New research uncovers strong evidence that Jews were murdered BEFORE they reached Treblinka

[Lamprecht]

According to revisionists, Jews died by the thousands, if not tens of thousands

During WWII? Yes, both Jews and non-Jews died in WWII.

If you want to pretend that what revisionists claim happened to the Jews in this situation was not second degree murder, which includes:

"Depraved-heart murder", in which the killer has no specific intent to inflict harm but knowingly commits acts with a high probability of causing death or serious harm, demonstrating a malignant indifference to human life, is typically second-degree murder."

Or third degree murder:

"Whoever, without intent to effect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life, is guilty of murder in the third degree."

Then so be it.

I believe that you are quoting US law, which applies to actions performed in the United States. It does not apply to soldiers on another continent, in another century, that are not under US jurisdiction.
If you are accusing individuals of murder and want me to agree with you on this classification, first you must:
- List the name(s) of the accused
- Cite the exact statute that was violated at this time/place
- List the name(s) of the alleged victim associated with the accused

Where did they go?

Not sure. They were not equipped with a tracking device and GPS didn't exist at the time

Do you also claim that those Nazis who, according to revisionists, killed Jews in the "euthanasia program" at Treblinka, were only guilty of "at best involuntary manslaughter"?

That is not the correct way to phrase the term if you are going to use definitions of crimes based on US statutes. You should instead ask:

"Would the actions taken by [specific individual] in [specific part of Europe] on [specific date during WWII] be tantamount to [specific crime] as defined in [US criminal code citation] if that exact action was undertaken by someone in the USA in the year 2023?"

A very silly question indeed.

How well did the defense of "it was lawful" to kill Jews work for the Nazis at Nuremberg?

What a silly question. Would you also say that magic is real because there have been trials against witches?

To determine if the euthanasia program at Treblinka was lawful or not, whether it was murder or not, please explain how the Nazis killed Jews at Treblinka. It is the revisionist claim after all.

That would actually not be relevant. To determine whether it was lawful or murder, you must first cite the legal definition of "murder" that applied in that particular time/place.
It is inappropriate to cite modern US law when we are speaking of events from the 1940s during WWII in Europe.

[Lamprecht]

If the Jews who were offloaded to camps along the Treblinka route were not "involuntary manslaughtered" at those camps, then where did they go?

If they didn't die, they could have used their feet to travel all over the place, especially after the war ended.

[Zolton]

According to revisionists, Jews died by the thousands, if not tens of thousands

Lamprecht

During WWII? Yes, both Jews and non-Jews died in WWII.

Lamprecht, do you deny that my exact quote was:

"According to revisionists, Jews died by the thousands, if not tens of thousands, while being transported east towards Treblinka due to inhumane conditions in the trains, and by the hundreds, if not thousands, in a "euthanasia" program while in the Treblinka camp itself. "

?

If you want to pretend that what revisionists claim happened to the Jews in this situation was not second degree murder, which includes:

"Depraved-heart murder", in which the killer has no specific intent to inflict harm but knowingly commits acts with a high probability of causing death or serious harm, demonstrating a malignant indifference to human life, is typically second-degree murder."

Or third degree murder:

"Whoever, without intent to effect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life, is guilty of murder in the third degree."

Then so be it.

Lamprecht:

I believe that you are quoting US law, which applies to actions performed in the United States. It does not apply to soldiers on another continent, in another century, that are not under US jurisdiction.
If you are accusing individuals of murder and want me to agree with you on this classification, first you must:
- List the name(s) of the accused
- Cite the exact statute that was violated at this time/place
- List the name(s) of the alleged victim associated with the accused

Lamprecht, do you deny that Nazis were charged, tried and convicted of murder after the war ended?

Zolton:

Where did they go?

Lamprecht:

Not sure.

Lamprecht, do you deny that revisionists claim Jews disembarked from eastbound trains to various camps en route to Treblinka?

Zolton:

Do you also claim that those Nazis who, according to revisionists, killed Jews in the "euthanasia program" at Treblinka, were only guilty of "at best involuntary manslaughter"?

Lamprecht:

That is not the correct way to phrase the term...

Lamprecht, do you deny that revisionists claim the Nazis killed Jews in a "euthanasia program" in the Treblinka II camp?

Zolton:

How well did the defense of "it was lawful" to kill Jews work for the Nazis at Nuremberg?

Lamprecht:

What a silly question...

Lamprecht, do you deny that Nazis were charged, tried and convicted of murder after the war ended?

Zolton:

To determine if the euthanasia program at Treblinka was lawful or not, whether it was murder or not, please explain how the Nazis killed Jews at Treblinka. It is the revisionist claim after all.

Lamprecht:

That would actually not be relevant...

Lamprecht, do you deny that revisionists claim Jews were "euthanized" in the Treblinka II camp?

[Zolton]

Otium:

Zolton, "suffocation, dehydration, crushing caused by panicking deportees" is not murder, nor is it proof of a plan to "exterminate" the Jews.

Otium, do you deny that Nazis were charged, tried and convicted of murder after the war ended?

Zolton:

If the Jews who were offloaded to camps along the Treblinka route were not "involuntary manslaughtered" at those camps, then where did they go?

Lamprecht:

If they didn't die, they could have used their feet to travel all over the place, especially after the war ended.

"If they didn't die"? Are you claiming the Nazis just let the Jews go if their "labor assignment" didn't kill them?

What about the Jews who died of "suffocation, dehydration, crushing caused by panicking deportees"? Did they use their feet to travel all over the place, especially after the war ended"? Or were they off loaded at the various stops along the eastward route?

[Otium]

If the eastward bound Jews were not murdered at the camps that revisionists claim they were dropped off at on the way to Treblinka, then where did they go? Are revisionists now claiming the Nazie just let them go free after doing some labor at the camp?

[...]

If the Jews who were offloaded to camps along the Treblinka route were not "involuntary manslaughtered" at those camps, then where did they go?

I don't know where they went. I don't know where they are. Nobody knows. Do you?

[borjastick]

This is what happens when you accept the premise of the question...

[Lamprecht]

Lamprecht, do you deny that my exact quote was:

"According to revisionists, Jews died by the thousands, if not tens of thousands, while being transported east towards Treblinka due to inhumane conditions in the trains, and by the hundreds, if not thousands, in a "euthanasia" program while in the Treblinka camp itself. "

Seems to be

If you want to pretend that what revisionists claim happened to the Jews in this situation was not second degree murder, which includes:

"Depraved-heart murder", in which the killer has no specific intent to inflict harm but knowingly commits acts with a high probability of causing death or serious harm, demonstrating a malignant indifference to human life, is typically second-degree murder."

Or third degree murder:

"Whoever, without intent to effect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life, is guilty of murder in the third degree."

Then so be it.

You are citing modern US law which is not relevant here. You have to cite the laws that were in place in these territories, but you will likely find that they were following orders from higher up.

Lamprecht, do you deny that Nazis were charged, tried and convicted of murder after the war ended?

Not sure, can you list the names of those that were allegedly convicted of "murder" in regards to putting Jews on trains headed to Treblinka

Lamprecht, do you deny that revisionists claim Jews disembarked from eastbound trains to various camps en route to Treblinka?

Nope

Lamprecht, do you deny that revisionists claim the Nazis killed Jews in a "euthanasia program" in the Treblinka II camp?

Nope

"If they didn't die"? Are you claiming the Nazis just let the Jews go if their "labor assignment" didn't kill them?

When retreating? Yeah. Eventually they lost control, and the entire German government was dissolved

What about the Jews who died of "suffocation, dehydration, crushing caused by panicking deportees"? Did they use their feet to travel all over the place, especially after the war ended"?

Obviously not

Or were they off loaded at the various stops along the eastward route?

That's possible I guess; or they were kept on the train until these camps at the border regions.

[Lamprecht]

Zolton:

1- Do you believe that bacteria, viruses, and other microbial pathogens can cause deadly disease?

Y / N

2- Do you agree with the claim "Millions died of disease in WW1"

Y / N

3- Do you agree with the following study's conclusion regarding:
"America's principal wars (1775-present) fall into two clearly defined time periods: the Disease Era (1775-1918), during which infectious diseases were the major killer of America's armed forces, and the Trauma Era (1941-present)" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18192771/

Y / N

3- Do you concur with this research that many of the deaths attributed to "Spanish Flu Epidemic" (1918-20) were in fact of individuals infected with deadly bacteria?
Please review:
Bacterial infection found in corpses from 1918 "Spanish flu epidemic":
1- https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1111179108
2- https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMc0908216
3- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2599911/

Y / N

4- Do you agree that antibiotics were extremely rare during WWII, especially in the German areas of control? (Suggested reading: https://archive.is/aEJ0m#selection-1979.125-1979.289)

Y / N

5- Do you believe in the concept of an "immune system" that humans have in order to fight off infections (bacteria, viruses, parasites, etc)?

Y / N

6- If Y: Do you believe that the human immune system, especially in the absence of medication, is often inadequate and can/has lead to death from infectious pathogens (bacteria, viruses, etc)?

Y / N

7- Do you agree with the research that shows that chronic psychological stress can result in greatly diminished immune system function?
1- https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8434895/
2- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1361287/

Y / N

8- Do you accept that the immune system of humans often deteriorates in ability as we age, resulting in advanced age being a risk factor for various infectious diseases?

Y / N

9- Do you believe that the German military had telepathic control over the behavior of viruses, bacteria, parasites, and/or other common pathogens?

Y / N

10- Do you acknowledge that Britain and France declared war on Germany in response to a Sept. 1939 territorial dispute between Germany and Poland?

Y / N

11- Do you acknowledge that the Soviet Union also invaded Poland in Sept. 1939, but Britain and France did not declare war on the USSR?

Y / N

12- Do you acknowledge that Hitler offered various peace proposals to Britain?

Y / N

13- Do you consider placing a terminally ill individual (infected with a highly transmissible disease) next to a group of uninfected individuals to be an action with a high likelihood of resulting in further spread of disease?

Y / N

14- Do you consider deliberately infecting individuals with a pathogen to be a criminal and/or immoral act?

Y / N

15- Assuming:
a) your goal was to minimize the loss of human life, and
b) you did not have medication of any sort,
would you consider subjecting healthy individuals to the presence (close proximity) of a sick, contagious, infectious individual with a terminal illness (of unknown origin) to be a rational decision?

Y / N

[Zolton]

If the eastward bound Jews were not murdered at the camps that revisionists claim they were dropped off at on the way to Treblinka, then where did they go? Are revisionists now claiming the Nazie just let them go free after doing some labor at the camp?

[...]

If the Jews who were offloaded to camps along the Treblinka route were not "involuntary manslaughtered" at those camps, then where did they go?

I don't know where they went. I don't know where they are. Nobody knows. Do you?

That's what I'm trying to figure out. Maybe you can help me out here. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The revisionist thesis on the Holocaust is The Final Solution to the Jewish problem was a forced emigration program, not an extermination pogrom.

The revisionist thesis on Treblinka is; hundreds of thousands of Jews were forced into crowded trains and transported eastward towards Treblinka, The conditions on the trains were so inhumane that tens of thousands of them died en route. And of those who didn't die by the time they got to Treblinka and were too weak to continue on, were murdered in a "euthanasia" program at TII. The rest were transported further east.

Now the newest twist on the revisionist thesis regarding Treblinka, is this:

Buttfangers:

A majority of them [Jews] never arrived at TII in the first place... Many or most, it would seem, departed at various labor camps along the way... evidence strongly suggests many (if not most) of them disembarked before ever getting as far as Treblinka. [The implication here is, they never got back on a train to continue their journey east]... Since we now know there were forced labor camps at these stops... it seems all but certain that a substantial number of Jews were let off at each of these stops [And again, never got back on a train heading east]... The evidence for Jews having disembarked is stronger than any evidence suggesting they did not... The fact is there were lengthy stops... FACT: The only rational explanation provided thus far for the lengthy stops at labor camps by a train filled with laborers is the departure/exchange of laborers..

And that all of this "new information" according to revisionists, implies:

Butterfangers:

that the question of "where did Jews [sent to Treblinka II] go" is perhaps irrelevant... I want to ensure it is brought further into the Revisionist sphere of discussion as it seems like a critical advancement on the topic of Treblinka and the AR camps and the looming question of "where did they [Jews] go?".

Would you agree with my assessment of the three topics I touched on above?

[Zolton]

Zolton:

"If they didn't die"? Are you claiming the Nazis just let the Jews go if their "labor assignment" didn't kill them?

Lamprecht:

When retreating?/quote]

No. What happened to all the Jews that revisionists now claim were dropped off at labor camps along the Treblinka route?

Zolton:

What about the Jews who died of "suffocation, dehydration, crushing caused by panicking deportees"? Did they use their feet to travel all over the place, especially after the war ended"?

Lamprecht:

Obviously not

Then what happened to all those dead Jews?

Zolton:

Or were they off loaded at the various stops along the eastward route?

Lamprecht:

That's possible I guess.

Could that explain the long stops along the route eastward towards Treblinka?

Is it possible that Jews were not dying by the thousands, and the long stops were necessary to let the Jews off to get fresh air, go to the bathroom, get some water, cook some food, take care of the sick, etc?

[Lamprecht]

Zolton:

No. What happened to all the Jews that revisionists now claim were dropped off at labor camps along the Treblinka route?

Either they died during the war from any number of things, or they survived.

Then what happened to all those dead Jews?

If a Jew died in transit then when the train eventually stops and unloads, the corpse would likely be buried, possibly after cremation to prevent the potential spread of disease.

Could that explain the long stops along the route eastward towards Treblinka?

Sure

Is it possible that Jews were not dying by the thousands, and the long stops were necessary to let the Jews off to get fresh air, go to the bathroom, get some water, cook some food, take care of the sick, etc?

It's possible they stopped for breaks of this nature, but it's also possible that they did not. Letting the prisoners roam free would have created a potential issue with escape attempts.
Additionally, it's unlikely that the sick would have been "cared for" which is rather silly in fact, it would imply that they would be taken off the train entirely and put in some quarantine somewhere. Actually, euthanizing those that are very sick would have been life-saving for those that are not sick. If you answered my questions you might have understood this.

Thousands dying on a train ride would have likely been a very rare occurrence, not deliberate. If that was happening to any serious degree, you would expect some complaints to be made as, eventually, the dead bodies would have to be removed from the trains and the trains decontaminated before anyone else could use them.
If the goal is to kill a people, putting them in conditions where they are likely to contract a lot of disease is far from ideal. It's one of the worst methods, because that disease can be spread to others.

You might find some answers reading the testimonies, but beware that a lot of these people are known to exaggerate.

[Zolton]

Zolton:

Is it possible that Jews were not dying by the thousands, and the long stops were necessary to let the Jews off to get fresh air, go to the bathroom, get some water, cook some food, take care of the sick, etc?

Lamprecht:

It's possible they stopped for breaks of this nature, but it's also possible that they did not. Letting the prisoners roam free would have created a potential issue with escape attempts.

Where did I say anything about letting prisoners roam free? I thought the new revisionist thesis was the trains stopped at camps along the route?

Lamprecht:

Additionally, it's unlikely that the sick would have been "cared for" which is rather silly in fact, it would imply that they would be taken off the train entirely and put in some quarantine somewhere.

It wouldn't imply anything other than letting the sick do whatever the healthy would want to do: eat, drink and evacuate.

Lamprecht:

Actually, euthanizing those that are very sick would have been life-saving for those that are not sick. If you answered my questions you might have understood this.

So the new revisionist thesis is that Jews not only died by the thousands en route to Treblinka, but the sick were murdered along the way as well.

Thank you for clarifying the revisionists point of view on this subject.

Lamprecht:

Thousands dying on a train ride would have likely been a very rare occurrence

Not according to revisionists:

https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=6838

Lamprecht:

eventually, the dead bodies would have to be removed from the trains

So what happened to all those thousands and thousands of dead bodies? Would it make more sense to drop them off on the way to Treblinka, or take them all the way to Treblinka? According to revisionists, the trains were stopped for long periods of time at the camps along the way. That would have given the healthier Jews lots of time to off load all those thousands of dead Jews who died because of the inhumane conditions on the train, wouldn't it?

Lamprecht:

and the trains decontaminated before anyone else could use them.

That would take time and add to the length of time for each stop, wouldn't it?

[borjastick]

The revisionist thesis on Treblinka is; hundreds of thousands of Jews were forced into crowded trains and transported eastward towards Treblinka, The conditions on the trains were so inhumane that tens of thousands of them died en route. And of those who didn't die by the time they got to Treblinka and were too weak to continue on, were murdered in a "euthanasia" program at TII. The rest were transported further east.

No it isn't.

[Zolton]

The revisionist thesis on Treblinka is; hundreds of thousands of Jews were forced into crowded trains and transported eastward towards Treblinka, The conditions on the trains were so inhumane that tens of thousands of them died en route. And of those who didn't die by the time they got to Treblinka and were too weak to continue on, were murdered in a "euthanasia" program at TII. The rest were transported further east.

No it isn't.

thomas "there is little reason to doubt" kues:

https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6804&start=60#p49361


Quote:
8 ) Sturdy Colls’s statement that “the failure to provide persuasive physical evidence [of mass graves] led some to question whether it could really be true that hundreds of thousands of Jews were killed here” implies that the presence of mass graves itself would be enough to refute the “deniers”. However, it is clear that mass graves of considerable size must have existed at Treblinka, even if it was in fact only a transit camp. Holocaust historian Dieter Pohl estimates that up to 5 % of the deportees to the Reinhardt camps perished en route due to suffocation, dehydration, crushing caused by panicking deportees etc.[19] Considering that the reception of transports at Treblinka during the intense initial months of operation is claimed to have been grossly mismanaged by the first camp commandant, Dr. Irmfried Eberl (who, apparently because of this reason, was fired and replaced by Franz Stangl), leading to the delay of transports at way stations [20] – and this in the summer heat of July and August – there is little reason to doubt this estimate with regard to Treblinka. Since some 800,000 Jews in total were deported to Treblinka during the camp’s period of operation (July 1942 – August 1943), this would mean a total of some 40,000 en route deaths. Moreover, there are reasons to assume that a smaller percentage of the deportees were subjected to “euthanasia” due to contageous or mental diseases, or for being too weak for further transport. To this should be added a smaller number of deaths among the camp inmates caused by epidemics etc, as well as those killed by guards in connection with attempts at escape or uprisings.

[Nazgul]

Now the newest twist on the revisionist thesis regarding Treblinka, is this:

The information given was to suggest another possibility to the claim Raul Hilberg has made; interpretation of Scheduling Order (Fahrplananordnung) 587. He says:

We know from other documents that upon arrival in the death camp, the Jews who are still alive are ripped out of the freight cars. We also know that within hours the Nazis kill almost everyone on the train; they send the Jewish men to the gas chambers first, then the Jewish women and children. From the scheduling order, we can see that the empty train (Leerzug) is sent to another community: Szydłowiec.

Raul Hilberg on Death Trains

There are no other documents of note, just eye witness statements from people who have made extraordinary claims.
The stops of the trains to and from Treblinka are highly correlated with Jewish Labour camps and major railway junctions.
Die Fahrplananordnung dokument presented or the other few that still exist cannot be used as evidence of mass arrivals at any final destination as has been done.
The lengthy stops at the site of Jewish Labour camps precludes the certainty of mass arrivals at the final destination.
It is possible they did, but not probable.
Evidence has been presented of Jews leaving Sobibor (an alleged death camp) to arrive at some munitions factories at the same die fahrplananordnung locations. Those transports would have their own scheduling arrangements with possibly Treblinka being the final destination.

This is not to say that all Jews ended up at Zwangarbeitslager, but a good majority did, even the kids.

Jüdische Kinder, die im Arbeitslager arbeiten

If any person could establish that trains did arrive at Treblinka with all of the passengers that would be welcome, as it would give a clearer picture of what really happened.

Treblinka had two camps; Arbeitslager Treblinka I (commissioned June 1941) had over 20 thousand people pass through its confines. link. This camp was serviced by trains for arrivals of people and goods as well as departures. This camp therefore would be mentioned in some Fahrplananordnung document.