NEW Considerations on Treblinka and the AR Camps

[Archie]

Iris,

Where are you going with all of this? I can't tell what you're trying say.

Well Archie, to begin, take a look at this:

hypothesis
noun

an assumption or concession made for the sake of argument

Now look at this:

Butterfangers:

The hypothesis being put forth is that the question of "where did Jews [sent to Treblinka II] go" is perhaps irrelevant (or less relevant) as it can be argued that a majority of them never arrived at TII in the first place... Many or most, it would seem, departed at various labor camps along the way... There were stops all along that route... The topic I have raised here is the question of, what proportion of Jews---of those sent out of the ghettoes onto a train with the final destination listed as "Treblinka"---actually ever made it to Treblinka II at all... I cannot prove where anyone did or did not disembark from the trains, I can only say that evidence strongly suggests many (if not most) of them disembarked before ever getting as far as Treblinka.

What PR and BF want to do here is ague their assumptions that are based on circumstantial evidence, but they want to present those as statements of fact. When challenged to clarify if their numerous statements of fact are in fact proven truths, they intentionally obfuscate and dodge. (Notice how they both (?) have the same habit of mixing in 'may" and "it would seem" and "possibly" and "one could argue" and "strongly suggests," etc. with their statements of fact.)

So "where I'm going with this" Archie, is to try and keep these two honest by keeping this discussion in the realm of honest and open debate and not let it devolve into an argument based on circumstantial evidence and assumptions. I want to establish a foundation of proven facts, but PR and BF are doing all they can to keep that foundation of truth from being built. Had they both been honest and didn't dodge so often, that foundation would have been built already. Why are they so afraid of establishing a foundation of proven facts? (Just look at all the simple questions that they both refuse to answer.)

Keep in mind, this is BF's OP:

Please pardon the "NEW" in the title if I have somehow missed that this topic is already being discussed elsewhere in the forum but it was definitely new to me and I want to ensure it is brought further into the Revisionist sphere of discussion as it seems like a critical advancement on the topic of Treblinka and the AR camps and the looming question of "where did they [Jews] go?".

They want to talk about "where did the jews go" but refuse to answer the simplest questions on the subject:

PR:

It is impossible to say how many Jews actually set foot inside the TII camp.

Iris:

PR, is it possible or impossible to say that at least one jew actually set foot inside the TII camp?

Again, if BF's own words:

The topic I have raised here is the question of, what proportion of Jews---of those sent out of the ghettoes onto a train with the final destination listed as "Treblinka"---actually ever made it to Treblinka II at all

In order to answer that question, we have to avoid assumptions and focus on facts - which is what I'm trying to do.

Archie:

With circumstantial evidence the issue is that it easily blends and blurs with innuendo type of pseudo-evidence.

And that is exactly what PR and BF are trying to do here.

As I understood the OP, the hypothesis that has been introduced here, let's call it the Nazgul hypothesis, is based on a new source of evidence that most of us are not familiar with, the train schedules that show that the trains to "Treblinka" stopped along the route at various locations coinciding with labor camps. A secondary point is that "Treblinka" does necessarily have to refer to Treblinka II, the supposed extermination camp.

Introducing a hypothesis is a good way to stimulate further research and to invite others to provide additional evidence that might corroborate or undermine the hypothesis.

From this thread, I gather that you strongly object to the Nazgul hypothesis, but the substance of your disagreement isn't clear. Based on the parts you highlighted, you seem annoyed that the language used in this thread was not entirely consistent because there were weaker terms (hypothesis, it would seem, etc) used in along with "strongly suggests," which is more definite. To me that is a fairly trivial objection. It's the sort of thing that an editor might point out before something gets published. Here on the forum, it's not something to get hung up on for seven pages.

If you have a strong disagreement with the Nazgul hypothesis, then you should write up a rebuttal where you raise specific objections and present the counterevidence. Then just post it and "drop the mic." No need for this, er, Socratic method or whatever it is you're trying to do.

[Archie]

I have not digested this entirely and have no firm stance on the points raised. I did read the OP and have seen some of the RODOH posts.

Here are a few preliminary thoughts that came to mind. If this is ever written up for Inconvenient History or some other outlet, these are some points that might be good to address.

1) The Jewish population of the General Government. The mainstream account is that in 1940 there would have been perhaps 2M Jews in the GG (most of the ~3M Polish Jews). By the end of the war this was much lower (with the caveat that the Polish borders changed during the war). Raul Hilberg gives a figure of 50,000 for post-war Poland. This is probably too low (he might be counting Polish DPs separately), but I don't think I've seen any estimates of more than a few hundred thousand. At any rate, we would appear to have a population drop of perhaps ~1.5M Jews from the GG that would need to be explained. My sense is that most revisionists have accepted the population drop and have said much of the remainder wound up further east. Hoax of the Twentieth Century, for example, remarks: "it would appear excessively brazen to claim the virtual disappearance of Polish Jewry, if such had not been essentially or approximately the case or if something like that had not happened." Probably the most direct challenge to this would be Walter Sanning whose book is focused entirely on demographics and, as I recall, argues for a somewhat lower starting population for Jews in Poland due to emigration, low birth rates, etc. Sanning probably represents the low estimate for population drop, although his assumptions could be questioned on numerous points (as is typical with demographic estimates).

It seems to me that the Nazgul hypothesis implies that the number of Jews in the GG (and in Poland more broadly) towards the end of the war would have been much higher than previously thought. Yes? And the population delta would be much lower than 1.5M? If so, I think the demographics will have be addressed in some way. That is to say if the inference drawn from these train schedules conflicts very sharply with the demographic estimates, then there would need to be some explanation for this.

2) It would be good to estimate the size of these camps and the total number of people that they might account for. Perhaps this has already been done? If it would only account for some tens of thousands, then the hoaxster side could concede the possibility of some unloading of passengers without the need to appreciably alter their narrative.

[PrudentRegret]

I don't think census data helps very much to establish that T-II itself was the destination for the large majority of the Jews on those transports.

[Archie]

I don't think census data helps very much to establish that T-II itself was the destination for the large majority of the Jews on those transports.

Yes, I agree. We have to look elsewhere for those details.

But I think the demographic data would be relevant to the broader matter of whether the people in question stayed in the General Government or were sent out further east.

[Prussian blue]

The fact is that, at present, there is only one rational explanation for why the trains stopped for extended periods at the locations of these labor camps, with trains full of laborers.

The stops of the returning empty trains had similar duration. What is your explanation for this? (Maybe this has already been answered, but this thread is like a train wreck.)

[Nazgul]

I don't think census data helps very much to establish that T-II itself was the destination for the large majority of the Jews on those transports.

Yes, I agree. We have to look elsewhere for those details.

But I think the demographic data would be relevant to the broader matter of whether the people in question stayed in the General Government or were sent out further east.

There are reports of people (Jews) being sent to Ostland/Ukraine and White Russia. Reports state that there were significant number of returnees to the various labour camps and konzentrationslager of the General Government. There are many reports of Jews being returned from Bobruysk, Kaiserwald, some ending up in Stutthof konzentrationslager. The ebb and flow of the labour camps is highly suggestive of this scenario, the camps in Ostland being dissolved with new ones commissioned further west. Interestingly much of this stuff that was easy to find in the web many years ago is hard to find. I had made posts on this trend in the last incarnation of RODOH but those posts are no longer accessible on the search engines. I will ask Scott if he can redo that forum from the last backup simply to retrieve information, as a data base. The work of Fritz Berg is also in there somewhere.

Here are the labour camps for Hungarian Jews in Austria. These do not change significantly during the duration of the war.

Hungarian labour camps for Jews Austria

On the left are die Zwangarbeitslager für Juden 1942 while the one on the right is the flow at 1945. One can clearly see the displacement of the labour camps from the General Government into the Reich proper.

1942

1945

From memory Butterfangers reproduced these at the start of this thread, with the intermediary years. I also think these camps indicate the demographic status. Of course more data would be nice.

The believers have created the scenario that Jews were "resettled" in the Russian East. Nessie has harped on about this for most of his Loch Life. Part of that comes from the translation in the Fahrplananordnung documents of statements similar to this:
Fplo 548:
Verkehrt bis auf weiteres taglich noch ein sonderzug mit umsiedlern von Warshau Danz bf nach treblinka Und leerzug zuruck wie folgt.

Umsiedlern simply means relocated, but translated as "resettled", a subtle but significant difference.
Significantly the statistician Korherr does not use the term "resettled" but the term "Evakuierung" or evacuation. With the war going the Germans way it was considered these Jews were not going to come back.

The Korherr report dated 23 March 1943 stated on page 7
V. THE EVACUATION OF THE JEWS

Transportation of Jews from the eastern Provinces to the Russian East: . . . . . . . . .1,449,692 Jews

the following numbers transited through the camps in the General Government . . . .1,274,166 Jews GHDI

Here is a map showing the general trend eastward in 1943 of the labour camps for Jews.

Sadly the 123 camps in Ostland/Ukraine are not on these maps.
I will reproduce this link again if someone gets the inspiration for cartographical experience. Jewish labour camps in the Russian East

In 1943 the war was going Germany's way, defeat was not considered. At the end of 1943 the defeat of the Reich seemed certain to many of the military leaders. In 1944 the Eastern Front was breached. The depletion of Jewish labour camps in the General Government is clearly seen in the image below. The Jews who survived the bitter cold of Kaiserwald, the typhus, lack of medicine and inadequate nutrition, the vagaries of war for all began their slow journey back to newly built camps where they were needed.

Labour camps for Jews 1944

Slightly off topic but it is noted that most of the so called murdering of Jews are in line with the euthanasia program, or Aktion 14f13.
Alex Cohen who was transported to Sobibor then to Lublin then to Skarzysko-Kamienna munitions factory said:

At Sobibor---Sick and disabled prisoners had already been hauled onto tippers and taken on a narrow gauge railway straight into the so-called Lager III. Sobibor Survivors

At Birkenau and elsewhere there were similar "selections". About 20 thousand were euthanized in this manner and not just Jews.

[Butterfangers]

1) The Jewish population of the General Government. The mainstream account is that in 1940 there would have been perhaps 2M Jews in the GG (most of the ~3M Polish Jews). By the end of the war this was much lower (with the caveat that the Polish borders changed during the war). Raul Hilberg gives a figure of 50,000 for post-war Poland. This is probably too low (he might be counting Polish DPs separately), but I don't think I've seen any estimates of more than a few hundred thousand. At any rate, we would appear to have a population drop of perhaps ~1.5M Jews from the GG that would need to be explained. My sense is that most revisionists have accepted the population drop and have said much of the remainder wound up further east. Hoax of the Twentieth Century, for example, remarks: "it would appear excessively brazen to claim the virtual disappearance of Polish Jewry, if such had not been essentially or approximately the case or if something like that had not happened." Probably the most direct challenge to this would be Walter Sanning whose book is focused entirely on demographics and, as I recall, argues for a somewhat lower starting population for Jews in Poland due to emigration, low birth rates, etc. Sanning probably represents the low estimate for population drop, although his assumptions could be questioned on numerous points (as is typical with demographic estimates).

It seems to me that the Nazgul hypothesis implies that the number of Jews in the GG (and in Poland more broadly) towards the end of the war would have been much higher than previously thought. Yes? And the population delta would be much lower than 1.5M? If so, I think the demographics will have be addressed in some way. That is to say if the inference drawn from these train schedules conflicts very sharply with the demographic estimates, then there would need to be some explanation for this.

2) It would be good to estimate the size of these camps and the total number of people that they might account for. Perhaps this has already been done? If it would only account for some tens of thousands, then the hoaxster side could concede the possibility of some unloading of passengers without the need to appreciably alter their narrative.

[EDIT: I just noticed that Nazgul has already responded to this, directly above. His response is better informed than mine, so I'd recommend deferring to his but am leaving mine here in case anyone meant to respond or quote, etc.]

These are excellent points. Indeed, to respond to (1), the demographics of Jews in the GG/Poland in the latter years need to be taken into consideration when analyzing the role and total population of the Zwangsarbeitslagers in the area. But also consider that Jews did not "stay put" as the war progressed. There was a lot of movement in the later war years, as shown in the maps in the OP (camps closing in one area, reopening in others, suggesting mass population movement). See here, the difference between '42 and '44. This suggests that not only were Jews potentially moving/transiting "further east" but also further west, as the war progressed.

All of the usual problems with demographic data needs also be factored in with the above in mind, such as the many Jews who weren't "countable" as such post-war (not identifying as Jewish), limited census data generally, etc.

I think at this point, we are still establishing the fundamentals/basics to understand exactly how these Zwangsarbeitslagers (labor camps) fit into the "bigger picture". As Nazgul mentioned, it's very new information, so still in its infancy in terms of understanding it all in-context.

That last point probably also responds to your point/question #2, Archie (regarding the total size of these labor camps). There is only one of these camps which I think there is a known estimate of inmate capacity on-record in the database linked in the OP, I think that is the Skarzysko-Kamienna camp which had up to 8,000 inmates at one point in time.

The stops of the returning empty trains had similar duration. What is your explanation for this? (Maybe this has already been answered, but this thread is like a train wreck.)

This is discussed in the RODOH thread. My understanding is that there is evidence (such as stop duration) that Jews were transferred between these camps going both ways. Presumably, based on labor or other operational/logistic needs. Some examples of Jews being transferred between these Zwangsarbeitslagers were provided earlier in this thread.

[Nazgul]

The fact is that, at present, there is only one rational explanation for why the trains stopped for extended periods at the locations of these labor camps, with trains full of laborers.

The stops of the returning empty trains had similar duration. What is your explanation for this? (Maybe this has already been answered, but this thread is like a train wreck.)

If one considers the waste of a train returning empty along the whole journey and the cost, this would be unlikely. The train left the final destination Treblinka empty but would most likely have been used to pick up goods and passengers from the same destination. Those destinations were major plants for making munitions. There is not enough information to suggest that the train arrived at Treblinka with all of the original wagons. Most likely at each stop, wagons would have been shunted off; this is what happens today and it certainly happened back in those days.
On the way back those wagons would have been reattached to the engine, probably with new occupants and goods. Evidence is presented of Jews and goods going both ways.

[Nazgul]

At any rate, we would appear to have a population drop of perhaps ~1.5M Jews from the GG that would need to be explained. My sense is that most revisionists have accepted the population drop and have said much of the remainder wound up further east.

The population drop I feel you are referring to can be explained in part due to the Jewish population included in the mass deportations of Poles by the Soviets before during and after the war.
When the Nazi-Soviet Nonaggression Pact was signed on August 23, 1939, Poland was essentially divided into two. The boundary was the Vistula river. Stalin ordered the deportation of huge numbers of Poles into the Depths of the Soviets Union. This happened in the Baltic states as well. In all about 1.9 million people were deported. This happened over many years.

One may take the time to work all this population transfer stuff out.

During 1939–1941, 1.45 million people inhabiting the region were deported by the Soviet regime. According to Polish historians, 63.1% of these people were Poles and 7.4% were Jews. link

If those figures are correct this would account for 107 300 Jews. In addition Yad Vashem says:

Additionally, about 300,000 Jewish refugees from German-occupied western Poland had fled to the Soviet Union after the war broke out Yad Vashem

These reports account for about 407 300 Jews.

What is often not taken into account is the natural mortality over the war years, when due to circumstances there was no significant Jewish birth rate to off set the mortality. Ashkenazi Jews have a number of congenital diseases, which without medication can be debilitating. link Ulios calculated the mortality from natural causes here. Out of the 9.2 million Jews in Europe at the time, 1.9 million would have perished from natural causes. The figures are based on the Philippine's mortality rates in 2017. The calculations show 21% of the population would decrease over a 7 year period if there was no significant birth rate. 21% of the mentioned 1.5 million is 210 000. Add the mortality to those deported by the Soviets and those who fled there is a significant 617 300 Jews that can be accounted for.

In addition there possibly were mass executions by the Einsatzgruppen. ( Partisans had tortured and murdered over a million soldiers of the Heer behind the eastern front. Any civilian combatant or those assisting were liable to summary execution under German law. ) There was disease. I cannot find it just now but there was a report about 500 Jewish kids who died of measles near the Kaiswerwald. Countless others died of typhus as evidenced at Bergen Belsen, Buchenwald and elsewhere.

[Butterfangers]

Leon “Poldek” Rytz

In my search for evidence of transports from TII to "forced labour camps for Jews" the exploits of Leon Rytz appeared.

Leon Rytz has outlived the "last survivor of Treblinka, "Sam Willenberg". Rytz like many Holocaust survivors, was imprisoned in several different Nazi camps, including Majdanek, Treblinka II, Buchenwald, and Bergen-Belsen.

After his capture in Warsaw, Rytz waited with hundreds of others for several days at the railway square for deportation. He was transported south, to the Majdanek camp, where he stayed for over a month. He was then again put onto a train and taken to Treblinka "death camp". At TII Rytz was separated by a friend of his fathers, a "Jozef Kaufman". Kaufman was Jew trusted by the commandant Stangl who "had him collect and deliver all valuables he found in the prisoners’ luggage and clothes to Franz Stangl every evening". Here is the story:

The Story

While packing the train cars one day, Kaufman pulled the guard on duty into one of the wagons, where he strangled him and took his bayonet. Kaufman pushed Rytz, along with another inmate, with him into another wagon filled with murdered inmates’ belongings, just before the train left the camp.
The three hid among the clothes as the train left Treblinka. Later, in seeing the approaching forest, Kaufman used the bayonet he had taken from the Ukrainian guard and opened the wagon’s lock. The three prisoners jumped from the moving train. Kaufman and Rytz ran into the woods; the third prisoner did not survive the fall.

After a few nights in the forest, the pair joined the Polish partisans, with whom they participated in different missions with the goal of blowing up railway lines and bridges.

‘After some days we received word that the partisans were planning to kill us, as they too did not like us Jews’

The pair escaped the partisans and tried to go towards Warsaw. Close to Warsaw, at Praga, they saw smoke in the distance. “The Poles told us that Warsaw was burning,” and they shifted course. They were soon captured again and taken to a forced labour camp in the German-occupied town of Skarżysko-Kamienna Hasag, about 150 kilometers (90 miles) south of Warsaw.


“At once I was taken to work at Werk C, where my task was to fill up missiles with trinitrotoluene. It was an extremely dangerous environment that caused the entire body to turn yellowish. Protective clothes were unthinkable, since the average survival time at this work was approximately three-four months,” writes Rytz.

Kaufman and Rytz quickly assessed their options and decided to attempt another escape, through a sewer, and also with a third prisoner.

“The spotlight fell on the first man who came out of the sewer pipe, and he was shot. As we came out, we raised our hands so we were captured and taken back to the camp,” writes Rytz.

The pair were ordered to stand on barrels for a full day in a spot where all inmates must pass, with a sign around their necks stating, “Due to an escape we are to be executed in the evening.”

Rytz relates that a woman several years older than him “approached an SS officer and offered him a diamond she had hidden in her shoe, if her ‘brothers’ were saved.” By a miracle they were saved.

In 1944, as the Russians encroached on Nazi-occupied territory, Rytz was transported to Czestochowa Hasag, and then to Germany, to the KZ Buchenwald camp. From Buchenwald, Leon was taken to Dora-Nordhausen Group Zawatski.

On the way to Buchenwald, Rytz was separated from his protector and companion, Kaufman, whom he never saw again. The train they were transported on was hit by Russian artillery. Half of the trainload of prisoners remained on the tracks and the rest were taken to Buchenwald.

In February 1945 Rytz was taken 300 kilometers away to Bergen-Belsen, where he was placed among the Russian prisoners of war. He ended up in Fallesleben where he was liberated by US forces
hot copper

This individual went to the following camps:

1. Majdanek
2. Treblinka II
3. Skarzysko-Kamienna
4. Częstochowa aka Tschenstochau
5. Buchenwald
6. Dora
7. Belsen
8. Fallesleben

The Treblinka escape appears to be an absolute fantasy but from there he ends up at the HASAG ammunition factory at Skarzysko.
Fahrplananordnung 587 list both Treblinka and Skarzysko. Both were the sites of Zwangarbeitslager für Juden.

Czestochowa aka Tschenstochau is also a place he visited. Czestochowa was the location of 7 Zwangarbeitslager für Juden, all HASAG munitions factories, most in commission until late war. Tschenstochau is mentioned on Fahrplananordnung 587 as well. I have reproduce Fplo 587 below with the names highlighted.

Fplo 587

On Fplo 567 Czestochowa aka Tschenstochau is the starting point of the transport.

---

This story of miraculous escapes, diamonds and death is appears to be a combination of fact interspersed with some cattle excrement. Taking out the miraculous escapes, what we have is a man, a Jew who worked at various Zwangarbeitslager, including Treblinka II.

It would be highly unlikely one could murder an SS guard and not be caught in that region.

It is highly likely that Rytz boarded a train as part of a normal transport for labour allocations to travel to the HASAG factory at Skarzysko-Kamienna, then again a short while later to another HASAG factory where his skills were needed at Czestochowa. To me this is strong evidence of the relocation of Jews from Treblinka to other labour camps. I have given evidence of Jews being transited out of Treblinka to konzentrationslager here

Due to the massive disinformation surrounding Treblinka Rytz would have little choice but to fabricate the escape story he did. He would have known the truth about Treblinka but had little choice but to be frugal with the historical realities. Rytz knew the conditions at Skarzysko and the poisoning by TNT; this happened in the UK as well, the workers called "canaries" due to the yellow colour after being poisoned.

He wanted to tell his story of his journey through those years and in a way forced to deflect from telling the whole truth. To do so would attract extreme unwanted attention from other Jews and the global media.

I just wanted to quote-post the above from Nazgul which got lost in the flame-war on earlier pages (apologies, Nazgul). It's an interesting observation regarding the testimony of one Jewish prisoner, Leon Rytz who set foot in a few camps of interest.

[Butterfangers]

Sadly the 123 camps in Ostland/Ukraine are not on these maps.
I will reproduce this link again if someone gets the inspiration for cartographical experience. Jewish labour camps in the Russian East

I am not sure when/if I will find time to plot any of this out but it looks like this would not be terribly difficult to do. I went through the first several on the list and Google Maps does not seem to have much trouble finding them (it even auto-corrected the spelling to match whatever it has). The only one of the first six which it could not find was "Bisa [or Misa]" which the list acknowledges is an unknown location. The others were all easily located:

[Nazgul]

It's an interesting observation regarding the testimony of one Jewish prisoner, Leon Rytz who set foot in a few camps of interest.

I found it too much of a coincidence that this person ended up by accident at two HASAG Zwangarbeitslager für Juden that also happen to be on the same Kplo document.

After I wrote the above "Prussian Blue" indicated that the Fplo document stated the trains returned empty and the stops were for similar times. Here is the wording on Fplo 548
"Und leerzug zuruck wie folgt" (And empty train back as follows).

I would find it surprising if a train returns empty, devoid of goods and passengers. As the stopping destination was "Treblinka" railway station I will refer you to Fplo 587, which I will reproduce again below:

In the first schedule the arrival at Treblinka was 11.24 departing at 15.59. 4 hours 35 minutes.
It is known that another smaller engine shunted wagons down the spur track from the railway station to the Treblinka camps.
As everyone knows "Arbeitslager Treblinka 1" is associated with the quarry, Treblinka II the Judenlager was just north of the same quarry. The stones were used for roads. There is currently no known documents of people or stones leaving that camp yet they must have.

Rytz tells us that the trains did not return empty but were filled with clothes. Prudent Regret has done enormous work in establishing the purpose of Aktion Reinhardt, named after Fritz Reinhardt the State Secretary in the German Finance Ministry. He was also in charge of the Zollgrenzschutz (Customs), which had offices in Malkinia, Wlodawa near Sobibor and Belzec.

In the Rytz story, Kaufman, whom Rytz describes as “a big strong man,” was tasked with loading clothes onto the emptied trains’ wagons."

Testimony of people like Leon Rytz can help fill in the gaps.

[Butterfangers]

Alright folks, I've been working, I hope you find this helpful. I mapped out the 123 Zwangarbeitslagers in Ostland/Ukraine (save those few for which a location is not yet known). I cannot guarantee 100% accuracy but between Google and my own patience in trying to get it right, I think I came pretty close in most cases.

Here is the interactive/zoomable map:

https://www.mapcustomizer.com/map/Zwang ... andUkraine

And here is a snapshot:

The locations with multiple camps in the same city or area are shown with green markers.

I also included the camp ID as shown on the http://www.deutschland-ein-denkmal.de site (these IDs are also in the PDF shared by Nazgul, earlier) and any other information in the description for each plotted point.

Here is that PDF again, it's a helpful reference when reading the map: https://pdfhost.io/v/t8wvILlbU_balticstateselarukrain

Below, I will include exactly what I entered into the website linked above so that anyone wishing to make changes and produce their own map may do so. You first go to https://www.mapcustomizer.com/ then click on "Bulk Entry" (top-right), then if you need clarification to make changes you may click the "how to format the locations" link. Otherwise, to get the same points plotted as those in the map I created and shared in the first link above (including the descriptions and green markers where applicable), you would enter the following:

Aseri, Estonia {4031}
Bačiūnai, Lithuania {4056, 4057} <green>
Baranovichi, Belarus {4109, 4108, 4110} <green>
Baltoji Vokė, Lithuania {4058, 4059} <green>
Misa, Latvia {4153, 4152, 4039 -- 4032 and 4147 are Bisa, "presumably Misa"} <green>
Babruysk, Belarus {4111}
Barysaw, Belarus {4112, 4113} <green>
Kmeliauka, Lithuania {4138}
Daugavpils, Latvia {4033, 4148} <green>
Daugėliai, Lithuania {4060}
Dimitravas, Lithuania {4061}
Staniūnai, Lithuania {4062}
Dūkštas, Lithuania {4063}
Sankt-Peterburg, Russia {4114, 4115; Dworez, exact location unclear} <green>
Gavieze, Latvia {4149, 4034} <green>
Hantsavichy, Belarus {4116}
Vievis, Lithuania {4067, 4068} <green>
Zaozernoe, Russia {4066, 4065} <green>
Kalēti, Latvia {4036, 4150} <green>
Kazlų Rūda, Lithuania {4069, 4070} <green>
Kärstna, Estonia {4037}
Kniahinin, Belarus {4118, 4117} <green>
Baranovichi, Belarus {4120, 4119; Koldychevo, mapped as Baranovichi for nearest mappable area} <green>
Kostopil', Rivne Oblast, Ukraine {4139}
Krasnoye, Belarus {4121}
Kūdupe, Latvia {4151, 4038} <green>
Kudłaczewo, 19-222, Poland {4122}
Lida, Belarus {4123}
Linkaiciai, Lithuania {4072, 4073} <green>
Lutsk, Volyn Oblast, Ukraine {4140}
Linkmenys, Lithuania {4074}
Staniūnai, Lithuania {4076, 4075} <green>
Minsk, Belarus {4125, 4124} <green>
Mogilev, Belarus {4126, 4127} <green>
Mokrovo, Belarus {4041, 4040} <green>
Nemenčinė, Lithuania {4077}
Navahrudak, Belarus {4129, 4128} <green>
Świerżeń Nowy, Belarus {4130, 4131} <green>
Kirkkonummi, Finland {4042; Oivari, mapped as Kirkkonummi for nearest mappable area}
Akmenė, Lithuania {4078}
Valkininkai, Lithuania {4079}
Orany, Ukraine {4080}
Palemonas, Kaunas, Lithuania {4081, 4082} <green>
Pavenčiai, Kuršėnai, Lithuania {4083}
Jelonka, Poland {4141; est. location of Pereweredow but uncertain}
Pechory, Pskov Oblast, Russia {4043, 4044} <green>
Pskov, Pskov Oblast, Russia {4045, 4046} <green>
Pabradė, Lithuania {4084}
Panevėžys, Lithuania {4087, 4086} <green>
Vilnius International Airport {4088; Porubanek est. location}
Puski, Estonia {4047}
Pravieniškės, Lithuania {4090, 4089} <green>
Prienai, Prienai District Municipality, Lithuania {4091}
Radaškovičy, Belarus {4132, 4133} <green>
Radviliškis, Lithuania {4092}
Rakvere, Estonia {4053}
Tallinn, Estonia {4048}
Roja, Latvia {4154, 4049} <green>
Riešė, Vilnius District Municipality, Lithuania {4094, 4095} <green>
Saku, Estonia {4050}
Žiežmariai, Lithuania {4097, 4096} <green>
Slonim, Belarus {4134}
Smolensk, Smolensk Oblast, Russia {4135, 4142, 4143; includes Smolno} <green>
Smordva, Rivne Oblast, Ukraine, 35160 {4144}
Sonda, Estonia {4051}
Suchowola, Poland {4145}
Zemgale, Rīga, Latvia {4155, 4052} <green>
Troki, Belarus {4098}
Уша, Belarus {4136}
Vilnius, Lithuania {4103, 4101, 4102, 4100; includes Wieliczany with its precise location unknown} <green>
Viduklė, Lithuania {4099}
Vinnytsia, Vinnytsia Oblast, Ukraine, 21000 {4146}
Kohtla-Järve, Estonia {4054, 4055; Wiwikond} <green>
Užtilčiai, Lithuania {4106; Zaczepka}
Zokniai, Lithuania {4107}
Brest, Belarus {4137}

Also, I took some notes as I was putting all of this together. If anyone would like to set out to further confirm or verify the locations I have plotted here, this information may be helpful. It is more or less just my "chicken scratch"... much of it just keeping notes as I learned which locations Google "recommended" as I entered each of the listed names, then trying to find evidence for where they were actually supposed to be. Do note those camps which are shown as "NOT FOUND" (i.e. I just couldn't find it) or "NOT KNOWN" (meaning the site that put all this together couldn't find it either)... some of you might be able to assist with locating these, perhaps?:

Borisow = Barysaw

Biala Waka = Baltoji Voke

Chmielówka / Chmielewka = Kmeliauka

Dudziszki (Mielegjany) = Staniūnai, Panevėžys District Municipality, Lithuania

Dukszty = Dūkštas, Ignalina District Municipality, Lithuania?

Dworez = Konstantinovskiy Park, Vystavochnaya Ulitsa, 3А, Sankt-Peterburg, Russia, 198515 ?

Hansewitsche (Hancewicze) = Hantsavichy, Belarus ?

Ignalinko = NOT FOUND (IGNALINA DISTRICT??)

Iligourma = NOT FOUND

Joniškis / Janischken = Zaozernoe, Kaliningrad Oblast, Russia

Lyngmjany (Lyngmiany) = Linkmenys, Ignalina District Municipality, Lithuania

Olkieniki = Valkininkai, 65438 Varėna District Municipality, Lithuania

Pereweredow = "Name, Commune, District = Pereweredów, Młynów, Dubno" (Dubno district = "Jelonka, Poland"?; see: https://web.archive.org/web/20171117231 ... pis/p.html)

Plikany = NOT FOUND (was part of Reichskommissariat Ostland, Generalbezirk Litauen, see: http://www.tenhumbergreinhard.de/1933-1 ... ikany.html)

Porubanek = (was part of Reichskommissariat Ostland, Generalbezirk Litauen, see: http://www.tenhumbergreinhard.de/1933-1 ... banek.html ; Google gives "Vilnius International Airport" as nearest? location, I used this)

Riekava-Karpiskiai = NOT KNOWN

Rzesza = Riešė, Vilnius District Municipality, Lithuania

Suschenhof, Kreis Riga (Zuzi) = Kreisa Imperija, Astras iela 10a, Zemgales priekšpilsēta, Rīga, LV-1002, Latvia = Zemgale, Riga, Latvia

Uscha (Usza) = Уша, Belarus

Wieliczany = NOT FOUND (was part of Vilnius district, see: http://www.tenhumbergreinhard.de/1933-1 ... czany.html)... included in "Vilnius" on map

Wiwikond = was in Kohtla-Järve, Ida-Viru County, Estonia (see: http://www.tenhumbergreinhard.de/1933-1 ... lager.html)

Zaczepka = Užtilčiai, 13147 Vilnius District Municipality, Lithuania

If we are to assume the points I have plotted are more or less correct, I am very curious what comes next. Do we want to also add the date ranges these camps were in operation (availability of data permitting)? Perhaps compare this to the advancement of the Soviets as the war progressed? Lots of opportunities come to mind.

[Butterfangers]

I already see an error. The "Dworez" sites (4114, 4115) should be in Ukraine. See here:
https://gov.genealogy.net/item/show/DWOREZKO31DE

I'll wait for feedback from others here to get as many "corrections" as possible before sharing an updated version.

Please share here any issues/problems that you find.

[borjastick]

Can you define what is meant by the word 'camp' please?

Seems to me there cannot have been all these 'camps', up to 20,000 were claimed right across Europe for the whole war period. A 'camp' in most people's eyes would be a semi permanent location with fences, security, living quarters etc. such as in Dachau as a good example. My guess is the word 'camp' has been used and overused by the holocaust industry to imply and convey the scale of evil as they see it.