NEW Considerations on Treblinka and the AR Camps

[Hektor]

All the logistics involved in burning 750K bodies outside, weather conditions, and the heat lost that would occur in burning bodies amazes me

It didn't seem to amaze too many historians, though. But it's an issue of course. Outside a crematoria, most heat will 'go elsewhere' easily. You end up with multiple time the fuel consumption for cremating or burning bodies.
That's why that isn't they would indeed 'have done'

The Exterminationists have however a problem. They can't show you remains corresponding their allegations. Hence they must come up with some major cremation magic having occurred.

For resettlement it does however make sense to strip Jews from assets (a form of taxation), before sending them further to the East.

[Butterfangers]

Butterfangers,

Can you prove that the trains heading east on the Treblinka line didn't pick up passengers from camps without any "exchange" taking place?

I am not sure what you are asking, here. Which "camps" are you referring to? Are you talking of the numerous labor camps where laborers (from the ghettoes) were sent eastward into, while the train was en route to Treblinka? Sure, one can make the claim that even more laborers actually onboarded the train and that none disembarked but that requires an assumption. I think the more likely assumption is that laborers were brought to labor camps to do labor (just as they were told would happen). Those who remained on the line by the time it reached Treblinka/Malkinia may have transited further east (also to do labor).

Is there any evidence that jews who were transited to Treblinka and actually set foot inside the TII camp were not killed and were transited elsewhere?

This is a purely hypothetical question as we have no clue how many Jews actually set foot in TII. Of those who were transited East (past Treblinka), we have no idea how many of them came directly from the ghettoes (e.g. Warsaw) or who were transferred out of the labor camps along the same route. I recall seeing some Revisionist works that cite some limited examples of cases where Jews were transited out of TII (or "Treblinka") after having stopped there. I'm not entirely familiar with all of it so cannot recite it from memory.

Were Jews transited beyond Treblinka to destinations in Belarus and Ukraine?

I think so but neither myself nor anyone else is now able to prove any specific number that were transited as such. For those that ultimately were transited in this way, I would agree with Mattogno/Graf/Kues in their statement as follows (from "T.E.C.O.A.R", Castle Hill, 2015), p. 668:

While a number of the surviving deported Polish Jews may have been assimilated into the local Russian, Belorussian or Ukrainian Jewish communities, with which they shared much in common, or even managed to return to Poland and from there on to other countries in the west or to Israel, a large portion of them, together with the surviving deported Western Jews, were kept as prisoners behind the Iron Curtain and most likely deported to and hidden away in northern Russia or Siberia, so that Stalin could consolidate the myth of the extermination of Jews in “gas chambers.”

What we can say now, however, is that Graf was flatly incorrect in his assumption from "Treblinka" (Castle Hill, updated 2020):

Since Treblinka was much too small to be able to accommodate the large number of Jews deported there at the same time, the transit camp thesis is, in fact, the single plausible alternative to the conventional picture of the extermination camp. Tertium non datur – no third possibility is given.

As already described, there is, indeed, an additional possibility (or perhaps a set thereof). Jews disembarked before they ever arrived at TII, with the majority perhaps never arriving there at all.

I understand there are some who take the view that, perhaps, none at all were transited further East than Treblinka (I think this is what PR suggests; that all Jews [save a few thousand who worked at TII sorting property] had disembarked before ever reaching Treblinka). I do think Mattogno/Graf/Kues make a strong case that many were, indeed, transferred further east but I anticipate that the clear Revisionist consensus point will ultimately be the simple fact that there is no evidence hundreds of thousands ended up in mass graves at TII. They either dispersed throughout many labor camps along the way with their property onward toward TII, they were transited further east, or both. With the blatant lack of material evidence supporting 'extermination' and the proven trail of fabricated "black propaganda" leading into such claims (as shown in Mattogno's 2021 work, "The "Operation Reinhardt" Camps Treblinka, Sobibór, Bełżec—Black Propaganda, Archeological Research, Expected Material Evidence"), this much is conclusive.

The number of jews that you can prove that were put on a train on the Treblinka line heading east but never made it further east than Treblinka, is no less than: ?

I feel I have already answered this. You asked this previously but phrased it as to whether I could prove "at least one", which I did. You are now asking how many in total I can prove but that would depend, in part, on how many I intend to set out to try and do so. I do not think this is necessary to advance the arguments I have already put forth, so I will not bother.

Finding proof of how many were en route toward Treblinka but did not end up there is unlikely to come from testimony as most (or all) Jews who were sent along that line were unaware that the final stop of the train was "Treblinka". They were simply sent to wherever they disembarked. Likewise, documents do not track/trace Jews by name, so it won't be there, either. The fact that some examples have already been shown is sufficient to suggest that Jews were, in fact, transported between the various labor camps along the line. Laborers went wherever labor was needed.

***

Also, to PR:

Here a sign reads "Treblinka, Treblinka," but neither "Treblinka" here refers to the "Trebinka II extermination camp" or the "Treblinka I labor camp."

I might be missing something obvious, here, but what is it that indicates this sign does not refer to TI/TII?

[curioussoul]

All the logistics involved in burning 750K bodies outside, weather conditions, and the heat lost that would occur in burning bodies amazes me

It didn't seem to amaze too many historians, though. But it's an issue of course. Outside a crematoria, most heat will 'go elsewhere' easily. You end up with multiple time the fuel consumption for cremating or burning bodies.
That's why that isn't they would indeed 'have done'

The Exterminationists have however a problem. They can't show you remains corresponding their allegations. Hence they must come up with some major cremation magic having occurred.

For resettlement it does however make sense to strip Jews from assets (a form of taxation), before sending them further to the East.

didn't Belzec start cremations during winter? ground would have been frozen solid. i seem to remember even German documents specifically mentioning dynamiting ground to bury fallen soldiers or something (might have been in Mattogno's Einsatzgruppen book).

[Iris]

Iris wrote:

Is there any evidence that jews who were transited to Treblinka and actually set foot inside the TII camp were not killed and were transited elsewhere?

PrudentRegret:

It is impossible to say how many Jews actually set foot inside the TII camp. That number is not at all supported by any known documents, and the documentary and circumstantial evidence suggests TII was not the final destination for the vast majority of the deportees.

My question doesn't ask about numbers nor makes any mention of numbers. You are assuming that it does.


PrudentRegret:

In the documents TII is not identified as the final destination, so how can you just make that assumption?

I didn't make that assumption. You've made the assumption that I did. The question you quote is neutral on the subject of numbers. The person making assumptions here is you.

PrudentRegret:

If you can make no reasonable conclusion regarding the number of Jews who set foot in TII, how could you possibly answer the question of how many Jews were transited elsewhere from TII specifically?

I have made no "conclusion regarding the number of Jews who set foot in TII" and the question doesn't ask "how many Jews were transited elsewhere from TII specifically"? It is a simple yes or no question that asks no questions about numbers, makes no reference to numbers and makes no assumptions about numbers.

PrudentRegret:

The entire Trump Card from the exterminationists has been "almost a million Jews went to TII, you can't find any that left that camp?"

It's only a trump card against those who stupidly fall for the Jews attempt to shift the burden of proof. Only simpletons fall for that trick. That's why you don't see true-belevers coming here and trying it. They get destroyed the second they try it.

PrudentRegret:

But of course that question is built on an assumption that is not supported by the documentary evidence. If we are talking about no more than 10 or 20,000 Jews who set foot in TII specifically, then the question itself is simply invalid.

Again, the only person making assumptions here is you. Regardless, let's put that statement of fact to the test.

Prudentregret, regardless of whether someone claims or assumes a figure of 10,000 or 1,000,000 "Jews who set foot in TII specifically" - "Is there any evidence that jews who were transited to Treblinka and actually set foot inside the TII camp were not killed and were transited elsewhere?"

PrudentRegret:

So to assume that the "T" in the Hoefle telegram denotes an exact count of the number of people that set foot in the exact camp now known as TII is not at all supported by documents.

I never said it was. That is an assumption on your part.

PrudentRegret:

It's an enormous assumption and an assumption that is almost certainly wrong...

Says the person who is making all sorts of wrong assumptions.

[Iris]

Butterfangers:

Iris

Butterfangers, Can you prove that the trains heading east on the Treblinka line didn't pick up passengers from camps without any "exchange" taking place?

I am not sure what you are asking, here.

I'm asking about this:

Butterfangers:

No other [rational] explanation exists for why these stops were made, if not to unload or exchange passengers.

Butterfangers:

Sure, one can make the claim that even more laborers actually onboarded the train and that none disembarked but that requires an assumption.

Can you prove that assumption is wrong?

Butterfangers:

Those who remained on the line by the time it reached Treblinka/Malkinia may have transited further east (also to do labor).

Is there any evidence that supports that claim?

Iris:

Is there any evidence that jews who were transited to Treblinka and actually set foot inside the TII camp were not killed and were transited elsewhere?

Butterfangers:

...we have no clue how many Jews actually set foot in TII.

Funny how you try to avoid the question in the same way that PR did. Why are you two so afraid of this question?

Answer please.

Butterfangers:

Of those who were transited East (past Treblinka), we have no idea how many of them came directly from the ghettoes (e.g. Warsaw) or who were transferred out of the labor camps along the same route.

The question has nothing to do with ghettoes / Warsaw or any alleged camps along the route.

Answer please.

Butterfangers:

I recall seeing some Revisionist works that cite some limited examples of cases where Jews were transited out of TII (or "Treblinka") after having stopped there.

That is probably why you believe this:

Butterfangers:

I think some, or many, or perhaps even most of them could have continued past Treblinka.

So Butterfingers, your answer to this question then

Is there any evidence that jews who were transited to Treblinka and actually set foot inside the TII camp were not killed and were transited elsewhere?

Is?

Answer please.

[Nazgul]

Is there any evidence that jews who were transited to Treblinka and actually set foot inside the TII camp were not killed and were transited elsewhere?

Yes there is. You may see the testimony in the following video : The Jewish Gas Chamber Hoax starting at about 15:15

Here are some names:

• Vivian Chaikio...February 43..Grodno-Treblinka-Majdanek
• Linda Penn...February 43..Grodno-Treblinka-Majdanek
• Zelda Gordon...February 43..Grodno-Treblinka-Majdanek
• Alexander Goldsmith..43 Warsaw-Treblinka-Majdanek
• Sol Liber...late April 43...Warsaw-Treblinka-Lublin with 500 other men
• Eddie Bachner...May 43..Warsaw-Treblinka-Majdanek
• Riva Kramer...Feb 43..Grodno-Treblinka-Majdanek
• David Silver...April/May 43..Minsk-Treblinka-Budzyn with 100 men
• Thaddeus Stabholz...April/May 43..Warsaw-Treblinka-Majdanek with 300 men
• Henry Franket...May 43..Warsaw-Treblinka-Majdanek with 300 men
• Moshe Zylberberg...April 43..Warsaw-Treblinka-Majdanek with 300 men
• Sam Kulawy...42-43..Biala Podlaska-Treblinka-Auschwitz with thousands.

There are many more witnesses

[Butterfangers]

Butterfangers:

Sure, one can make the claim that even more laborers actually onboarded the train and that none disembarked but that requires an assumption.

Can you prove that assumption is wrong?

No, I cannot, anymore than you can prove it is right. But when evidence is missing for a given situation to the extent that only speculation is possible for the time being, we would typically give weight to whichever assumption seems most likely. To that, I said:

I think the more likely assumption is that laborers were brought to labor camps to do labor (just as they were told would happen). Those who remained on the line by the time it reached Treblinka/Malkinia may have transited further east (also to do labor).

If you have evidence against this, go ahead and provide it. I'd love to see it. Please, no dodging.

Butterfangers:

Those who remained on the line by the time it reached Treblinka/Malkinia may have transited further east (also to do labor).

Is there any evidence that supports that claim?

Yes, there is evidence of transports leaving Treblinka (e.g. to Majdanek). There is also evidence labor was needed further east, that direct transports were sent there, etc.

Is there any evidence that jews who were transited to Treblinka and actually set foot inside the TII camp were not killed and were transited elsewhere?

I am not familiar with any that mention “Treblinka II / TII” specifically (as opposed to the more general “Treblinka”) but my knowledge is limited.

Butterfangers:

...we have no clue how many Jews actually set foot in TII.

Funny how you try to avoid the question in the same way that PR did. Why are you two so afraid of this question?

Answer please.

Nothing is being avoided. You are badgering on about a question that is hardly even relevant to this thread.
The only issue being discussed here (where the topic is “NEW Considerations on Treblinka and the AR camps”) is how the discovery of the many labor camps en route impact our understanding of the ‘extermination’ narrative as a whole. The question of my personal opinion or understanding as to whether any (or how many) Jews ended up in TII and then left should be at most a sidebar to the central topic, here, which is how many (if any) made it to TII at all. You have not shared any of your own insight in this regard.
How many Jews can you prove ever set foot in TII at all? Please, no dodging.

[Iris]

Butterfangers:

Sure, one can make the claim that even more laborers actually onboarded the train and that none disembarked but that requires an assumption.

Iris:

Can you prove that assumption is wrong?

Butterfangers:

No, I cannot,.. I think the more likely assumption...

It appears Butterfangers' thesis is based on assumption.

Butterfangers:

Those who remained on the line by the time it reached Treblinka/Malkinia may have transited further east (also to do labor).

Iris:

Is there any evidence that supports that claim?

Butterfangers:

Yes,

So there's evidence that those Jews "may have" been transited farther east than Treblinka.

Is there evidence that they in fact were?

Iris:

Is there any evidence that jews who were transited to Treblinka and actually set foot inside the TII camp were not killed and were transited elsewhere?

Butterfangers:

I am not familiar with any that mention “Treblinka II / TII” specifically...

Another dodge of the question. (I wonder why Butterfangers and PrudentRegret are so afraid to answer what is essentially a yes or no question?)

Butterfangers:

...we have no clue how many Jews actually set foot in TII.

And again Butterfangers brings up the issues numbers when the question makes no mention of such.

Funny how you try to avoid the question in the same way that PR did. Why are you two so afraid of this question?

Iris:

Answer please.

Butterfangers:

Nothing is being avoided.

Except your simple answer to my simple question.

The question that I ask is really just a simple yes or no question. Yet you refuse to answer it and continuously try to obfuscate the issue with mention of specific numbers of jews.

Butterfangers:

The question of my personal opinion or understanding as to whether any (or how many) Jews ended up in TII and then left should be at most a sidebar to the central topic, here, which is how many (if any) made it to TII at all.

We'll get to that as soon as you stop dodging my simple question and answer with an unambiguous answer.

Butterfangers:

You have not shared any of your own insight in this regard. How many Jews can you prove ever set foot in TII at all? Please, no dodging.

I will answer that question as soon as you stop dodging mine.

In fact, I'll make it easier for you by breaking down the question into two parts.

Butterfangers, is there any evidence that jews who were put on trains and transited east on the Treblinka line actually set foot inside the camp known as Treblinka II? (A simple yes or no will do.)

Butterfangers, if your answer to the above question is yes, is there any evidence that at least one jew actually set foot inside the Treblinka II camp, was not killed and was transited further east? (A simple yes or no will do.)

[Butterfangers]

No, I cannot,.. I think the more likely assumption...

It appears Butterfangers' thesis is based on assumption.

So is yours, even more so than mine.

Butterfangers:

Those who remained on the line by the time it reached Treblinka/Malkinia may have transited further east (also to do labor).

Iris:

Is there any evidence that supports that claim?

Butterfangers:

Yes,

So there's evidence that those Jews "may have" been transited farther east than Treblinka.

Is there evidence that they in fact were?

To my knowledge, there is not clear and indisputable proof of transports of Jews that had disembarked at TII, specifically, then re-boarded a train back onto the Eastern-occupied territories. The evidence we do have that this occurred is indirect (such as the fact that Jews were transported further east via direct transports (i.e. not stopping at AR camps), that there was obviously no mass murder in TII, that some claim to have transited out of "Treblinka" (to Majdanek, etc.).

Iris:

Is there any evidence that jews who were transited to Treblinka and actually set foot inside the TII camp were not killed and were transited elsewhere?

Butterfangers:

I am not familiar with any that mention “Treblinka II / TII” specifically...

Another dodge of the question. (I wonder why Butterfangers and PrudentRegret are so afraid to answer what is essentially a yes or no question?)

This is not a dodge. "I don't know" or "possibly" are perfectly reasonable answers to a yes/no question, especially when your question(s) are not clear. You sometimes use terms like "Treblinka" without mentioning "TII" specifically. These have two different meanings. You also ask about "evidence" which can have different 'levels'. "Evidence" can mean "hard proof" or it can mean "indications thereof". We can find direct evidence of something, or simply evidence that suggests a higher probability of one event over another, etc. To suggest otherwise is fallacy.

Butterfangers:

You have not shared any of your own insight in this regard. How many Jews can you prove ever set foot in TII at all? Please, no dodging.

I will answer that question as soon as you stop dodging mine.

In fact, I'll make it easier for you by breaking down the question into two parts.

Butterfangers, is there any evidence that jews who were put on trains and transited east on the Treblinka line actually set foot inside the camp known as Treblinka II? (A simple yes or no will do.)

Butterfangers, if your answer to the above question is yes, is there any evidence that at least one jew actually set foot inside the Treblinka II camp, was not killed and was transited further east? (A simple yes or no will do.)

No one has dodged any of your questions, even despite the fact that they seem almost completely irrelevant to the topic, here, and you refuse to explain how they may be relevant.

To be entirely clear, for the last time, in response to your two questions above (which are not so simple as to be answerable with a "yes" or "no" only, but I'll try to get as close as I can):

- There is no documented, verifiable, conclusive proof as such that I am aware of. There is indirect evidence as such (which I've already mentioned).
- Not TII, specifically, not that I am aware.

Now your turn:

How many Jews can you prove ever set foot in TII at all? Please, no dodging.

Also no dodging in the form of deflection back onto [false] claims that myself or PR have dodged any of your questions. None of your questions have been dodge-worthy, even if I were dishonest enough to do so. They simply aren't relevant.

Merry Christmas.

[Iris]

Iris:

It appears Butterfangers' thesis is based on assumption.

Butterfangers:

So is yours, even more so than mine.

Show me the thesis that I have proffered here in this thread. Exact quotes please.

Butterfangers:

Those who remained on the line by the time it reached Treblinka/Malkinia may have transited further east (also to do labor).

Iris:

Is there any evidence that supports that claim?

Butterfangers:

Yes,

Iris:

So there's evidence that those Jews "may have" been transited farther east than Treblinka.

Is there evidence that they in fact were?

Butterfangers:

To my knowledge, there is not clear and indisputable proof of transports of Jews that had disembarked at TII, specifically, then re-boarded a train back onto the Eastern-occupied territories.

The question wasn't "Is there clear and indisputable proof of transports of Jews that had disembarked at TII, specifically, then re-boarded a train back onto the Eastern-occupied territories?" The question was: Is there evidence (which means ANY kind of evidence, regardless of what level) that jews did in fact remain on the [Treblinka] line long enough to reach Treblinka/Malkinia and then got transited further east. IOW, is there evidence that that is a fact and not merely an assumption?

Butterfangers:

There is indirect evidence as such

Butterfangers, what are your definitions of "direct evidence" and "indirect evidence"?

[Iris]

Iris:

Butterfangers, is there any evidence that jews who were put on trains and transited east on the Treblinka line actually set foot inside the camp known as Treblinka II? (A simple yes or no will do.)

Butterfangers, if your answer to the above question is yes, is there any evidence that at least one jew actually set foot inside the Treblinka II camp, was not killed and was transited further east? (A simple yes or no will do.)

Butterfangers:

...in response to your two questions above...

- There is no documented, verifiable, conclusive proof as such that I am aware of. There is indirect evidence as such (which I've already mentioned).

- Not TII, specifically, not that I am aware.

Butterfangers:

Now your turn:

How many Jews can you prove ever set foot in TII at all? Please, no dodging.

Also no dodging in the form of deflection back onto [false] claims that myself or PR have dodged any of your questions. None of your questions have been dodge-worthy, even if I were dishonest enough to do so. They simply aren't relevant.

I don't know.

[Iris]

Butterfangers:

You also ask about "evidence" which can have different 'levels'. "Evidence" can mean "hard proof" or it can mean "indications thereof". We can find direct evidence of something, or simply evidence that suggests a higher probability of one event over another, etc. To suggest otherwise is fallacy.

So Butterfangers wants to play that game. Rather than to ask if there is evidence and then try to ascertain what level if the answer is yes, Butterfangers wants us to specify what level of evidence we are talking about in each and every question.

So be it.

Butterfangers, please list each and every level of evidence that you are aware of.

Reminders:

Butterfangers:

we have no clue how many Jews actually set foot in TII... I recall seeing some Revisionist works that cite some limited examples of cases where Jews were transited out of TII (or "Treblinka") after having stopped there.

Were those "revisionist works" based on some level of evidence, or were they simply assumptions based on conjecture? (Like your thesis.)

Iris:

Were Jews transited beyond Treblinka to destinations in Belarus and Ukraine?

Butterfangers:

I think so

Butterfangers:

As already described, there is, indeed, an additional possibility (or perhaps a set thereof). Jews disembarked before they ever arrived at TII, with the majority perhaps never arriving there at all.

Butterfangers:

I do think Mattogno/Graf/Kues make a strong case that many were, indeed, transferred further east

Butterfangers:

To my knowledge, there is not clear and indisputable proof of transports of Jews that had disembarked at TII,

Butterfangers:

Those who remained on the line by the time it reached Treblinka/Malkinia may have transited further east (also to do labor).

Iris:

Is there any evidence that supports that claim?

Butterfangers:

Yes,

Butterfangers:

Sure, one can make the claim that even more laborers actually onboarded the train and that none disembarked but that requires an assumption.

Iris:

Can you prove that assumption is wrong?

Butterfangers:

No, I cannot

Iris:

Butterfangers, can you prove that at least one jew was put on a train on the Treblinka line heading east but never made it further east than Treblinka?

Butterfangers:

Yes

Iris:

Butterfangers, The number of jews that you can prove that were put on a train on the Treblinka line heading east but never made it further east than Treblinka, is no less than: ?

Butterfangers:

I feel I have already answered this. You asked this previously but phrased it as to whether I could prove "at least one", which I did. You are now asking how many in total I can prove but that would depend, in part, on how many I intend to set out to try and do so. I do not think this is necessary to advance the arguments I have already put forth, so I will not bother.

Butterfangers, you claim that you can prove " that at least one jew was put on a train on the Treblinka line heading east but never made it further east than Treblinka." Can you prove the same for at least 5 of them?

Butterfangers:

You are badgering on about a question that is hardly even relevant to this thread.

"Badgering" huh? What you allege is based on your evasive and contradictory replies and outright dodging.

Butterfingers:

I think some, or many, or perhaps even most of them could have continued past Treblinka.

Butterfangers:

I cannot prove where anyone did or did not disembark from the train

But you can prove that jews disembarked from a train heading east on the Treblinka line before they got as far at TII?

Butterfangers:

I can only say that evidence strongly suggests many (if not most) of them disembarked before ever getting as far as Treblinka.

Butterfangers:

it can be argued a majority of them never arrived at TII

Look at Butterfangers talking out of both sides of his mouth:

Iris:

How do you know that they didn't just continue east past TII?

Butterfangers:

I don't know that. I think some, or many, or perhaps even most of them could have continued past Treblinka.

[Iris]

Iris:

Butterfangers, is there any evidence that at least one jew actually set foot inside the Treblinka II camp, was not killed and was transited further east?

Butterfangers:

Not TII, specifically, not that I am aware.

Butterfangers;

I recall seeing some Revisionist works that cite some limited examples of cases where Jews were transited out of TII (or "Treblinka") after having stopped there.

Oooops.

Butterfangers just cant stop contradicting himself. (Oh what a tangled web we weave...)

[Butterfangers]

Show me the thesis that I have proffered here in this thread. Exact quotes please.

An obnoxious request to follow your obnoxious line of questioning. You have not proferred any thesis here in this thread because you are simply being belligerent without any clear aim, certainly not one you're stating explicitly. You present an aggressive line of questioning without making clear why/how any of it challenges the importance of the facts stated in the original post of this thread and defended thereafter. It's just noise.

The question was: Is there evidence (which means ANY kind of evidence, regardless of what level) that jews did in fact remain on the [Treblinka] line long enough to reach Treblinka/Malkinia and then got transited further east. IOW, is there evidence that that is a fact and not merely an assumption?

[...] what are your definitions of "direct evidence" and "indirect evidence"?

I'll save you a Google search since you apparently can't be bothered to learn common terms and phrases in English before debating here. My definition agrees with this one (the legal definition):

"The legal definition of direct evidence is evidence that directly proves a key fact. On the other hand, indirect evidence, which is sometimes called circumstantial evidence, is a set of facts that, if they are true, allows a reasonable person to infer the fact in question."

Rather than to ask if there is evidence and then try to ascertain what level if the answer is yes, Butterfangers wants us to specify what level of evidence we are talking about in each and every question.

False. I cited evidence that Jews who went to TII may have also been transited further east. I said:

The evidence we do have that this occurred is indirect (such as the fact that Jews were transported further east via direct transports (i.e. not stopping at AR camps), that there was obviously no mass murder in TII, that some claim to have transited out of "Treblinka" (to Majdanek, etc.).

Rather than acknowledge it and move on, you repeated your question, asking again whether I had "evidence". I made clear I have no "direct evidence" as such.

In all of this, your own point is non-existent. Nothing you are saying--nothing at all--comes close to challenging in any way whatsoever what was put forth at the beginning of this thread, which we have seemed to veer far off-topic from since then. It seems quite at odds with the rules of this forum, frankly. What you are asking has near-zero bearing on the topic of this thread.

Why do you keep asking these obnoxious, belligerent questions? Do you have a point to make, here? Any day now?

But you can prove that jews disembarked from a train heading east on the Treblinka line before they got as far at TII?

I never claimed "proof". What I did was share evidence. The evidence for Jews having disembarked is stronger than any evidence suggesting they did not. This is simple, obvious, etc. yet you refuse to acknowledge it.

If you believe otherwise, you need to explain why these stops were made and their duration. There is only one rational explanation for these stops at present. You evade this fact.

Look at Butterfangers talking out of both sides of his mouth:

No. You are quote-mining however you can to suggest a contradiction, here.

I have said repeatedly:

[Establishment historians] are no longer simply having to answer the question of, "how many are buried in mass graves at Treblinka?" but also "how many even arrived there in the first place?".

...we no longer have any idea how many ever made it to Treblinka (TII)

...we have no clue how many Jews actually set foot in TII...

Therefore, my statements which you quote as evidence of contradiction, such as:

...evidence strongly suggests many (if not most) of them disembarked before ever getting as far as Treblinka.

or:

it can be argued a majority of them never arrived at TII

and:

I think some, or many, or perhaps even most of them could have continued past Treblinka.

...are actually 100%, entirely compatible with one another. This is obvious to anyone reading this thread with good intentions and not simply trying to throw shade for whatever reason.

There is one instance I do need to clarify:

Butterfangers;

I recall seeing some Revisionist works that cite some limited examples of cases where Jews were transited out of TII (or "Treblinka") after having stopped there.

Oooops.

Butterfangers just cant stop contradicting himself.

You're correct that this was a "contradiction" (or rather, at most, a mistaken recollection) given that I initially thought the testimony from Eric Hunt's Treblinka documentary had some witnesses who named TII specifically but through the course of this thread I watched that segment again and saw that all mention "Treblinka" more generally.

Thus, I am not aware of any instances where individual Jews claim to have been at TII, specifically, before being transited further east. I would not be surprised to find some, given the other indirect evidence which I am aware of, as already stated.

Look how far off-topic we have gotten.

To bring things back on-track, how about you tell us what you feel the significance of these labor camps en route toward Treblinka are, Iris?

Why do you seem to deflect from the obvious significance of these camps? What are your intentions in this regard?

Jews were laborers. They were sent eastward to do labor. They stopped for long periods at labor camps before those trains ever made it to Treblinka. There is no other reason which explains these lengthy stops other than departures/exchanges of passengers.

You admit you do not know how many Jews ever set foot in TII.

Surely, you are aware that there are others who do think they know how many Jews set foot in TII, or at least an estimate. Some of those who think this also think these Jews were 'exterminated'. You and I would likely agree these 'extermination' claims have already been demolished. But up until recently, these people (exterminationists/Believers) have still been able to say, "well, where did they [those who did arrive at TII] go?". They felt they had strong evidence to support that there were a certain estimated number range of Jews who must have "gone" somewhere (either out of, or buried under, TII). With the information shared early in this thread, they can no longer make this assumption of any particular number or range. And that is significant, no matter how hard you try to dodge that fact with spurious lines of questioning.

[Iris]

Iris:

It appears Butterfangers' thesis is based on assumption.

Butterfangers:

So is yours, even more so than mine.

Iris:

Show me the thesis that I have proffered here in this thread. Exact quotes please.

Butterfangers:

You have not proferred any thesis here in this thread

Butterfingers forced to admit that he lied.

Iris:

Butterfangers, what are your definitions of "direct evidence" and "indirect evidence"?

Butterfangers:

My definition agrees with this one (the legal definition):

"The legal definition of direct evidence is evidence that directly proves a key fact. On the other hand, indirect evidence, which is sometimes called circumstantial evidence, is a set of facts that, if they are true, allows a reasonable person to infer the fact in question."

So because of Butterfangers constant dodging and attempts to obfuscate the simplest questions, we will have to, at the very least, break down his contradictory statements into these two categories from now on.

Butterfangers:

False. I cited evidence that Jews who went to TII may have also been transited further east. I said:

Not falses. You alleged that you cite evidence that something "may" have happened. It is Butterfangers greasy way of obfuscation.

Butterfangers, I'm not interested in your assumptions of what "may" or may not have happened. I'm interested in what in fact did happen.

Let's stick to the facts here Butterfangers. I have no interest in hearing about your assumptions of what could be argued based on indirect evidence that something may have happened.

Iris:

Look at Butterfangers talking out of both sides of his mouth:

Butterfangers:

No. You are quote-mining

Butterfangers, do you deny that you made the following contradictory statements:

Butterfangers:

it can be argued a majority of them never arrived at TII... ]I can only say that evidence strongly suggests many (if not most) of them disembarked before ever getting as far as Treblinka.

I think some, or many, or perhaps even most of them could have continued past Treblinka.

Butterfangers:

I never claimed "proof".

But you did claim "evidence strongly suggests." Does that mean strong evidence? Does "strong evidence" fall into the direct or indirect category of evidence? Or is it a sub category of each?

I asked you to do the following:

Butterfangers, please list each and every level of evidence that you are aware of.

But you refused. Why are you so afraid to lay out your levels of evidence? Is it so you can continue with your greasy obfuscations?