Proof of the so called General Plan Ost ?

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Volksgenosse
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Proof of the so called General Plan Ost ?

Postby Volksgenosse » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Tue Feb 14, 2023 7:47 pm)

The Jewish Virtual Library, in it's thread about Martin Bormann (https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/martin-bormann), cites a memorandum of Bormann as some kind of proof that the Germans wanted to enslave the Slavs and have their population decline through abortions etc.

“The Slavs are to work for us [Germans]. Insofar as we do not need them, they may die. Therefore, compulsory vaccination and German health service are superfluous. The fertility of the Slavs is undesirable. They may use contraceptives or practice... abortion, the more the better. Education is dangerous. It is enough if they can count up to 100. At best an education which produces useful coolies for us is admissible. Every educated person is a future enemy. Religion we leave to them as a means of diversion. As for food, they will not get any more than is necessary. We are the masters; we come first.”

Martin Bormann
Memorandum dated 23 July 1942, Nuremberg Trial Proceedings Volume 11



So apparently this is a Nuremberg document against Bormann, who was convicted in death in absentia. I didn't have the time to check if it exists digitally in the German Federal Archives, and wasn't able to find much info except people and authors citing it as proof of German plans and stuff like that. Doesn't seem we have talked about this particular document in this forum, so it's a great chance to discuss about this, as we should eliminate any possible allegations of German extermination plans if we want to prove that something like that didn't happen. Has anyone got any information on it ?

DissentingOpinions
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Re: Proof of the so called General Plan Ost ?

Postby DissentingOpinions » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Tue Feb 14, 2023 8:01 pm)

How hard is it to read Adolf Hitler’s words in Mein Kampf & figure out that he only wanted to make Germany & Austria a single nation?

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Re: Proof of the so called General Plan Ost ?

Postby EtienneSC » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Tue Feb 14, 2023 9:39 pm)

It was discussed at Nuremberg on 17 April 1946:
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/04-17-46.asp
This appears to be one of the documents referred to in the discussion between Dodds and Rosenberg:
https://exhibits.stanford.edu/virtual-tribunals/catalog/rt853dw3024
Rosenberg pointed out that the policies advocated by Bormann were not implemented but rather the opposite. He does not deny that he received such a Memorandum though.

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Re: Proof of the so called General Plan Ost ?

Postby Waldgänger » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Tue Feb 14, 2023 11:20 pm)

I don't think this memorandum is anywhere near as morally egregious as alleged gas chambers, Einsatzgruppen shootings, purposeful starvations of millions of POWs, or "death through overwork". He's outlining a basic strategy of subduing a conquered population. Do we find these distasteful in a democratic age? Probably most do, but looking at the history of conquests from ancient times until now, those who are determined to control a conquered area will do anything necessary to quell the locals. None of this was a crime before Nuremberg made it so.

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Re: Proof of the so called General Plan Ost ?

Postby fireofice » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Tue Feb 14, 2023 11:43 pm)

Here's a post I made a while back as well as some others who followed up that I think is relevant for any discussion on plans that the Nazis had for the Slavs:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14168

Yes, there were not so nice policies that were thrown around as ideas for what to do with the Slavic population that was conquered. But there was never anything set in stone. Also, we should be weary about forgeries. Not saying all these things are forgeries, but we do know that Himmler's call to exterminate all Poles was a forgery, for example. This is admitted by none other the HC bloggers.

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... mmler.html

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Re: Proof of the so called General Plan Ost ?

Postby hermod » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Wed Feb 15, 2023 2:14 am)

How is the will not to encourage a high birth rate for your enemies a proof of plans for enslavement and mass slaughter??? I doubt that the Polish leaders of that time had more benevolent projects for ethnic Germans.
"[Austen Chamberlain] has done western civilization a great service by refuting at least one of the slanders against the Germans
because a civilization which leaves war lies unchallenged in an atmosphere of hatred and does not produce courage in its leaders to refute them
is doomed.
"

Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, on the public admission by Britain's Foreign Secretary that the WWI corpse-factory story was false, December 4, 1925

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Re: Proof of the so called General Plan Ost ?

Postby Hektor » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Wed Feb 15, 2023 2:37 am)

Waldgänger wrote:I don't think this memorandum is anywhere near as morally egregious as alleged gas chambers, Einsatzgruppen shootings, purposeful starvations of millions of POWs, or "death through overwork". He's outlining a basic strategy of subduing a conquered population. Do we find these distasteful in a democratic age? Probably most do, but looking at the history of conquests from ancient times until now, those who are determined to control a conquered area will do anything necessary to quell the locals. None of this was a crime before Nuremberg made it so.

But such statements or text portions are used to create a slippery slope. From saying not so nice things about Jews, Slavs or whatever towards gassing them first and then struggling to get them through an elevator to put them into an oven.

That's why it is necessary to get the context on any text and of course make sure the authenticity has been checked. Although I think that while there are examples of fake documents, the usual persuasion tactic is to gather snippets of text portions and then use them in arguments to support a thesis one wishes to convey. Simply get all the texts were NS-figures said something unfavorable about Jews and link it up with typhus victims. Most people can be easily made to draw the conclusion then that there must have been a Holocaust.
That Jews didn't figure that much in NS-publications most people won't know and will not be feasibly able to find out, because for that purpose they would have to scan millions of documents, before they could come to the conclusion that while the Jewish Question was a concern to NS, it wasn't that big a concern as one would conclude from the way that it is presented nowadays.

Martin Bormann was essentially the party secretary after Rudolf Hess wasn't available anymore. That's an important function, but not as important as he's made out to be nowadays. It seems lots of the controversial stuff was written, when Hitler was busy with more urgent matters. Within the NSDAP he was part of the more progressive wing that wanted to streamline everything and centralize decision making. Himmler had a similar attitude. Others where either more relaxed and Hitler even wanted affairs to be decentralized (let the people make decisions locally).

And of course you are right. An occupational power or alternatively a colonial power does have an interest to have a level of control over an area they claim authority over. They will prioritize their interest over the local interest of course. That's btw. also howe monarchs ruled and democracies are in no way different. The actual difference between Monarchy and Democracy is that the Monarch is only one person, with perhaps an entourage that needs to be entertained. In a democracy the groups of people that need to be entertained are far larger, since there are more people with potential say on who the government is going to be. In practice that means that a democratic regime has to loot far more resources from others to benefit it's constituency than a monarch would have to do. In practice there was of course always some easing with this. A colony was seen as source of commodities and off-set market for manufactured goods. So one wanted to get production going there and also that money was earned in the colony so the people there would purchase goods from the motherland. This would increase tax revenue without increasing the tax rates.

And well, the Nuremberg accused were all vast colonial empires. This accounts for the US, Great Britain, France, but also for the Soviet Union. The later did style themselves as the opposite of course, but Sovietism was for sure a mod of imperialism. The clique in Moscow did rule the Soviet Provinces as colonial subjects even while they pretended that "everybody was equal". There was a reason why many of the former Soviet republics wanted to leave. For the more traditional colonial powers like Britain and France the aftermath of world war two didn't age well, not at all. They lost most of their former colonial possessions and the subject became quite controversial even in the motherland itself. I'd guess their hypocrisy in Nuremberg came home for them. For investment firms it however also turned out that one didn't need to have Colonies to do foreign investment in commodity production or extraction. In fact the new governments in the former colonies turned out to be more corrupt and more incompetent than the previous colonial officials. That meant that one had more 'freedom' to do their as one pleased as long as the new officials got their payouts in the form of bribes and other benefits. The previous colonial powers so the Colonies as assets of the empire to be developed. While the new regimes saw the 'liberated countries' as objects to be looted as quick as possible.

Back from the excursion. For NS-Germany the occupied countries had to be productive as to support the war effort.... That didn't work in the same way for all of those countries of course. The Western occupied countries already had a functioning administration and economy. I doubt that would have been the case with e.g. the Reichskommissariat Ukraine. That had to be reorganized more thoroughly. That this wasn't without conflicts can be assumed of course. But they got production going for 1942 and 1943. There were also other issues with the administration and I think Rosenberg let people in on things there. That there were conflicts on which direction to go. Actually I think a lot of this was explained by the accused, but far-going ignored.

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Re: Proof of the so called General Plan Ost ?

Postby Volksgenosse » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:19 am)

Personally it would not surprise me for Bormann making these harsh statements, as first of all i think he was more Germano-centric than yearning for a United Europe ideal. Anti-Slavism first of all, was a sentiment in Western Europe that had a standing among the intellectuals and racialists at the end of the 19th century and so forth. Even Karl Marx, considered the Slavs as " disposables/garbage", so it was not only a "Nazi phenomenon". Madison Grant and De Gobinaeu were the ones who passed their Anti-Slavic theories to some racialists of the start of the 20th century.

Rosenberg acknowledged in Nuremberg (im referring to the transcripts EttieneSC uploaded), that Bormann indeed had such a rhetoric about Slavs from time to time, and that he supported Koch, which Rosenberg didn't like at all because of his actions in Ukraine. This is corroborated by Otto Skorzeny too in his book " My Commando Operations ".

Quoting :

When I was in Kiev in 1941 a dozen tiny groups were struggling for dominance: cach group wanted to govern alone and in opposition to the others. One wanted a monarchy and a Romanov, the other a “solid republic,” the third a democracy, and so on. Among the immigrants from the west there were certainly some good political brains, but they were unknown in the Ukraine, where a man like Gauleiter Koch, supported by Bormann, was able to do his foul work. Alfred Rosenberg supported the idea of a free Ukrainian state and wanted to reintroduce the Ukrainian lan- guage, which had been banned from books, newspapers and schools since Alexander II's “Ukas” of 1876. Himmler, Bormann and Koch were against it.
After giving the matter a great deal of consideration, the Reichsfiihrer proposed that Sevastopol should henceforth be called “Theoderichshafen” ~ after the Gothic king! That was what he was concerned about!

At the end of 1943 Félkersam asked me to speak to Minister Rosenberg. Rosenberg was also of baltic origin and was Reich min- ister for the administration of the eastern territories. He was later burdened with all the errors and mistakes that Koch and others had committed there. At Nuremberg he was sentenced to death by hang- ing; his ashes were thrown into the Isar River. Félkersam and I pointed out to Rosenberg that the real reason behind the Russian partisan movement was none other than Koch himself: through “Com- missariat of the Central Ukraine” (Kiev, Dniepropetrovsk) he had drafted 200,000 industrial and 300,000 agricultural forced laborers for Germany! The German administration also showed little under- standing of the mentality of the people in the Baltic States. Rosenberg, was a man of good will. He asked us to report to him all the mistakes and errors we knew of, which we did. But unfortunately he was not a good organizer, and his book Myth of the Twentieth Century proved that he lacked any sense of reality

Otto Skorzeny, My Commando Operations, p. 369


So, all in all, Anti-Slavic sentiment may have been prevalent among a small clique of NS party members but i think most of them weren't. Even Walter Gross who was responsible for the Racial Policy of the Third Reich, never, at least to my knowledge classified the Slavs as non Aryans or told anyone about exterminating them. In my opinion, Germany would probably follow a Mitteleuropa geopolitical order after the war, where they would annex some Polish territories while Ukraine and other Eastern states would be economically and politically dependent on Germany but not annexed or under some kind of a gigantic Third Reich which occupies the whole of Europe and Russia. I don't also believe that crackheads like Himmler, would be taken seriously about any geopolitical and racial policies. It isn't valid from a scientific and racial point of view to consider the Slavs as subhumans and have maps that classify them as Aryans. I find this really controversial... That's why i make the point that people like Bormann didn't care about racial science but were more sentimental and their nationalist feelings and the Slavic - Russian "boogeyman", as well as the social and financial state of the Slavs made them hate Eastern Europeans, but would not go as far as to kill them and replace them with Germans and stuff like that. Also as far as i know, Hitler's Anti-Slavic sentiment was mostly against the Poles, again for historical and ethnic reasons. If you read Goebbel's accounts when Hitler rants about the Poles, he gets entirely sentimental and out of his normal cold logic rhetoric.

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Re: Proof of the so called General Plan Ost ?

Postby Hektor » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Wed Feb 15, 2023 12:32 pm)

Don't forget that the Slovaks, Bulgarians, etc. were all on the Axis side. That there may have been resentment against Slavs occassionally won't surprise me neither. That possibly relates to the beef between Poles and Germans or Czechs and Germans and to experiences during World War One... which had panslavist undertones to it. So it's conflict based, not based in anthropology as such. NS-leadership figures made millions of statements during the era. So if you skim that, you probably will find negative statements about Slavs, if you look hard enough. The same applies to terms like 'Herrenmensch' (Master Race isn't even a German word). What that actually relates to is that archaeological discovery demonstrated that the upper echelons in most society had different features from the lower classes of those societies. Striking examples for this were skull shapes with the broader/shorter skulls more prevalent among the lower classes of them. But this is virtually the same among all Indogermanic people Germanic, Celtic, Slavic... It doesn't matter. And that was generally accepted at the time. Not only among NS. NS only dared to mention that heredity/race did play a major role in history, but it wasn't their discovery and it didn't play that big a role than people were made to believe. It is however true that Bormann, Himmler and some SS members may have been more pushy with this. This was however rejected as 'going to far' by others.

The agitation against NS-Germany was far more obsessed with the racial subject than NS-publications were. And this culminated in Nuremberg during the trials. It has dominated debates ever after.

Hitler wasn't specifically anti-Polish. In fact he appreciated Josef Pilsudski. Found it sad that it had to come to the conflict in 1939. He also acknowledged prior to the war that the Poles had legitimate interest in having access to the Baltic Sea. That he wasn't too happy about the Poles after the affair unfolded to a world war is however understandable.

A problem are third party accounts on others. There is always the problem of selectivity and projecting things in what has actually been said. So I'm not too trusting, when it comes to accounts that Goebbels and Bormann may have given on things Hitler allegedly said. That they may have said things at the dinner table they won't say in public in the same way is however possible.

Relating to Slavs and more... One should have a look on NS-Publications on their Policies towards Eastern Europe prior to WW2. They were 6 years in power. What did they actually say about Eastern Europe. Now if you belief the mainstream-account, you'd expect really nefarious statements being made... But I yet have to see one. And even if there are some... that isn't necessarily a good representation on the overall statements being made.

Here is a NS-book:
https://archive.org/details/EuropasSchicksalImOsten


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