"Holocaust Denial" / stories heard / 'Are you Nazis?'

[HermannNollen]

Hello,

I found this forum by chance, and my curiosity just drove me to read some of the topics and oh boy what a threat, I'm not going to argue or call names cause there's no point. People can belive on what they want that's the bottom line.
You might choose to believe my worda or ignore it I don't think it will make any difference. First of all I'm German, my father grew up with that burden of the holocaust and the war, and it was sort of a tabu to talk about it in the house. And I can say that every German children from my age had at least some curiosity that was not satisfied nor everyone wrote books about it. My grandfather served in the war I knew that much, I never found anything related to the war in my grandparents house, not even a book about the war.
Many years later I even had forgot about that, my grandmother died and the was the love of my grandfather life and his companion, he was already a very old man so he became very depressed and so I stated visiting him more and more, and we had long conversations about football, politics, and life in general. One day he started talking about the war and how he was ashamed of certain things, at first he didn't want to talk, he was afraid I would consider him a bad man, and I said I would never consider that, he was a generous man, a family man who provided for everyone with kindness.
Then he let it all out, he started by saying he was in the SS and after the war my grandmother asked him to burn all of his things because she was afraid they were going to take him away and by the chance of fate they were able to move to Switzerland. He was never caught, put up on trial, and the only ones that knew were my grandmother and her mother. I thought ok that's not bad, not every SS man did actually did bad things, turns ou he did.
He confessed to me he was a concentration camp guard from mid 1943 until the end of the war because he got injured, he worked on two different camps and one of then was a death camp. He did not go into specific details, but he said most of the things people say are true, and they did execute a lot of people, specially Jews, he he was ashamed because he actually felt good about it in a strange way that what they were doing had to done, he felt empowered by duty the camp was much better then serving in the front. He cried about how things unraveled and about the guilt that later came on. I felt sad, I didn't know what to say so I asked him if he personally killed someone, and he asked me back if I really wanted to know all and I said no, I was overwhelmed with the talk and that answer told me everything.

He also talked about the war and fighting all over France, Poland and Russia, showed me his tattoo with the blood type which was practically an ink blur and he also told me one of his best friends served in the Einsatzgruppen and at first he was good but then started to drink a lot because he couldn't deal with the executions, he got transferred but he was a heavy drinker by then, one day he got so drunk he fell of a balcony and broke his neck. After this long conversation we didn't talk about it never again but I could tell he was relieved, he never talked about it with any of his children and I only told this to my older brother and we decided not to tell my sisters nor my parents. I never judged my grandfather or think bad of him because of that, I couldn't, I bury it down my thoughts and like I've said it's a coincidence I found this forum and I decided to talk about it.

Call it food for thought, because if my grandfather didn't deny the events that changed so many lives and brought so much pain to all, I think is bad taste that you all deny it like it was some big conspiracy, without any factual evidence our without ever talked to someone who was really involved. Its easy to hide behind a knickname and an avatar, and come up with this big allegations based on "studies" from people that want to believe these things didn't happen.
Well I believed my grandfather and in the things he told me more that any book or any website. I just don't know what drives you people, wanting it so bad to be a lie and Propaganda, Are you Nazis? Ironically I don't even think most of you are German.

Funny how people like this big conspiracy theories and some of then even believe that the earth is flat. Well like I said in the beginning people are free to believe in whatever they want, if you want to believe my story believe it if not I won't be bothered with it, probably you'll even going to delete it since it goes against what you strongly believe in, either case this is my first and last post. I wish you all the best.
Hermann

[Wachtman]

My father was in the German Army during World War II. Once a long time ago, when my oldest brother asked him if so many jews were murdered by the Germans during the war, he answered no.

[Lamprecht]

The reality of executions in the camps and on the eastern front is not questioned. Did he claim to have witnessed homicidal gas chambers? If so, at what camp?

[Kretschmer]

The field of Holocaust revisionism includes people from a wide variety of ideological convictions on the right and occasionally even the [nominally] anti-Zionist sects of the left. In other words, some of us are National Socialists, while others simply are not.

[Hannover]

Hermann, you are a classic.

points:

- You're engaging in silly projection. It is you who believes in the absurd 'holocaust' conspiracy theory which says that 'the Germans tried to kill every Jew they could get their hands on' ... while there are countless so called "survivors", and that millions were killed in alleged gas chambers which were scientifically impossible as alleged. Science over indoctrination, Hermann.

- I also see that you have no explanation as to why human remains of the alleged '6M Jews, 5M others' do not exist ... while it is claimed by "holocaust historians" that such immense remains exist in allegedly known locations.

- Why wasn't your alleged SS grandfather arrested and tried if he supposedly was involved in the alleged atrocities? Others certainly were.

- I assume you're aware of the fact that massive propaganda programs were unleashed on German society, complete with fake displays, films, books and laws which make free speech about the topic illegal. Your elderly grandfather was no doubt highly influenced.
Assuming you are being truthful about what he said, there are ample examples of people saying things which are not factual, especially by elderly and ill man like your grandfather, may he rest in peace. And do recall claims of witchcraft & sorcery, all backed by "eyewitnesses", court documents, governments worldwide.

- Yes the Einsatgruppen, like the Allies, executed illegal terrorists. International law allowed that. You have presented no proof to the contrary while Revisionists have provided plenty of facts about the Einsatzgruppen which refute the lies, much of it right here at this forum. I note that you have not attempted to refute that work.

- Speaking of "bad taste", Revisionists find the impossible 'holocaust' narrative to be hateful and in very bad taste.

- And basically, you simply have no proof for what you religiously believe in, what you have been indoctrinated to accept.

As for your childish and tired old "Are you Nazis", it's quite simple: There were the ‘Nazis’ with the impossible '6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers' and there were the ‘Nazis’ without the impossible ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’.

- On your way out you said: "this is my first and last post".
Indeed, you are dodging what you cannot refute, You realize that you have no chance in a level playing field debate.

The fake & impossible 'holocaust' narrative is a religion and to those like you, so called "holocaust denial" is blasphemy.

- Hannover

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the 'holocaust' storyline is the message.

[Sannhet]

The field of Holocaust revisionism includes people from a wide variety of ideological convictions on the right and occasionally even the [nominally] anti-Zionist sects of the left.

The most common "political personality type" among actual (informed) H Revisionists is some color of the free-thinker or libertarian mindset. Often they are basically non-political. The important thing is that the person be willing to ask questions and investigate. To question orthodoxies and especially hegemonic ideologies (as the Holocaust has been for us in recent decades) is hard. Strong ideologues of any kind usually won't have space for it in their basket of concerns.

Bradley Smith, CODOH founder (1930-2016) was the quintessential such person. I think the same personality-drive was behind Dr. Robert Faurisson's tireless efforts. This is even true of Germar Rudolf (b.1964), who has said that as a young man he came out of the German-conservative mainstream and was anti-Nazi in his youth, but that when the dissident-conservative Republikaner party began to show signs of breakthrough in the late 1980s, he became interested. A more conventional mind would have stayed with the CDU of the day. Rudolf paid the price for an angry determination to settle the gas chamber question on a chemical basis; a more conventional person would have stayed away.

[Sannhet]

My grandfather served in the war I knew that much, I never found anything related to the war in my grandparents house, not even a book about the war.

He confessed to me he was a concentration camp guard from mid 1943 until the end of the war because he got injured, he worked on two different camps and one of then was a death camp. He did not go into specific details, but he said most of the things people say are true, and they did execute a lot of people, specially Jews, he he was ashamed because he actually felt good about it in a strange way that what they were doing had to done, he felt empowered by duty the camp was much better then serving in the front. He cried about how things unraveled and about the guilt that later came on.

"A relative was there and said it was all true, he saw it!" -- Some version of this is among the most common things one hears when listening to someone justify Holocaust belief. For someone of H.Nollen's (implied) age, this belief is not a choice but basically mandatory. Germans and really all Westerners are brought into Holocaust belief from a young age in the same way one is brought into a religion while growing up.

People find especially this "a relative was there and saw it!" particularly reassuring and we see basically the same kinds of anecdotes appearing also in the USA, a grandfather or uncle or great-uncle who "liberated the camps," something like that. Not asked are the most basic questions. "He saw it." What, exactly, is 'it'? What did he see? When? Was it really he who saw it or was is second-hand? Was 'it' really seen, or was it heard or read about? "He was there." Where? Why do so many others who were also 'there' at concentration camps deny there were mass gassings/exterminations? These very basic questions are just waved away as if they don't matter in any way. Anyone asking them is assumed to have some kind of crazy or evil motivation, and H.Nollen is falling victim to this danger. Basic critical thinking is shut down. It's a remarkable process to observe when viewed from the outside.

After reading Hermann Nollen's post, I think Herr Nollen is of the type who is open to Revisionist inquiry, though he may not admit it to himself and maybe in fact he never will allow himself to go down the road of inquiry, the social penalties being too strong; it depends on his personality in some ways, social and even legal penalties are a deterrent, and not many are willing to go into "samizdat" mode, dealing with illegal literature. I also see that he has not and will not read studies and books on the matter, a bold thing to declare at the outset ("I refuse to investigate further.") But despite all that, the spark is there: Nollen asked questions. It's the first step.

Historical inquiry, at its core, is about asking questions and seeking answers. 'Perfect' answers (whatever that means) are impossible, but history is done anyway. History is also often reinterpreted when new evidence or new frames of analysis become available. That's why great figures of the past get new biographies every few decades. Say, Bismarck. Why not just write one biography on Bismarck and then everyone agrees never to write another? One is enough, right? Why do we need new ones at a rate of around one a decade? Unless they are all writing the exact same thing and plagiarizing each other, these new authors are all reinterpreting this man and his "life and times" (as we say). They are asking fresh questions with fresh eyes. They are revisionists.

[Otium]

Call it food for thought, because if my grandfather didn't deny the events that changed so many lives and brought so much pain to all, I think is bad taste that you all deny it like it was some big conspiracy, without any factual evidence our without ever talked to someone who was really involved.

If you read the forum more extensively you'll understand that nobody here who is serious believes there was a "conspiracy". Yet, who are you to talk about conspiracies? Who are the Allies to talk about conspiracies? When it was the Allies and those who promulgate the Allied view of history who believed there was a planned "Nazi conspiracy for aggression" dating back to 1920! Now that's a conspiracy theory that was actually alleged to have been true. Which of course, it isn't. The allegation of "conspiracy theory" is only has good as the credentials of those who espouse it. If they're admirers of Winston Churchill they'd be lauded as truth seekers, if they're admirers of Adolf Hitler they'd dragged through the mud as "nut jobs" and "cranks". Talking about conspiracies is pointless.

There was no conspiracy, just a promotion of Allied, particularly Soviet wartime propaganda that was allowed to self perpetuate and refine itself after the war by those mainly Jewish activists who had an interest in ensuring the public believed in some elaborate "Nazi" plan to exterminate the Jews. The Holocaust was only ever allowed to grow in the minds of the public because it was promoted by institutions who never did their due diligence to check to see if the claims that were made were even true. Nor did they test their hypothesis by employing scientifically rigorous methods. It was just taken to be true and never questioned.

If you want to know who truly believes in a conspiracy theory I think you would find my thread on Richard Evans enlightening:

Richard Evans admits the Holocaust is a Conspiracy Theory
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13648

According to their own criteria, the people who believe in the Holocaust, like Richard J. Evans, must consider the Holocaust to be a Conspiracy Theory.

Talking with people "involved" doesn't prove anything. There is plenty of factual evidence that disproves the Holocaust. See:

Holocaust Handbücher & Dokumentarfilme Präsentiert von Castle Hill Publishers und CODOH http://holocausthandbuecher.com/index.php?main_page=1&sort=voa&s=0&st=39#entries

Its easy to hide behind a knickname and an avatar, and come up with this big allegations based on "studies" from people that want to believe these things didn't happen.

Of course it's easy to hide behind an avatar. Aren't you doing the same thing? The problem is that debate over the Holocaust is illegal in many countries, you can be sent to prison. Even in countries where it's not illegal, it may as well be, the coercion faced by those who would question it is immeasurable. You would suffer serious social and political repercussions.

Have you read any of these "studies", because you just said we have "no evidence" which isn't true. Perhaps you ought to read some revisionist material before forming an opinion? You should also ask yourself - why do you want to believe these things happened? It's by no means a foregone conclusion in favour of the Holocaust narrative.

Well I believed my grandfather and in the things he told me more that any book or any website. I just don't know what drives you people, wanting it so bad to be a lie and Propaganda, Are you Nazis? Ironically I don't even think most of you are German.

I'm sorry to say, but from what you've told us, your grandfathers story isn't particularly remarkable. Nothing in there is proof of the Holocaust. Executions certainly aren't proof, you can execute people for a number of legitimate reasons. The Job of the Einsatzgruppen for example, was to execute partisans, many of whom were Jewish - that however, isn't proof of the Holocaust. Did your grandfather see any gas chambers? Or did he just experience the day to day horrors of war, malnutrition, and death that purveyed the camps? You have to be very careful when you choose to believe that the Holocaust occurred based on witness stories that actually don't contain any details that conflict with revisionists. The Holocaust as it's told to us has very specific alleged "proofs", the gas chambers, gas vans, outdoor cremation pyres, and massive mass graves etc. Anything else, like the executions you wrote about, aren't proof, even though they're tacked onto the Holocaust narrative to make it seem more plausible so people like you will be more willing to accept it happened as alleged. When in truth, there's no proof whatsoever.

To everyone who has ever suspected that revisionists are motivated by a desire to whitewash National Socialism, or restore the acceptability of right-wing political systems, or assist in a breakthrough of Nationalism, I would like to say the following:

While researching historical events, our highest goal must be at all times to discover how it actually was--as the 19th century German historian Leopold Ranke maintained. Historians should not place research in the service of making criminal accusations against, for example, Genghis Khan and the Mongol hordes, nor to whitewash any of their wrong-doings. Anybody insisting that research be barred from exonerating Genghis Khan of criminal accusations would be the object of ridicule and would be subject to the suspicion that he was, in fact, acting out of political motives. If this were not so, why would anyone insist that our historical view of Genghis Khan forever be defined solely by Khan's victims and enemies?

The same reasoning applies to Hitler and the Third Reich. Both revisionists and their adversaries are entitled to their political views. The accusation that revisionists are only interested in exonerating National Socialism and that such an effort is reprehensible or even criminal is a boomerang: This accusation has as a prerequisite that it is deemed unacceptable to partially exonerate National Socialism historically, and by so doing, always also morally. But by declaring any hypothetical exoneration based on possible facts as unacceptable, one admits openly not to be interested in the quest for the truth, but in incriminating National Socialism historically and morally under any circumstances and at all costs. And the motivation behind this can only be political. Hence, those accusing revisionists to misuse their research for political ends have themselves been proven guilty of exactly this offense. It is therefore not necessarily the revisionists who are guided by political motives--though quite a few of them certainly are--but with absolute certainty all those who accuse others of attempting to somehow historically exonerate a political system which has long since disappeared.

As a consequence, our research must never be concerned with the possible 'moral' spin-off effects of our findings in relation to politicians or regimes of the past, but solely with the facts. Anyone who argues the opposite does not understand scientific research and should not presume to condemn others on the basis of authentic research.

Germar Rudolf, The Rudolf Report: Expert Report on Chemical & Technical Aspects of the 'Gas Chambers' of Auschwitz (The Barnes Review, 2nd Revised and Expanded Edition, 2011), Pp. 36-37. See: https://archive.org/details/Germar-rudolf-the-rudolf-report-expert-report-on-chemical-technical-aspects-of-t/mode/2up

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm open about the fact that I'm a National Socialist. Yet this doesn't mean all revisionists are, I'd wager most certainly are not, but are actually authentic Libertarians who just want to peruse the truth. It's hard to understand perhaps, because the Liberalism so prevalent today is more so Marxism hidden behind a veil, and not in anyway aligned with the professed Liberalism one would expect. For example, the idea of freedom of speech and thought is totally annulled.

Funny how people like this big conspiracy theories and some of then even believe that the earth is flat. Well like I said in the beginning people are free to believe in whatever they want, if you want to believe my story believe it if not I won't be bothered with it, probably you'll even going to delete it since it goes against what you strongly believe in, either case this is my first and last post. I wish you all the best.
Hermann

Nobody here believes the earth is flat. Holocaust revisionism isn't even in the same league as something as ridiculous as that.

Unfortunately we're not free to believe whatever we want, if that were the case the Holocaust would've been taken to be a lie decades ago. But instead revisionists are persecuted and sent to prison or fired from their jobs.

It's odd that you'd accuse us of wanting to remove your post because it "goes against" what we "strongly believe", yet it is us revisionists who aren't allowed to publish books, posts on social media, or discuss publicly pretty much anywhere the facts that dispute the Holocaust because it goes against what Jews, Leftists, and the Globalist establishment believe and want the rest of us to be forced to believe. Revisionists have their books burned and censored all the while our enemies supposedly talk about how much they love "freedom". If you're going to criticize anyone Hermann, it should be those who believe in the Holocaust for censoring us. Otherwise you have no good reason to criticize us for the things you won't even criticize the people you agree with for actually doing.

In any case, what would lead you to believe that your post would be removed? Some of the most active threads on here are debates between two members of this forum who we've been arguing with about the Holocaust for more than a year now (Gl0spana and NFrNJ). Their posts are only removed if they're insulting or off-topic, which they are at times. But at CODOH we encourage debate because it shows others how ridiculous the Holocaust actually is. It serves as a record and a challenge to those who would attempt to negate revisionism.

[Vukdar]

https://youtu.be/TLYAZJfhFFE

I found this grandpa who denies it, and openly so...

I think this is not the way to get full picture of what happened. Sure, testimonies have their value but are to be taken with "grain of salt".

Anyways, there are english subtitles only at the beginning of this video so I only understood that. I unfortunately can't understand german and have no clue about what they were saying in the rest of it. If there is anybody here speaking german I would like to hear brief summary. Thanks...

[Sannhet]

https://youtu.be/TLYAZJfhFFE

I found this grandpa who denies it, and openly so...

I think this is not the way to get full picture of what happened. Sure, testimonies have their value but are to be taken with "grain of salt".

Anyways, there are english subtitles only at the beginning of this video so I only understood that. I unfortunately can't understand german and have no clue about what they were saying in the rest of it. If there is anybody here speaking german I would like to hear brief summary. Thanks...

The man's name was Karl Muenter (1923-2019). There is a CODOH-Forum thread about the case. Former SS Soldier Karl Munter Faces Trial in Germany for "Holocaust Denial" viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12616.

Here is more of what he said in the (highly edited) interview:

• Muenter says he had been a regular soldier in the SS. In a personal interview with FUNK, Muenter says the SS had done nothing wrong. They ask directly: "So the SS committed no crimes?" Muenter said: "No, not in the war. I didn't know of any (crimes)." One of the FUNK men then cuts away to pictures of Hitler and SS flags and they mock Muenter: "No crimes? The purpose of the SS was extermination! Race war. They committed serious war-crimes. It is clearly proven."

• They say his unit was involved in killing 86 people in a village in France on the night of April 1-2, 1944. They don't talk much about what this was, but even FUNK says it involved some members of an underground Resistance. Muenter says he fired no shots during this disturbance. But he was there. They asked him more about it and he defends the right of the occupying army to detain partisans and says if they make an escape attempt or uprising and get shot, that's the way it is, it's a war. (FUNK edits this in a way to make it seem like he is glad they were killed.)

• FUNK says France condemned Muenter to death in absentia after the war but then everything cooled down and he lived a normal life working for the local post office back home and never served in prison for any crime.

• Later they get Muenter on film explicitly denying the Six Million. They try to say he is only "denying the Holocaust" because he wants to look 'cool' to young Neo-Nazis. Later the FUNK team also talks to local people in his town and they don't want to condemn him, "Why are they still talking about this after 75 years? It's ridiculous." Then FUNK spends a few minutes on why it's not ridiculous and hy they should keep trying to hunt down Nazis for war-crimes. They go back to scenes of the village in France where the 89 people were said to have been killed. They end with asking Muenter: "Do you regret it all?" He says: "No. Why should I regret anything?" They make it seem like he is talking about the incident in France but the question is general, like "Do you regret your entire life before age 23?" He says no; what a question! (end).

• The team that made this little mini-documentary is from the German media group called FUNK and it looks like the goal is try to make these far-right groups look as bad as possible, to make them look like either supporters of mass murder or somehow criminal, or suspicious. (They don't mention the AfD specifically, but the strength of the AfD in the mid-late 2010s is a political context of the time this was made. The AfD was doing especially well in all the eastern states and doing okay in the western states, the most successful party to the right of the CDU in the entire history of the Federal Republic of Germany (1949-). The FUNK people specify Thuringia, a region of Germany where Muenter was invited to speak to a private group. In Thuringia, there is a man who has signaled that he disbelieves in the Holocaust, Bjoern Hoecke, and leads the AfD in that state. In 2019 the AfD took around one-in-four seats in the state parliament [Landtag] and their big win created a political crisis in the CDU; the long story short is the Federal Republic as a 'regime' was very worried about Thuringia in 2019. I see this Muenter interview in that context, that is what they were thinking when they made it.)

This was another case of the German state digging deep to find another elderly man to put on trial after the "Accountant of Auschwitz" trial opened the door to just charge anyone and put them on trial. Any German associated with the SS still living can be used for political show trials. There were a few dozen such cases since 2015. Why are they doing this? It shows how important the Holocaust is to the German state.

[borjastick]

On the subject of the Einsatzgruppen I watched the first episode of a documentary of the same name on Netflix the other night. Not sure when it was made but I expected quite a lot from it and was sorely disappointed. The claim, as per usual, was made that they were mobile killing/execution units which were employed solely to root out and kill as many jews as possible. One 'witness' who claimed to have seen the shootings in his locale said that two tree trunks were placed over a trench and the jews were made to walk across. At the centre point they were shot and fell in.

They also showed a mass grave in which they found and filmed bodies, all of whom had been shot after having had their hands tied behind their back. Isn't that a NKVD tactic? They also interviewed an ex SS soldier who was present at some shootings. He actually didn't say much that was incriminating or terrible. BUT they filmed it in a grainy way and via a caption said the filming was secret... Problem was the camera kept moving around which clearly suggests it was not a hidden camera.

But most telling was that in almost every description of what went on they said 'jews and partisans'. Seems to me most jews who got caught up in this were partisans and shooting them was perfectly normal and legal at the time.

So I was left with no hard evidence, plenty of outrageously silly claims, Ponary forest being one, and lots of loose 'facts' about the mass murder by the Einsatzgruppen.

Maybe this OP is based along those lines because it certainly doesn't offer anything concrete.

[Mortimer]

Hermann Nollen - Finger pointing and accusing all revisionists of being "nazis" is a cop out. There are actually Allied war veterans who were holocaust revisionists. Such as Australian soldier Alexander McClelland -
viewtopic.php?t=4480
and Doug Collins who before his death in 2001 was a well known journalist in Canada. He served in the British army during world war 2.
https://codoh.com/library/authors/collins-douglas/

[ServantOfAhuraMazda]

Did your grandfather claim to witness gassings? I doubt so. Most likely scenario is that he saw some things (execution of criminal inmates) that after the war seemed to him to be connected to the whole holocaust story.

To quote Thies Christophersen, an SS man who served at Auschwitz:

Quite honestly, I began to have doubts myself. When one continually hears the same stories from all sides, it is only reasonable that finally one begins to believe them.

- Auschwitz: A Personal Account