Katyn at Nuremberg

[Hebden]

Hannover wrote:
The court in this case again evaded responsibility by simply accepting the evasive maneuvers of Nuremberg.

At Nuremberg, the charter stated that the court was "not bound by technical rules of evidence". All allegations by the Allies were considered factual with no proof having been established. That's what's called a 'show trial'.

What about the allegations that the Germans were responsible for Katyn? If the court considered them factual, why did they not appear in the verdict?

[Temporary on hold]

Hebden, my advice would be not to quibble about criticisms of the Nuremberg trials. No matter what one's views of the defendants, if you examine the trials as judicial proceedings it is more and more clear that they were not reliable sources for getting at the truth of the matters charged but were more in the direction of "show trials" as has been alleged.

Certainly the US judicial system would never countenance some of the shenanigans which took place such as the acceptance of any "government report" of the victors as truthful evidence even to the point of "judicial notice" and the limitations placed on defense counsel among many other faults. At the time some courageous US judicial figures, no German sympathizers, called these trials what they were - "kangaroo courts". And it took courage to say it then.

It was the American and British leaders with their pharisaical desire to give the matter the appearance of justice who created the problem. The evil communists, not so worried about appearances, would have killed the German defendants out of hand. They went along cynically and produced plenty of false "government reports" without a qualm since that seemed to be what was wanted. "Jewish soap", Katyn massacre, whatever it took. Lies for "desirable" political ends were their stock in trade. Many of the other participants were pharisees but even they didn't believe all the stories! That's why the trials had to be kept away from such things. Despite the severe handicaps imposed on the defense, it could have been embarassing and slowed things down.

So go easy on Nuremberg in making your case. As justice it stinks more profoundly as time goes by.

[Hannover]

Hebden asks about Nuremberg and the false belief that the Germans were responsible for shooting thousands of Poles at Katyn forest.

The German 'guilt' for the killing of thousands of Polish officers in the Katyn forest near Smolensk was similarly confirmed by Nuremberg document USSR-54.
This detailed report by yet another Soviet "investigative" commission was submitted as proof for the charge made in the joint indictment of the four Allied governments. As a Soviet prosecutor explained: "We find, in the Indictment, one of the most important criminal acts for which the major war criminals are responsible was the mass execution of Polish prisoners of war shot in the Katyn forest near Smolensk by the German fascist invaders." (note 44) (Interestingly, two of the eight members of the Soviet Katyn Commission were also members of the Soviet Auschwitz commission: Academician N. Burdenko and Metropolitan Nikolai.)

It wasn't until 1990 that the Soviet government finally acknowledged that the Katyn massacre was carried out, not by a German unit, as "proven" at Nuremberg, but by the Soviet secret police.

- ‘New York Times’, April 13 and 14, 1990.

Also, Germans were actually executed after Show Trials by the Allies. In November 1945, seven officers of the German Wehrmacht:

K.H. Strueffling, H.Remlinger, E. Böhom, E. Sommerfeld, H. Jannike, E. Skotki and E.Geherer

were tried by a court of the victorious allies, the Americans, the English, the French and the Russians. They were condemned to death for war crimes and subsequently hanged.
Three more were tried on the same charges:

E.P. Vogel, F. Wiese, A. Diere

received sentences of 20 years of hard labor, were turned over to the Russians and never heard of again.

for more:
http://www.codoh.com/trials/trikatyn.html

- Hannover

[Hebden]

Hebden asks about Nuremberg and the false belief that the Germans were responsible for shooting thousands of Poles at Katyn forest.

The German 'guilt' for the killing of thousands of Polish officers in the Katyn forest near Smolensk was similarly confirmed by Nuremberg document USSR-54.
This detailed report by yet another Soviet "investigative" commission was submitted as proof for the charge made in the joint indictment of the four Allied governments. As a Soviet prosecutor explained: "We find, in the Indictment, one of the most important criminal acts for which the major war criminals are responsible was the mass execution of Polish prisoners of war shot in the Katyn forest near Smolensk by the German fascist invaders." (note 44) (Interestingly, two of the eight members of the Soviet Katyn Commission were also members of the Soviet Auschwitz commission: Academician N. Burdenko and Metropolitan Nikolai.)

It wasn't until 1990 that the Soviet government finally acknowledged that the Katyn massacre was carried out, not by a German unit, as "proven" at Nuremberg, but by the Soviet secret police.

- ‘New York Times’, April 13 and 14, 1990.

Yes, submitted as proof. Now, if the court accepted all evidence from the prosecutors without question, as you stated, where is Katyn referred to in the verdicts passed by the IMT or NMT? We challenge you to produce the relevant text.

Also, Germans were actually executed after Show Trials by the Allies. In November 1945, seven officers of the German Wehrmacht:

K.H. Strueffling, H.Remlinger, E. Böhom, E. Sommerfeld, H. Jannike, E. Skotki and E.Geherer

were tried by a court of the victorious allies, the Americans, the English, the French and the Russians. They were condemned to death for war crimes and subsequently hanged.
Three more were tried on the same charges:

E.P. Vogel, F. Wiese, A. Diere

received sentences of 20 years of hard labor, were turned over to the Russians and never heard of again.

Very interesting. Please inform us where this court sat, under what jurisdiction it operated, and, finally, we want the names of the English, French and American prosecutors and judges who took part. Consider that another challenge.

Incidentally, you omitted to give credit to your source:

http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/Katyn/KatynHanged.html

[Hannover]

As stated, phony Nuremberg document USSR-54 was submitted, accepted, and NOT challenged by the court even though it was a fraud.

In regards to details of the trial, I suggest contacting the source of the letter which states the names of the falsely executed men given in my post. Thanks to Hebden himself for providing the link.
source:

H. Famira
Professor of German
Concordia University
Montreal

I do challenge Hebden to show me where Nuremberg refused to accept this phony document that we all know is fraudulent. That point demonstrates the corruption of Nuremberg and the Show Trial nature of the proceedings.

Again for our readers, I suggest this link about this communist fraud. See where a phony document was produced with "eyewitness" testimony, the works...quite pathetic:
http://www.codoh.com/trials/trikatyn.html

- Hannover

[Moderator]

Hebden:

This is your last warning, and there have been many.

Your posts are often off topic, you dodge specific questions, and you have now started to harass posters --- hence the reason for deletion of your last post here.

I'm tired of your obvious disruptions of the Forum. Perhaps alt.revisionism or the Third Reich Forum is a more suitable environment for your posts. There will be no further warnings.

Moderator

[widukind]

The whole affair is aptly summarized by Butz in his "Hoax of the 20th Century", pp. 189-191 of the online version:

The tribunal's final disposition of the Katyn issue was a disgrace even independent of the true facts concerning the atrocity: it was quietly dropped and does not appear in the judgment. The Germans were not "found" either guilty or not guilty of this Russian atrocity. The IMT ducked the whole matter.

Following article 21 of the Charter, the IMT prosecution allowed the Soviets to submit their phony evidence against the Nazis, although they perfectly knew that the Soviets were responsible of that crime. [The Germans had published in 1943 a white book on their forensic investigations, and the discoveries were widely publicized by German propaganda.] To have done otherwise would have cast doubt on other evidence submitted by the Soviets and, by extension, on the whole set of principles governing the IMT procedures. To quote Butz :

In 1952 the US House of Representatives investigated the Katyn massacre and naturally made an inquiry into what had happened at the IMT in this respect. The Select Committee set up for this purpose accordingly held some hearings in Frankfurt, Germany in April of that year. (...)

The New York Times reported that the tone of the Frankfurt hearing was such that "the principles governing the trial procedure in Nuremberg were being questioned. United States officials at the hearing privately expressed concern over the situation." The Chicago Tribune reported that, at a secret session the night before the public hearing in Frankfurt, Kempner had admitted that the US prosecution staff at the IMT had possessed evidence showing that the Russians had committed the Katyn murders.

The Select Committee on the Katyn Forest massacre concluded that the US government had suppressed the truth about Katyn both during and immediately after the war. In particular, a report by Lt. Col. John H. Van Vliet, Jr., one of the American POW's who had witnessed the mass graves," later disappeared from either Army or State Department files." It was also found that the Federal Communications had intimidated radio stations in order to suppress criticism of the Russians.

[Hannover]

Thanks for Butz's materials.

While Professor Famira does not say in his letter, it is obvious that the trial he refers to was conducted outside of the Nuremberg framework.

It is also obvious that Nuremberg accepted the phony Russian document and the judgement made at that Show Trial.

Another of the endless scandals at Nuremberg.

- Hannover

[Hebden]

The whole affair is aptly summarized by Butz in his "Hoax of the 20th Century", pp. 189-191 of the online version:

The tribunal's final disposition of the Katyn issue was a disgrace even independent of the true facts concerning the atrocity: it was quietly dropped and does not appear in the judgment. The Germans were not "found" either guilty or not guilty of this Russian atrocity. The IMT ducked the whole matter.

Those were the words we wanted to hear. We are indebted to Mr. Widukind for proving our point.

[Hannover]

What Hebden failed to address was the fact that Nuremberg accepted a phony document that falsely 'proved' German guilt and a judgement that cost the lives of innocent men.

Such is the 'holocau$t'.

- Hannover

[widukind]

Whether the Katyn atrocity figured in the IMT judgments or not is irrelevant: the Allies not only made no attempt to exonerate the Germans of this crime, but they actually acted as if they did believe the Germans were responsible, for many years after the war :

But the oddest manifestation of this historical falsehood was in Britain. For very nearly all of these 60 years, it has been Foreign Office policy to assert that the Germans were, indeed, responsible for the Katyn massacres, and for the attempt to destroy the greater part of Poland's traditional ruling class, the cream of Polish society.

Auberon Waugh, A lost Generation, The Daily Telegraph, London, April 21, 2000. http://www.focal.org/online/DTel/240400.html

[Dan]

Also, Germans were actually executed after Show Trials by the Allies. In November 1945, seven officers of the German Wehrmacht:

K.H. Strueffling, H.Remlinger, E. Böhom, E. Sommerfeld, H. Jannike, E. Skotki and E.Geherer

were tried by a court of the victorious allies, the Americans, the English, the French and the Russians. They were condemned to death for war crimes and subsequently hanged.
Three more were tried on the same charges:

E.P. Vogel, F. Wiese, A. Diere

received sentences of 20 years of hard labor, were turned over to the Russians and never heard of again.

I think someone just made that up. The Soviets wanted to try the Germans for Katyn, but the allies knew all along that the soviets had done it. There were some behind the scenes fights, and the Western allied told the Soviets that the Germans would be able to produce all the evidence they wanted, and the Soviets backed down.

There were no Germans found guilty by the IMT for Katyn. This is prue bullshit.

I believe that there was a seperate Russian trial where Germans were tried and convicted, but while I beleive this, I've never seen proof, just a bunch of allegtions. One of the big guns of the Holohoax, Charles Bunch, has gone into e-print saying that there is no proof that Germans were executed by the Soviets for Katyn, he calls it a typical Denier canard, so I would dearly love to see some proof for it.

There was a French scandel about 10 years ago when an official said that the Soviets were responsibe for Katyn. The French antiFreespeech law, the Loi Gayssot, only makes it a crime to challenge the IMT or French tribunals, so you can question Katyn legally in France.

[Dan]

Also, Germans were actually executed after Show Trials by the Allies. In November 1945, seven officers of the German Wehrmacht:

K.H. Strueffling, H.Remlinger, E. Böhom, E. Sommerfeld, H. Jannike, E. Skotki and E.Geherer

were tried by a court of the victorious allies, the Americans, the English, the French and the Russians. They were condemned to death for war crimes and subsequently hanged.
Three more were tried on the same charges:

E.P. Vogel, F. Wiese, A. Diere

received sentences of 20 years of hard labor, were turned over to the Russians and never heard of again.

Just for clarity, are you saying that these people were tried for Katyn by the 4 allies? If so, this is increadably wrong. If not, then why is it in a post about Katyn? It would be misleading at best.

[Hannover]

Hi Dan:

The source for my information on the trial and the names of those executed is:
H. Famira
Professor of German
Concordia University
Montreal

Contact him and see what you get.

No one said the Germans were tried at Nuremberg. However, German guilt was accepted at Nuremberg and there was a phoney, detailed Soviet document placed in the Nuremberg record...USSR-54. Nuremberg bought it.
The trial was apparently outside of the Nuremberg framework....as I posted earlier. I assume it was a Soviet trial, and judging by Professor Famira's letter, Allies were in attendance. Again, check with him.

you said:

I believe that there was a seperate Russian trial where Germans were tried and convicted, but while I beleive this, I've never seen proof, just a bunch of allegtions. One of the big guns of the Holohoax, Charles Bunch, has gone into e-print saying that there is no proof that Germans were executed by the Soviets for Katyn, he calls it a typical Denier canard, so I would dearly love to see some proof for it.

You are right to assume there was a trial by the Soviets. Even without Professor Famira's letter, the Soviets are well known for conducting Show Trials; think absurd gas chambers Show Trials, laughable gas vans Show Trials, etc. It would be at odds with the Communist norm to think there was no Show Trial in the case of Katyn.

Charles Bunch, never heard of him. Too bad this "big gun" doesn't post here. He would certainly be shown the error of his ways, as is the case with them all when they can't engage in namecalling, subject changing, and dodging.

- Hannover

[Scott]

Hmmm, USSR-54, I'll have to add that to my kit of demonstrable Nuremberg lies along with USSR-393, the Human Soap sample, to hit Chuckoo with the next time I see him.


Thanks!