Simple question: What happened to the people who were sent to the camps? / 'Where did they go?'

[Lamprecht]

Werd posted this from Juergen Graf:

Such unanswered questions can presumably be clarified only through documents held in archives in Russia and in other countries of the former Soviet Union. There are reasons to hope that a future nationalist government in Russia will one day make such documents public. I do not need to spell out the obvious dramatic and politically important consequences of such a step.

Seriously? As if the communists would have left such documents sitting around waiting to be found.

That's a bit too optimistic I'd say. A more likely scenario is that they would have some sloppy forgeries that support their insane "Holocaust" conspiracy theory. The laughable "Jaeger report" is one such example. Recommended:

The Soviet Union's documented use of document forgeries, Active Measures
viewtopic.php?t=12297

[Carto's Cutlass Supreme]

But keep in mind that there's such thing as a forgery that's not sloppy. It's been a help to the holocaust denial movement that there are sloppy forgeries out there, so many that there becomes a belief that all forgeries must have some dumb mistake, or made on paper or with a typewriter that doesn't fit; but the possibility that someone somewhere made excellent flawless forgeries is there too. Particularly when you consider how big of a deal this is.

[Lamprecht]

But keep in mind that there's such thing as a forgery that's not sloppy.

Indeed, the typical method is to take a real document and just change a small bit of it, maybe adding 1-2 zeros, or changing a word or sentence. They don't usually start with a fresh paper and typewriter. The thread I linked to has many US cold-war guides on this where they describe the process, as well as Soviet defectors.

It's been a help to the holocaust denial movement that there are sloppy forgeries out there, so many that there becomes a belief that all forgeries must have some dumb mistake, or made on paper or with a typewriter that doesn't fit; but the possibility that someone somewhere made excellent flawless forgeries is there too. Particularly when you consider how big of a deal this is.

Yes, it's not hard to type words on a paper. If you have a list of "reports" that all look basically identical, the same typewriter (only a few fonts/styles existed at the time) you can take one and easily make a very convincing forgery.

But any charge of "Forgery" is used to make us seem like "conspiracy theorists that deny all the evidence" - somehow though, a consistent use of "code words" across many documents, diary entries, etc is not a "conspiracy theory". It's a conspiracy all right, "But it really happened!" so that takes the "theory" part out of it (I think they use these dubious documents on purpose sometimes, just as a trick to throw this label)

The real question is, if the Germans were so focused on hiding the reality of "pure extermination camps" Treblinka 2, Sobibor, and Belzec that they dug up rotting corpses, burned them and dumped them into pits "to cover the traces" all the while consistently using "resettlement" and "deportation" as "code words" in the documents about them, why not spend a day with a typewriter making fake / forged outbound records full of resettled Jews?

I never get a satisfying answer to that. It's just such an obvious thing that would have done if the "Holocaust" allegations about these "pure extermination camps" were even half-true. Already there were English-language news reports during the war claiming "resettlement to the east" meant "mass murder" for these camps, so they certainly would have forged some records claiming "jews resettled to the east from T2/B/S" if they were indeed gassing 100s of thousands at these camps. And it was known that these camps did in fact exist in the exact locations, there was no "there was no such camp here" defense at all.

Yes, the camps were dismantled, but long before the Soviets made their way to them. So there was ample time for the Germans to type up "Jews were resettled" forgeries. Did nobody think to do it? I don't buy the "The Germans were just too stupid to think about that" excuse.

[Zulu]

F
The revisionists say that Hitler intended to deport them (to lands formerly held by the USSR I guess). That is why the camps were mostly in Poland -- he was pushing them East. However, is there any evidence that such deportations were ever carried out? If not, why not? Is there someone -- a survivor -- who said something like "I was at Treblinka for two months and then I was shipped out to Russia." Why were some survivors at Auschwitz for years if the whole point was to deport them? Is there evidence from reconnaisance photos showing trains filled with people traveling from the camps in an Eastward direction?

The question is whether Hitler wanted the "exterminate" all the Jews of Europe or not.
We are told that the intention is clearly stated in Mein Kampf however there are posterior facts which contradict such allegation.

1- Madagascar Plan

The Madagascar Plan was a proposal by the Nazi German government to forcibly relocate the Jewish population of Europe to the island of Madagascar. Franz Rademacher, head of the Jewish Department of the German Foreign Office, proposed the idea in June 1940, shortly before the Fall of France. The proposal called for the handing over of control of Madagascar, then a French colony, to Germany as part of the French surrender terms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan

2. The Haavara agreement

he Haavara Agreement (Hebrew: הֶסְכֵּם הַעֲבָרָה Translit.: heskem haavara Translated: "transfer agreement") was an agreement between Nazi Germany and Zionist German Jews signed on 25 August 1933. The agreement was finalized after three months of talks by the Zionist Federation of Germany, the Anglo-Palestine Bank (under the directive of the Jewish Agency) and the economic authorities of Nazi Germany. It was a major factor in making possible the migration of approximately 60,000 German Jews to Palestine in 1933–1939.[1]

The agreement enabled Jews fleeing persecution under the new Nazi regime to transfer some portion of their assets to British Mandatory Palestine.[2] Emigrants sold their assets in Germany to pay for essential goods (manufactured in Germany) to be shipped to Mandatory Palestine.[3][4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement

3. The Wansee Protocol (which often is used as a proof of the "final solution" meaning "extermination" while it was in fact a documentary proof of the relocation of the Jews.

4. Letter from Hermann Goering to Reinhard Heydrich, Berlin, July 31, 1941

...namely the solve the Jewish question by the way of emigration and evacuation...

https://www.trumanlibrary.gov/library/r ... d-heydrich

We have to always bear in mind that, among the thousands of tons of III Reich documents sized by the allies, we only have access to those released by them. That means that the major part of the documents which are made public since Nuremberg are mostly incriminatory to the Nazis.
For instance, while we have most of the German railways documents which certify the arrival of the prisoners at the camps, we don't have access to the documents of the trains' departures from those camps. We know they exist because we have many proofs of survivors who have traveled from Auschwitz or Treblinka toward other camps.

IMO, the key documents which would be able to debunk definitely all the Holocaust's story are in the hands of the Russians.
Nowadays, that is not in the interest of Poutine to rehabilitate the Hitler's regime because the consequence would be that Staline and the URSS would appear as the actual criminal monsters.
So, we will have to wait a little in order to establish the actual story of the Eastern Nazi camps and the evacuation of Jews towards East.

[Lamprecht]

I posted previously:

OP: tell me when you have read the links provided, and then come back with the questions you don't feel are answered about. If this topic is truly important to you, I expect you do the actual research. It's really not very much at all.

No response from OP yet, but I have a bit of free time today so I will address some other points he made in the OP:

The revisionists say that Hitler intended to deport them (to lands formerly held by the USSR I guess). That is why the camps were mostly in Poland -- he was pushing them East.

The "Final Solution" was a policy that was intended to remove the Jews from Europe. Deporting them to lands formerly held by the USSR was seen only as temporary measures. The "Final Solution" was officially postponed until after that war, so it never came to fruition. I'll get to that more later (and have discussed it in many threads that have been linked)

However, is there any evidence that such deportations were ever carried out?

Various documents saying exactly this, as well as personal diary entries.

See my links on the "Final Solution" and Aktion Reinhardt that I posted in this reply: viewtopic.php?p=96272#p96272

From the Goebbels diary:

18 December 1941:
"I speak with the Führer regarding the Jewish Question. He is determined to take consistent action and not be deterred by bourgeois sentimentality. Above all, the Jews must leave the Reich (aus…heraus)... The Jews should all be pushed off (abgeschoben) to the East. We are not very interested in what becomes of them after that."

7 March 1942 (probably referencing the 20 January 1942 Wannsee conference/protocols):
"I read a detailed report from the SD and police regarding a final solution of the Jewish Question. Any final solution involves a tremendous number of new viewpoints. The Jewish Question must be solved within a pan-European frame. There are 11 million Jews still in Europe. They will have to be concentrated later, to begin with, in the East; possibly an island, such as Madagascar, can be assigned to them after the war. In any case there can be no peace in Europe until the last Jews are shut off from (ausgeschaltet) the continent."

27 April 1942:
"I talked to the Führer once more in detail about the Jewish Question. His attitude is unrelenting. He wants, under all circumstances, to push the Jews out (herausdrängen) of Europe. That is right. The Jews have brought so much misery to our continent that the severest punishment meted out to them is still too mild. Himmler is presently implementing a large resettlement (Umseidlung) of Jews from German cities to the eastern ghettos."

30 May 1942:
"Therefore the Führer does not at all wish that the Jews should be evacuated (evakuiert) to Siberia. There, under the harshest living conditions, they would undoubtedly develop again a strong life-element. He would much prefer to resettle (aussiedeln) them in central Africa. There they would live in a climate that would certainly not make them strong and resistant. In any case, it is the Führer's goal to make Western Europe completely Jew-free. Here they may no longer have their homeland."

21 August 1942:
"The Jews are now in large part evacuated (evakuiert) and established in the East. This is quite generous to them. Here the Jewish Question is tackled in the right place, without sentimentality and without much consideration. Only in this way can the Jewish problem be solved."

1 October 1942:
"I drive back to the Chancellery with the Führer. Once again we talk through the Jewish Question. Here the Führer takes the same radical standpoint I do. He is also of the opinion that we must completely deport the Jews out of the Reich (restlos herausschaffen), and above all from Berlin."

3 January 1943 (on the Führer Reichstag prophecy):
"It's amazing how shortsightedly the Jews all over the world operate. They seem to have learned nothing from the example in Germany. Apparently the hemorrhaging of them by us yielded very little fruit. They should expect this frivolous playing with fire to continue until they are completely wiped out (gänzlich vernichtet). This also corresponds to the Führer's prophecy, when he explained at the beginning of the war that it would not end with the destruction (Vernichtung) of the Aryan race, but with the expulsion (Austreibung) of Jewry from Europe."

23 January 1943:
"The Führer is of the opinion that the Jewish Question in Berlin must be solved as soon as possible. As long as one still finds Jews in Berlin, we cannot speak of internal security. Also the Jews must be removed from Vienna (aus…heraus) as fast as possible."

2 March 1943:
"We are now definitely pushing the Jews out (aus…hinaus) of Berlin. They were suddenly rounded up last Saturday, and are to be carted off (abgeschoben) to the East as quickly as possible."

15 March 1943:
"You just can’t trust the Jews across the street. I therefore told the Führer emphatically once more that I deemed it essential to force the Jews out (herauszubringen) of the entire Reich as fast as possible. He approved, and ordered me not to cease or pause until no Jew is left anywhere in Germany."

18 April 1943:
"I believe I shall have completed one of the greatest political achievements of my career once Berlin is free of Jews. When I consider how Berlin looked in 1926 when I came here, and how it looks now in 1943 when the Jews are being evacuated (evakuiert) completely, I get a feeling of what has been achieved in this sector."

8 May 1943:
"The East will forever regard Europe as an attractive jewel. The East will again and again try to break into this continent in order to dominate it. Our constant, untiring effort must therefore center upon taking the necessary measures for our security. If it be true today that the Bolshevism of the East is mainly under Jewish leadership and that the Jews are also the dominant influence in the Western plutocracies, then our anti-Semitic propaganda must begin at this point. The Jews must therefore be thrown out (aus…heraus) of Europe."

Is there someone -- a survivor -- who said something like "I was at Treblinka for two months and then I was shipped out to Russia."

Treblinka 1 was a work camp and Treblinka 2 was either a "pure extermination camp" or transit camp, depending on if revisionists or exterminationists are correct. During the Demjanjuk trial, a number of Jews admitted to being transited from Treblinka. Examples here: http://vho.org/GB/Books/t/10.html#ftnref872

So nobody would have been at Treblinka II (the alleged extermination camp) for 2 months based on either side's claims. Except maybe the workers there.

Why were some survivors at Auschwitz for years if the whole point was to deport them?

There were 3 main Auschwitz camps, and many inmates were used for labor. Some death row inmates were sent to Auschwitz to be subjected for months of forced labor, and then publicly executed. It was a prison camp during a war. The Auschwitz death records show: viewtopic.php?p=94680#p94680

Total number of inmates executed: 1616
Total Poles executed: 1465
Total Jews executed: 114

The goal of the "Final Solution" was to remove all Jews from Europe. Again, since this "Final Solution" policy was officially postponed until after the war, any actions taken were temporary measures.

By February 1943, a turning point with the loss of the Battle of Stalingrad, the Germans were expelled from the Caucasus and everything gained in the 1942 Summer Campaign was slowly being lost. As the Soviets were regaining these territories, evacuations "to the East" become completely infeasible. Using Jews for labor was now considered more practical than dumping them into ghettos, so the focus was shifted to Auschwitz (which had a synthetic-rubber and petroleum plant since May 1942) rather than Operation Reinhardt, which ended later that year.

Is there evidence from reconnaisance photos showing trains filled with people traveling from the camps in an Eastward direction?

I am not sure how that would even exist, but there are no reconnaissance photos showing hundreds of thousands of Jews being burned in open air pyres at Treblinka 2, Sobibor, or Belzec when that was supposedly happening.

If not, what was the point of the camps and what was the point of putting most of them in Poland?

Poland was conquered territory and the Germans were moving Eastward, expecting to win the war. The "pure extermination camps" were put in strategic areas in regards to railways.

I explained the purpose of the camps in my previous post, especially when I linked to:
5 January 1944 Globocnik Report to Himmler (4024-PS) on Operation Reinhard(t)
viewtopic.php?t=12359

Were they simply labor camps?

There were labor, internment, and transit camps. Some were mixtures of two or three.

And what happened to all the concentration camp prisoners if they were neither deported nor deliberately murdered? If millions went into the camps and a much smaller number than that were liberated in spring 1945, where did they all go?

How do we know they were not deported? Which prisoners? Some obviously died (disease, starvation, allied bombing, etc) as revisionists have always claimed. Some may have even been executed, but not in any "extermination of Jews" policy.



What numbers are you speaking of? Please provide these numbers and the sources of them.

[Zulu]

...

Treblinka 1 was a work camp and Treblinka 2 was either a "pure extermination camp" or transit camp, depending on if revisionists or exterminationists are correct. During the Demjanjuk trial, a number of Jews admitted to being transited from Treblinka. Examples here: http://vho.org/GB/Books/t/10.html#ftnref872
So nobody would have been at Treblinka II (the alleged extermination camp) for 2 months based on either side's claims. Except maybe the workers there.

The video by Eric Hunt on Treblinka shows several Jews who transited from this camp toward other destination. There were not alone by being part of entire convoys.
https://archive.org/details/TheTreblinkaArchaeologyHoax
Those departures are a proof that documents attesting trains' departures from Treblinka are missing as are most of similar documents from other camps.

There is another thing that is must be noticed about that camp; the only documentary proof of murders performed at Treblinka and exhibited at Nuremberg was the official report ref. 3311-PS made by a Soviet commission and accepted as an authentic evidence according with the article 21 of the statute of the Tribunal.

The erection of this camp was closely connected with the German plans aiming at a complete destruction of the Jewish population in Poland which necessitated the creation of a machinery by means of which the Polish Jews could be killed in large numbers. Late in April 1942, the erection of the first three chambers was finished in which these general massacres were to be performed by means of steam. Somewhat later the erection of the real death building was finished, which contains ten death chambers. It was opened for wholesale murders early in autumn 1942 (3311-PS)
.../

"All victims had to strip off their clothes and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims. women and children first, were driven into the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak to move quickly were driven on by rifle butts, by whipping and kicking, often by Sauer himself. Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward and stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over. The Jewish menial workers had to remove the bodies from the platform and to bury them in mass graves. By and by, as new transports arrived, the cemetery grew, extending in eastern direction.

"From reports received, it may be assumed that several hundred thousands of Jews have been exterminated in Treblinka." (3311-PS)

Source: https://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/chap_12.asp

[Breker]

Well gents, ladies, it appears that the owner of the OP is now rather speechless at the devastating answers to their questions.
They clearly got more than they bargained for.
B.

"These Holocaust deniers are very slick people. They justify everything they say with facts and figures."

- Steven Some, Chairman of the New Jersey Commission on Holocaust Education, Newark Star-Ledger, 23 Oct. 1996, p 15.

[Merlin300]

First timer here. I've read Ron Unz's thoughtful article and Thomas Dalton's book. Unz and Dalton convinced me that there are major red flags in the traditionalist narrative, but there is one nagging question I still have.

There does not seem to be any disagreement that millions of people (Jews etc) were sent to concentration camps in Germany and Poland during WW II.

The revisionists say that Hitler intended to deport them (to lands formerly held by the USSR I guess). That is why the camps were mostly in Poland -- he was pushing them East. However, is there any evidence that such deportations were ever carried out? If not, why not? Is there someone -- a survivor -- who said something like "I was at Treblinka for two months and then I was shipped out to Russia." Why were some survivors at Auschwitz for years if the whole point was to deport them? Is there evidence from reconnaisance photos showing trains filled with people traveling from the camps in an Eastward direction?

If not, what was the point of the camps and what was the point of putting most of them in Poland? Were they simply labor camps? And what happened to all the concentration camp prisoners if they were neither deported nor deliberately murdered? If millions went into the camps and a much smaller number than that were liberated in spring 1945, where did they all go?

Hello ST, Good Question. The answer has several parts-
The first point is figure out how many people were actually sent into the so-called Extermination Camps.

That figure was greatly exaggerated at Nuremberg and claims made that actual German records were captured For example, the Soviets claimed that 4,150,000 people were sent to Auschwitz-Birkenau and 4,000,000 murdered and 1,700,000 were sent to Majdanek and most murdered. It is now generally accepted that these figures are about 4,500,000 too high. Ironically German camp records, which seem confirmed by train records,
show much lower admissions into the "Extermination Camps." Train records are a very good source of primary information and, in Western Europe,
are very complete and show pretty clearly when and where people were sent.

A second point not often mentioned is that National Socialist policies varied from country to country and time to time.
This relates to the number of people actually sent to "Extermination camps". It turns out that by November 1941 about 80% of Jewish German-Austrians had already emigrated. The remaining people were of often elderly.
[I will have to continue the discussion, business calls]

[feather dinosaur]

But keep in mind that there's such thing as a forgery that's not sloppy.

Indeed, the typical method is to take a real document and just change a small bit of it, maybe adding 1-2 zeros, or changing a word or sentence. They don't usually start with a fresh paper and typewriter. The thread I linked to has many US cold-war guides on this where they describe the process, as well as Soviet defectors.

It's been a help to the holocaust denial movement that there are sloppy forgeries out there, so many that there becomes a belief that all forgeries must have some dumb mistake, or made on paper or with a typewriter that doesn't fit; but the possibility that someone somewhere made excellent flawless forgeries is there too. Particularly when you consider how big of a deal this is.

Yes, it's not hard to type words on a paper. If you have a list of "reports" that all look basically identical, the same typewriter (only a few fonts/styles existed at the time) you can take one and easily make a very convincing forgery.

But any charge of "Forgery" is used to make us seem like "conspiracy theorists that deny all the evidence" - somehow though, a consistent use of "code words" across many documents, diary entries, etc is not a "conspiracy theory". It's a conspiracy all right, "But it really happened!" so that takes the "theory" part out of it (I think they use these dubious documents on purpose sometimes, just as a trick to throw this label)

The real question is, if the Germans were so focused on hiding the reality of "pure extermination camps" Treblinka 2, Sobibor, and Belzec that they dug up rotting corpses, burned them and dumped them into pits "to cover the traces" all the while consistently using "resettlement" and "deportation" as "code words" in the documents about them, why not spend a day with a typewriter making fake / forged outbound records full of resettled Jews?

I never get a satisfying answer to that. It's just such an obvious thing that would have done if the "Holocaust" allegations about these "pure extermination camps" were even half-true. Already there were English-language news reports during the war claiming "resettlement to the east" meant "mass murder" for these camps, so they certainly would have forged some records claiming "jews resettled to the east from T2/B/S" if they were indeed gassing 100s of thousands at these camps. And it was known that these camps did in fact exist in the exact locations, there was no "there was no such camp here" defense at all.

Yes, the camps were dismantled, but long before the Soviets made their way to them. So there was ample time for the Germans to type up "Jews were resettled" forgeries. Did nobody think to do it? I don't buy the "The Germans were just too stupid to think about that" excuse.

let me get this straight. so the holocaust didn't happen, because there aren't any documents, hitler orders etc, just testimony (which doesnt count), and all the documents describing killings that do exist must be forgeries because the holocaust was faked, because if the germans really had done the holocaust they would have forged some fake resettlement documents. talk about 4d chess

[Hannover]

let me get this straight. so the holocaust didn't happen, because there aren't any documents, hitler orders etc, just testimony (which doesnt count), and all the documents describing killings that do exist must be forgeries because the holocaust was faked, because if the germans really had done the holocaust they would have forged some fake resettlement documents. talk about 4d chess

So, here's our chance, some simple questions:

* Concerning "testimonies":

Tell us what "testimonies' you think proves the so called 'holocaust'.
Give us the names of those supposedly 'testifying'.
Tell us what they said in their own words.
Tell us where the event supposedly being 'testified' about occurred.
Tell us when it supposedly happened.
And tell us what court they testified in.

* Tell us what 'documents' you think prove the so called 'holocaust' and why.
Please show us the German originals with any alleged 'English translations' that you may present.

* Show us any 'orders' which you think proves the so called 'holocaust'.
Tell us why you think they are proof.
Please show us the German originals with any alleged 'English translations' that you may present.

* Please tell us how the alleged 'gas chambers' supposedly worked.

* Please show us the many, many millions of alleged human remains which are claimed to exist in precisely known locations, yet do not exist.

There you go, we're awaiting your response.

- Hannover

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the laughable 'holocaust' storyline is the message.

[Otium]

let me get this straight. so the holocaust didn't happen, because there aren't any documents, hitler orders etc, just testimony (which doesnt count), and all the documents describing killings that do exist must be forgeries because the holocaust was faked, because if the germans really had done the holocaust they would have forged some fake resettlement documents. talk about 4d chess

The frustrating thing about this comment is that it shows me that you have no real interest in what Revisionists actually think. Instead of asking questions and perhaps engaging in a discussion you've synthesized into a meager paragraph the intentionally false arguments you want revisionists to believe, which we do not. Building up this strawman doesn't make us look bad, it makes you look ignorant and scared to be challenged on your holy gospel.

Do you perhaps think revisionists haven't contended with these vague "documents, testimony and orders" nonsense? I don't know what's worse; you being uninformed enough to make this kind of comment, or actually knowing what we have contended with and actually think, yet you pull and twist it into a farce that will benefit your preconceived beliefs.

If you're that uninformed that you have no actual knowledge of the state of research conducted by revisionists, thus no knowledge of our arguments and views - then you have no place to make such asinine comments about a topic you know nothing about. Which inevitably proves that you're a dogmatic disciple of the Holocaust Cult, a faith which can stand no criticism.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The most ridiculous thing you said was that we think "the documents which talk about killings must be forgeries". The clear implication being that whatever we Revisionists find inconvenient to our view of the Holocaust is dismissed out of petulance. If this were true then you would have no problem bringing to our attention the alleged "documents" which "talk about killings" to refute us. Yet you can't and won't.

I'll point out that the existence of any such document, if they did indeed exist, wouldn't reflect well on your own position as a Holocaust Believer. On the one hand you proclaim that the Holocaust was conducted in utter secrecy and "code" yet, according to you, there's apparently explicit documentation? This contradiction in the Believer narrative doesn't make you look trustworthy in the slightest. I wonder if you could explain why in the 10 million documents of the Bad Arolsen files there isn't ONE which is related to the alleged "plan, order, documentation" to exterminate the Jews or anybody else. This being one example.

In any case, it's best not to get into a tizzy about documents when you believers cannot even come to the table with PHYSICAL evidence of any of the things you're claiming are supposedly "revealed" in these ethereal documents. Where are the Gas Chambers? Where are the bone grinding mills? Where are the induction holes for Zyklon B? HOW did the Einsatzgruppen possibly manage with less than 10 thousand men to exterminate 4 thousand Jews a day, 34,000 Jews in one day and hide all the evidence in 12 months at the same time? And most importantly, WHERE ARE THE PITS AND REMAINS? Maybe if you could establish any of the actual shit you say that pertains to the real world you'd have a hope in hell of "proving" the Holocaust from behind the desk. What you won't do is get me to believe in the Holocaust based on flimsy documentation and no physical evidence.

If you're here, then surely you want to argue. So go ahead. Be honest with what you believe.

[Lamprecht]

let me get this straight. so the holocaust didn't happen, because there aren't any documents, hitler orders etc, just testimony (which doesnt count), and all the documents describing killings that do exist must be forgeries because the holocaust was faked, because if the germans really had done the holocaust they would have forged some fake resettlement documents. talk about 4d chess

Please define "Holocaust" I have no idea what that means. Then, when you have done this, show the physical evidence that proves "Deniers" wrong.

And all of the documents describing "Final Solution" and "Aktion Reinhardt" were faked too, according to your own story.

[stinkytoes]

Well gents, ladies, it appears that the owner of the OP is now rather speechless at the devastating answers to their questions.
They clearly got more than they bargained for.
B.

"These Holocaust deniers are very slick people. They justify everything they say with facts and figures."

- Steven Some, Chairman of the New Jersey Commission on Holocaust Education, Newark Star-Ledger, 23 Oct. 1996, p 15.

I have been busy with work and did not have time to dig into this. I plan to do so now.

[stinkytoes]

OP: tell me when you have read the links provided, and then come back with the questions you don't feel are answered about. If this topic is truly important to you, I expect you do the actual research. It's really not very much at all.

I will do so. I have time for the first time in awhile. I am going through the links.

[Lamprecht]

The most ridiculous thing you said was that we think "the documents which talk about killings must be forgeries". The clear implication being that whatever we Revisionists find inconvenient to our view of the Holocaust is dismissed out of petulance. If this were true then you would have no problem bringing to our attention the alleged "documents" which "talk about killings" to refute us. Yet you can't and won't.

I'll point out that the existence of any such document, if they did indeed exist, wouldn't reflect well on your own position as a Holocaust Believer. On the one hand you proclaim that the Holocaust was conducted in utter secrecy and "code" yet, according to you, there's apparently explicit documentation? This contradiction in the Believer narrative doesn't make you look trustworthy in the slightest. I wonder if you could explain why in the 10 million documents of the Bad Arolsen files there isn't ONE which is related to the alleged "plan, order, documentation" to exterminate the Jews or anybody else. This being one example.

Personally I would be surprised to hear anyone claim that the Germans had no documents about killings during WW2. Did they even fight in this war? I wouldn't take such a person seriously.

Obviously no documents were specified, so we have no idea what this individual is referring to, probably something he imagined in a dream or assumed was the case. Or maybe not.

Yes, the Germans killed people in WW2. So did all of the other belligerents. It's kind of the point, really. When people shoot at you, you shoot back. This goes back all the way to the paleolothic with sharpened sticks and rocks. Actually based on observations of ants and other hominids, warfare of various types precedes our own species' existence.

Of course what we do know is that if a Jew died in the particular war known as WW2, then he was "Holocausted" and is a "Holocaust victim". The other details aren't really important in this regard.

But if a gentile died in the same way or for a comparable reason, he is merely a "casualty of war".