Friedlander:"20-25 million Germans knew about the holocaust"

[Lamprecht]

I've heard the excuse a lot: "I don't need to show you mass graves at Treblinka II, we have mass graves from other sites so it's reasonable to think that they exist there as well"

So there is mass graves now?

There are plenty of photos from the end of the war claiming to show mass graves at sites like Bergen Belsen or cremated human remains at Majdanek (where revisionists estimate over 40 thousand deaths). None of the pits is inconsistent with the revisionist position of these camps not being for extermination.
Piles of corpses who died at the end of the war from disease and starvation are always used as proof of a "Holocaust" despite doing no such thing.

[Hannover]

Lamprecht:

There are plenty of photos from the end of the war claiming to show mass graves at sites like Bergen Belsen or cremated human remains at Majdanek (where revisionists estimate over 40 thousand deaths). None of the pits is inconsistent with the revisionist position of these camps not being for extermination.
Piles of corpses who died at the end of the war from disease and starvation are always used as proof of a "Holocaust" despite doing no such thing.

Can you please show us the alleged remains of the mentioned "40,000" at Majdanek?

Thanks, Hannover

[Lamprecht]

Lamprecht:

There are plenty of photos from the end of the war claiming to show mass graves at sites like Bergen Belsen or cremated human remains at Majdanek (where revisionists estimate over 40 thousand deaths). None of the pits is inconsistent with the revisionist position of these camps not being for extermination.
Piles of corpses who died at the end of the war from disease and starvation are always used as proof of a "Holocaust" despite doing no such thing.

Can you please show us the alleged remains of the mentioned "40,000" at Majdanek?

Thanks, Hannover

There are some photos of human remains claimed to be from Majdanek. Actually there are more attributed to Majdanek than any other so-called "extermination camp"

The "over 40,000" figure (actually, 42,200 is the number) is taken from Mattogno at the bottom of this post:
Re: The Known Death Totals at German Camps
viewtopic.php?p=93109#p93109

Yet Germar Rudolf here gives the figure of 8,831 "documented deaths" for Majdanek: http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndstats.html
However he states these are only the official documented deaths by the ICRC's Special Office in Arolsen, and not the total deaths.

In the book on Majdanek by Graf and Mattogno it says:

"In view of all those facts it appears to be a valid assumption that the true number of deaths at Majdanek could lie somewhere between the number of 42,200 calculated by Mattogno and the number of 49,625 which remains if the invented gassing and shooting victims are subtracted from the figures given by Kranz."

- Jürgen Graf, Carlo Mattogno: Concentration Camp Majdanek—A Historical and Technical Study,
p. 272, https://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/05-ccm.pdf

HC Blog has a bunch of photos claiming to be of human remains at Majdanek: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... odies.html

Since the source in every case is the USSR and Majdanek was the first major camp "liberated" during the war and thus subject to an immense onslaught of propaganda, the photos are inconclusive. And no attempt at excavating the camp has ever been made as far as I know. The death toll estimates for Majdanek were not reached by analysis of any mass graves but from documents.

Chapter #4 of the book linked above deals with the mortality rate. Mattogno and Graf write that there were serious issues with sanitary conditions at the camp, it was a hassle to get the camp connected to the municipal water supply at Lublin. Disease was rampant at various periods of its existence. On page 60, they write:

"The decisive factor which made Majdanek the worst of all the National Socialist concentration camps, at least part of the time, was probably neither the mistreatment of inmates–the scale and scope of which cannot be determined–nor the executions, which of course also took place in other camps. Rather it was the sanitary conditions, which were dreadful until early 1943 and still very bad from that time until autumn of the same year, and which inevitably triggered epidemics and thus the incredibly high mortality rate in the Lublin camp. This too was a result of the ‘temporary nature’ of this camp: as we have seen, Majdanek’s connection to the municipal sewer system of Lublin was greatly delayed by squabbling among various authorities, and carried out at a snail’s pace even once it had finally been decided upon."

[Hannover]

said:

In the book on Majdanek by Graf and Mattogno it says:

"In view of all those facts it appears to be a valid assumption that the true number of deaths at Majdanek could lie somewhere between the number of 42,200 calculated by Mattogno and the number of 49,625 which remains if the invented gassing and shooting victims are subtracted from the figures given by Kranz."

Except there are no 42,000 - 49,000 human remains to fit that claim.
Human remains do not just disappear.

Looks like an example of throwing "The Industry" a bone without cause.

Indeed, this is beyond laughable, a few wartime corpses from who knows where supposedly equals the claim within the 'holocaust' storyline. LOL
https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... odies.html
Example, see their claims about Ponary demolished here:

Industry's Andrew Mathis & Roberto Muehlenkamp claim patch of dirt holds remains of 100,000 at Ponar, Lithuania
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11345

- Hannover

[Otium]

Since the source in every case is the USSR and Majdanek was the first major camp "liberated" during the war and thus subject to an immense onslaught of propaganda, the photos are inconclusive. And no attempt at excavating the camp has ever been made as far as I know. The death toll estimates for Majdanek were not reached by analysis of any mass graves but from documents.

Sounds more inconclusive than anything.

42,000 seems like an extrapolation taken together with other factors but no actual corpses or documents confirming such a toll. If there are documents confirming it I'm sure Rudolfs figure would be higher than 8,000 or so.

Sure it's possible, but is it true? I'm not convinced. Photos are worthless as proof, they serve no other purpose than to emotionally manipulate, the same way so-called ufo/ghost/alien videos are proof of the paranormal/extraterrestrials. The Holocaust and the evidence even here is so thin it's basically the same thing.

I would have to agree with Hannover

Looks like an example of throwing "The Industry" a bone without cause.

Even if there are good confounding factors to make the assumption about a figure as high as 42,000 I think it's still quite up in the air. I could be wrong of there's really good reason to. But like I said earlier, it's possible ; however I'd need to look more into this case.

But I'd just like to point out that a concession like this would never be given by the other side, just see how they've lied and tried everything they could to minimize Dresden and other Allies war crimes. These people couldn't give less of a fuck about integrity, they want their numbers to be huge and they don't care what lies or intimidation they use to do it.

[Lamprecht]

The Majdanek "official" death toll has been revised from over 1 million to now 78,000 and only a minority were supposedly gassed. If you remove the supposed gassed victims you are now basically at the figure Mattogno and Graf are at. There is no throwing any bones, the estimated death rate here is extrapolated multiple documents. It's all in the book, you could make a thread with better estimations if you want.

Rudolf's figure is only including those collected post-war, listing names of those who verifiably died in the camp, with documents to prove it. The documentation was found to be incomplete, but extrapolations were made based on them. The claimed death rate:

1941 (October – December): about 700
1942: 17,244
1943: 22,339
1944 (January- July): about 1,900
Total: about 42,200

Mattogno and Graf further point out that Majdanek had an exceptionally high death rate compared to other camps because it was a temporary camp and the sanitation was terrible since it was not permitted to be connected to the main water supply of the city for a very long time, and even after it was allowed to be connected it still took months to complete the project.

The people who died were almost exclusively killed by diseases. Back in this period of time, during wars often the main killer was disease, not bullets. Mattogno and Graf state in the book that some people with diseases like tuberculosis were brought from the Reich to Majdanek. The British started this war and refused Hitler's various peace proposals.

And this 40,000+ figure includes non-Jews also. Like I said it's not throwing any bones since the claim is that Jews were exterminated in homicidal gas chambers in a systematic policy of state-sponsored genocide, but that is not the case. The number is "Officially" now 78,000 total, yet many sources like Yad Vashem claim 360,000 Majdanek deaths. If we accept that the majority were Jews, we can estimate perhaps 30,000 Jewish deaths based on M&G's figures which means this number is inflated considerably.

The only point of bringing up Majdanek in the first place was that there are a lot of photos claiming to be of cremains or mass graves from this site. And people use that as "Evidence for the Holocaust" but even if you estimate 10,000 died there, or 20,000 died there instead of the 42 thousand figure, that would still result in mass graves. So how is it "Evidence for the Holocaust" if it is something we would expect regardless of which side we agree with?

Maybe if they show us a huge mass grave full of burnt remains the size of a school bus at Treblinka, that will actually conclusively refute the revisionist position:



The claim is at Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka 2 the burnt remains of 1.5 million gassed Jews is found in huge mass graves. If you ask to see evidence of this, just one pit with 0.01% of the alleged 1.5 million at any one of these 3 sites, you might be shown a half dozen pits with maybe 10-20 people maximum in them, which is not inconsistent with deaths from disease in transit to these camps. And these smaller numbers of humans to be found in these pits actually suggests that is what they were made for, rather than Jews who were burnt after being gassed by the thousands at one time.

And if they do not want to show you a pit from one of these 3 sites they will show pits or piles of cremains from other sites, especially Majdanek, and say "That's good enough, we can reasonably expect there are huge mass graves at T2+B+S because there are huge mass graves at Majdanek" etc.

It may seem ridiculous "logic" but I've experienced this line of argumentation a lot. And we are supposed to believe these people were gassed simply because "Mass graves were found close to a homicidal gas chamber" (no specific locations are ever given).

This entire thread is exposing the perhaps #1 tactic (at least top 5) of the exterminationists, which is the equivocation fallacy. The term "Holocaust" is consistently redefined to suit their argument. If you question the gas chambers or extermination policy or 6 million you are a "Holocaust" denier. But when they say "The Holocaust is the most documented genocide in history" they are not referring to any of these 3 points, but rather the collective claimed suffering of European Jew during WWII - the labor/internment camps, the ghettos, the deportations, jew badges on their shirts, etc.

It's a fallacious trick how they will just redefine "Holocaust" in whichever way suits their argument. That's how we can have one guy say 25 million Germans knew about the "Holocaust" whereas at Nuremberg it was claimed fewer than 100 knew anything about it.

Since the source in every case is the USSR and Majdanek was the first major camp "liberated" during the war and thus subject to an immense onslaught of propaganda, the photos are inconclusive. And no attempt at excavating the camp has ever been made as far as I know. The death toll estimates for Majdanek were not reached by analysis of any mass graves but from documents.

Sounds more inconclusive than anything.

42,000 seems like an extrapolation taken together with other factors but no actual corpses or documents confirming such a toll. If there are documents confirming it I'm sure Rudolfs figure would be higher than 8,000 or so.

Sure it's possible, but is it true? I'm not convinced. Photos are worthless as proof, they serve no other purpose than to emotionally manipulate, the same way so-called ufo/ghost/alien videos are proof of the paranormal/extraterrestrials. The Holocaust and the evidence even here is so thin it's basically the same thing.

I would have to agree with Hannover

Looks like an example of throwing "The Industry" a bone without cause.

Even if there are good confounding factors to make the assumption about a figure as high as 42,000 I think it's still quite up in the air. I could be wrong of there's really good reason to. But like I said earlier, it's possible ; however I'd need to look more into this case.

But I'd just like to point out that a concession like this would never be given by the other side, just see how they've lied and tried everything they could to minimize Dresden and other Allies war crimes. These people couldn't give less of a fuck about integrity, they want their numbers to be huge and they don't care what lies or intimidation they use to do it.

[Hannover]

Lamprecht:

Rudolf's figure is only including those collected post-war, listing names of those who verifiably died in the camp, with documents to prove it. The documentation was found to be incomplete, but extrapolations were made based on them.

Are the documents available for review?
When I see "post-war" I see a red flag.

Revisionists must apply the same rigorous standards in all their affairs. I have total respect for Graf, Mattogno, & Rudolf, indeed. But that doesn't mean we should accept their work without some review.

40,000 - 50,000 is a helluva lot of people, a small city. Yet we see claims that are based upon 'extrapolations from post war documents' that we do not see. Hmm.
Until I see hard proof for what Graf, Mattogno, & Rudolf assert all too quickly IMO, I'm calling their numbers unfounded.

I have shown that the "photos" heretofore posted are completely fake and notice we never see confirmed remains in situ nor any verifiable excavation. Yet we see a claim that there are tons of photos. That dog don't hunt.

Cheers, Hannover

[Lamprecht]

Rudolf's figure is from ICRC's Special Office in Arolsen, and he showed that in the case of Auschwitz, the records themselves show a higher number of deaths in a specific time period than what they provided, which was not a claim of total deaths just verified with names and all of that.

If there is criticism of Mattogno & Graf's treatment, I suggest a thread on the Majdanek death toll. I didn't read the entire section of their book I merely skimmed it.

The photos are what they are. Low quality, from the USSR, not verifiable and there has been no actual excavation. But my point anyway was that people use these photos as proof of some "Holocaust" when even if legitimate they don't contradict the revisionist position - even if you estimate 20,000 instead of 42,200 - just like piles of typhus victims at Bergen Belsen or Dachau do not prove any "Holocaust" because, as pointed out, revisionists accept that disease was rampant in these overcrowded camps in the final moments of the war.

[Otium]

I have shown that the "photos" heretofore posted are completely fake and notice we never see confirmed remains in situ nor any verifiable excavation. Yet we see a claim that there are tons of photos. That dog don't hunt.

Cheers, Hannover

The photos in the previous forum topic you posted (which is what I assume you're talking about) has many photos missing unfortunately. Dead links.

[Pia Kahn]

"20-25 million Germans knew about the holocaust"

Yet, it was a top secret operation and the Nazis systematically destroyed all the evidence, so they say!

Will they ever get their story straight?

[Otium]

And this 40,000+ figure includes non-Jews also. Like I said it's not throwing any bones since the claim is that Jews were exterminated in homicidal gas chambers in a systematic policy of state-sponsored genocide, but that is not the case. The number is "Officially" now 78,000 total, yet many sources like Yad Vashem claim 360,000 Majdanek deaths. If we accept that the majority were Jews, we can estimate perhaps 30,000 Jewish deaths based on M&G's figures which means this number is inflated considerably.

What other orthodox sources give you a 78,000 figure? 360,000 is quite a discrepancy for orthodox figures. If the 78,000 figure is simply what you get when you add additional gassing victims, then the rest are surely those that the revisionists estimated too. Does the rest of the figure get explained in the same way by the orthodox historians? How do they do it as opposed or in line with the revisionists?

Rudolf's figure is only including those collected post-war, listing names of those who verifiably died in the camp, with documents to prove it. The documentation was found to be incomplete, but extrapolations were made based on them. The claimed death rate:

1941 (October – December): about 700
1942: 17,244
1943: 22,339
1944 (January- July): about 1,900
Total: about 42,200

Mattogno and Graf further point out that Majdanek had an exceptionally high death rate compared to other camps because it was a temporary camp and the sanitation was terrible since it was not permitted to be connected to the main water supply of the city for a very long time, and even after it was allowed to be connected it still took months to complete the project.

The people who died were almost exclusively killed by diseases. Back in this period of time, during wars often the main killer was disease, not bullets. Mattogno and Graf state in the book that some people with diseases like tuberculosis were brought from the Reich to Majdanek. The British started this war and refused Hitler's various peace proposals.

Yes, all of this SOUNDS plausible, and I'll give it a read myself, I'm quite open to being wrong even though I don't feel comfortable saying one way or the other, however I do still feel sceptical of this figure.

The claim is at Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka 2 the burnt remains of 1.5 million gassed Jews is found in huge mass graves. If you ask to see evidence of this, just one pit with 0.01% of the alleged 1.5 million at any one of these 3 sites, you might be shown a half dozen pits with maybe 10-20 people maximum in them, which is not inconsistent with deaths from disease in transit to these camps. And these smaller numbers of humans to be found in these pits actually suggests that is what they were made for, rather than Jews who were burnt after being gassed by the thousands at one time.

And if they do not want to show you a pit from one of these 3 sites they will show pits or piles of cremains from other sites, especially Majdanek, and say "That's good enough, we can reasonably expect there are huge mass graves at T2+B+S because there are huge mass graves at Majdanek" etc.

It may seem ridiculous "logic" but I've experienced this line of argumentation a lot. And we are supposed to believe these people were gassed simply because "Mass graves were found close to a homicidal gas chamber" (no specific locations are ever given).

This entire thread is exposing the perhaps #1 tactic (at least top 5) of the exterminationists, which is the equivocation fallacy. The term "Holocaust" is consistently redefined to suit their argument. If you question the gas chambers or extermination policy or 6 million you are a "Holocaust" denier. But when they say "The Holocaust is the most documented genocide in history" they are not referring to any of these 3 points, but rather the collective claimed suffering of European Jew during WWII - the labor/internment camps, the ghettos, the deportations, jew badges on their shirts, etc.

It's a fallacious trick how they will just redefine "Holocaust" in whichever way suits their argument. That's how we can have one guy say 25 million Germans knew about the "Holocaust" whereas at Nuremberg it was claimed fewer than 100 knew anything about it.

I agree with you 100% on this. Very very well said. It might be very difficult for regular uninformed people to understand that it's really this ridiculous and comical. The evidence is so lacking and the narrative is so void of any credibility that it can only be "substantiated" by conspiritoral guesswork on the exterminationist side, giving double meanings to benign objects and extrapolating based on what Pressac called "criminal traces" which is like going outside and creating backstories for everyday objects assuming intent based on nothing but other assumptions you previously made, or unrelated actions that someone else took.

Even bodies at Treblinka wouldn't mean anything, again, like we all know there's no proof for any of it. Would Treblinka graves be a smoking gun? I don't think so. But everyone should be able to agree that by having graves of random 20 people, jews or not, isn't an excuse to proclaim the legitimacy of the Holocaust and a masterplan to genocide Jews for seemingly no reason, with no documents to back it up from anyone influential inside Germany besides offhand misrepresented quotes.

No allocation of funds, no resources, no planning, nothing at all.

[Lamprecht]

What other orthodox sources give you a 78,000 figure? 360,000 is quite a discrepancy for orthodox figures. If the 78,000 figure is simply what you get when you add additional gassing victims, then the rest are surely those that the revisionists estimated too. Does the rest of the figure get explained in the same way by the orthodox historians? How do they do it as opposed or in line with the revisionists?

The 78,000 figure is endorsed by HC Blog (who claims the sources arguing for hundreds of thousands are "outdated") as well as Wikipedia.

It's from Tomasz Kranz. More about it here:

On the Revision of the Number of Victims at Majdanek
https://codoh.com/library/document/965/

Also the Majdanek book by Mattogno and Graf.

Yes, all of this SOUNDS plausible, and I'll give it a read myself, I'm quite open to being wrong even though I don't feel comfortable saying one way or the other, however I do still feel sceptical of this figure.

It's not too important, the "Holocaust" is not merely a death total, but the claim of an extermination + homicidal gas chambers in the camps. The '6,000,000' number was around when over 1 million were claimed to have died at Majdanek, now it has been substantially reduced but the 6,000,000 number remains. Revisionists giving a figure that's more than half of the new "official" figure is not really agreeing with them at all, the hoaxters have simply been forced to adjust the numbers to be somewhat more realistic.

I agree with you 100% on this. Very very well said. It might be very difficult for regular uninformed people to understand that it's really this ridiculous and comical. The evidence is so lacking and the narrative is so void of any credibility that it can only be "substantiated" by conspiritoral guesswork on the exterminationist side, giving double meanings to benign objects and extrapolating based on what Pressac called "criminal traces" which is like going outside and creating backstories for everyday objects assuming intent based on nothing but other assumptions you previously made, or unrelated actions that someone else took.

Even bodies at Treblinka wouldn't mean anything, again, like we all know there's no proof for any of it. Would Treblinka graves be a smoking gun? I don't think so. But everyone should be able to agree that by having graves of random 20 people, jews or not, isn't an excuse to proclaim the legitimacy of the Holocaust and a masterplan to genocide Jews for seemingly no reason, with no documents to back it up from anyone influential inside Germany besides offhand misrepresented quotes.

No allocation of funds, no resources, no planning, nothing at all.

Yes, Treblinka mass graves being found on their own wouldn't prove the "Holocaust" (meaning, disprove "Holocaust denial") it would depend entirely on the size / quantity of remains. Random scattered pits with 10-20 or even 100 people's remains is predicted by the revisionist position, deaths in transit from disease and so forth. I am talking about enormous trenches the size of a bus filled with burnt remains. If such a thing was found and proven to exist at Treblinka, it would be inconsistent with revisionism (2-5% of transitees dying, rather than >99%) and support the claim that Treblinka had thousands of Jews [gassed and then] burned in giant outdoor pyres and then dumped into huge pits at the same time. I am talking of something like this:



Yet whenever someone claims to have gone to Treblinka and "proved the Holocaust" we never see anything of the sort. Recent thread: viewtopic.php?t=13050