the total accounting of [Operation] Reinhard, which is, that the documents dealing with it must be destroyed as soon as possible, after all the other basic works concerning this matter have already been destroyed."

The resettlement of more than one and a half million people in the space of a year and a half should, however, leave traces which would escape attempts at eradication, whether by the Germans or the Allies.