Proskurov mass grave

Vallon · Postby **Vallon** » 1 decade 7 years ago (Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:04 pm)

"Mass graves of seven thousand Jews murdered in Khmelnitski Proskurov. Ukraine, January 1943"
http://members.fortunecity.com/usamakid ... ased/exec/
http://members.fortunecity.com/usamakid ... /nazi3.jpg

Well, that is only an alleged location of course. But always better than nothing.

See also: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 318#737318

Hannover · Postby **Hannover** » 1 decade 7 years ago (Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:27 pm)

This is no 'mass grave', it's one of the most embarrassing pasted together forged 'photos' I think I have ever seen. Is this a joke or something?

- No blood on the 'corpses', and they were supposedly shot.
- Notice the seam which runs around the edge of 'pit'.
- Notice the light right side and dark left side.
- No verifiable excavation of this alleged site has been done. Why?
- The SS would never have permitted photo taking of such an alleged site.

- Hannover

Haldan · Postby **Haldan** » 1 decade 7 years ago (Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:40 pm)

1.

My personal guess is that those people were victims of a bombing attack and thus the Germans hastly burned their corpses in such a way. See Dresden.2.

Please provide evidence that this 'disabled girl' was murdered by the Germans [if that is what is alleged; it has hard to tell]. We have a picture of a naked girl together with a very questionable caption.3.

UNAVAILABLE PHOTOGRAPH; SAYS "FORTUNE CITY". Irony.4.

The soldiers does not look German. There are four naked Jews; the allegation is "seven thousand Jews murdered"; where are the victims? Four naked Jews together with who knows who is...bizarre.5.

Known photograph from the grissly scenes of Bergen-Belsen. Those are victims of disease. If the allegation is that these people were gassed or otherwise murdered by the Germans I defy you to produce forensic evidence for this claim.6.

More disease victims at Bergen-Belsen. What is your point?7.

Questionable caption: "photograph of exhaused PAWs taken on September 21, 1944, five days before their execution."; where is the evidence that they were executed. If they really were partisans their execution was perfectly legal.8.

I note that the allegation of the soap lie is still used, last photograph bears this caption: "The bodies of those heads were used for the fabrication of soap and other leather articles. Remains were found in the Anatomy Institute, after the escape of the Germans." --- comments are unnecessary.

-haldan

Hannover · Postby **Hannover** » 1 decade 7 years ago (Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:49 pm)

haldan,
The image is bogus, bombling victims would not be 'nude' as these pasted in are. In fact, parts of it could be painted in and not actual corpses. Reminds me of the spaghetti-like people that are alleged to be corpses piled up awaiting outdoor cremation taken supposedly through a window at Auschwitz.

- Hannover

Haldan · Postby **Haldan** » 1 decade 7 years ago (Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:55 pm)

I don't know which 'photograph' you are speaking of. I adressed each 'photograph' on that website from the first to the last one. There are eight.
The one 'photograph' where I believe the 'victims' [what, four or six visible bodies] are those of bombing bears the caption; "American soldiers in front of calcinated corpses of Ohrdruf, Germany, April 1945".

Various Hoaxco$t websites note that Ohrdruff was bombed by the Allies, one website writes:

Not only was the camp hit by the bombs, there were 400 prisoners who were killed, along with 350 Germans.

-haldan

grenadier · Postby **grenadier** » 1 decade 7 years ago (Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:12 pm)

This doesn't even merit a discussion.
Fellas, I think Vallon is not that dumb, he is just having a good laugh at
our expense.
Good one Vallon, you're a real comedian!
:lol:

Hannover · Postby **Hannover** » 1 decade 7 years ago (Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:35 pm)

haldan said:

I don't know which 'photograph' you are speaking of.

The one I posted. Right click on that image and select 'properties'.

- Hannover

Haldan · Postby **Haldan** » 1 decade 7 years ago (Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:55 pm)

OK, excuse me. I only adressed the ones here:
http://members.fortunecity.com/usamakid ... ased/exec/

There were eight 'photographs' and one of them only said 'FortuneCity' so that must be the one you posted. I can see it now. It is the same one I posted in the thread about Babi Yar.

Looks like Vallon is trying to associate that 'photograh' with this one:
http://members.fortunecity.com/usamakid ... /nazi4.jpg

It shows four or five naked persons, all alive, but the caption reads; "Mass graves of seven thousand Jews murdered in Khmeknitski Proskurov. Ukraine, January 1943". I don't understand how somebody can call it a 'mass grave' when all the people on the photograph are alive.
What do I think of it? The persons on the photograph are most likely criminal partisans taken out to the woods for a execution for the crimes they had committed earlier. Perfectly legal and is to be expected, AND the men on the photograph must have known what happens when one fights as a partisan. It also makes sense that the Germans would photograph something like that.
There are several men in suits aswell. I don't know what function they had, maybe to witness the execution, so that everything was done in accordance to the rules of warefare. I don't know.

Notice:
"At war, pictures of the holocaust"

Forgeries, legal executions of partisans or other criminal elements, are not "proof" of a "holocaust".

-haldan

Hannover wrote:haldan said:
I don't know which 'photograph' you are speaking of.

The one I posted. Right click on that image and select 'properties'.

- Hannover

TMoran · Postby **TMoran** » 1 decade 7 years ago (Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:15 pm)

Grenadier noticed:

This doesn't even merit a discussion. Fellas, I think Vallon is not that dumb, he is just having a good laugh at our expense.

As with any photos, where were they found? How were they found? When were they found? And, who found them?

Vallon, next time you refer to something maybe you could find whatever it would be that would make it credible? If not, maybe you would have some explanation for it?

As for any photos appearing now that the Holocaust story is under attack and the frenzy to contend with it has come up with all sorts of photos of alleged mass graves, were any of the photos presented to any courts/tribunals whatever back then? If not, why not?

They only way to verify any alleged mass grave is to do a forensic excavation which would still show evidence 60 years later.

No forensic excavations, like in none whatsoever - No Holocaust credibility, meaning - No Holocaust.

Vallon · Postby **Vallon** » 1 decade 7 years ago (Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:41 pm)

TMoran wrote:Vallon, next time you refer to something maybe you could find whatever it would be that would make it credible?

Look, this photo was posted by Haldan on a thread about Babi Jar without any details whatsoever.

I had seen this one before, looked it up, and saw the attribution to Proskurov. As for provenance, Berkhoff gives as source a Polish war museum, Muzeum Wojska Polskiego.

Even if this is wrong, it is better than nothing.

Hannover · Postby **Hannover** » 1 decade 7 years ago (Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:05 pm)

Vallon said:

I had seen this one before, looked it up, and saw the attribution to Proskurov. As for provenance, Berkhoff gives as source a Polish war museum, Muzeum Wojska Polskiego.

Even if this is wrong, it is better than nothing.

Huh? I see no alleged history of this alleged photo. Citing 'Muzeum Wojska Polskiego', wherever/whatever that is, is no more credible than citing Nuremberg documents as proof of 'human soap'.

"Even if this is wrong, it is better than nothing." Are you serious, Vallon?

- Hannover

Richard Perle · Postby **Richard Perle** » 1 decade 7 years ago (Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:14 pm)

Haldan wrote:Looks like Vallon is trying to associate that 'photograh' with this one:
http://members.fortunecity.com/usamakid ... /nazi4.jpg

It shows four or five naked persons, all alive, but the caption reads; "Mass graves of seven thousand Jews murdered in Khmeknitski Proskurov. Ukraine, January 1943". I don't understand how somebody can call it a 'mass grave' when all the people on the photograph are alive.
What do I think of it? The persons on the photograph are most likely criminal partisans taken out to the woods for a execution for the crimes they had committed earlier. Perfectly legal and is to be expected, AND the men on the photograph must have known what happens when one fights as a partisan. It also makes sense that the Germans would photograph something like that.
There are several men in suits aswell. I don't know what function they had, maybe to witness the execution, so that everything was done in accordance to the rules of warefare. I don't know.

Come on now, it also features a naked boy which you didn't mention and that makes the above seem dishonest.
It's a strange photo and clearly isn't a mass grave like the caption claims. What are they wearing?

grenadier · Postby **grenadier** » 1 decade 7 years ago (Tue Nov 01, 2005 7:28 am)

Richard wrote:
<<Come on now, it also features a naked boy which you didn't mention and that makes the above seem dishonest. >>

You are right. However, more important is: What are we looking at? This
is just another 'photo' in which the players are completely unknown. I sure as hell dont see any german uniforms being worn by anyone. Several civilians are present, 2 at least seem to be holding rifles. And the victims? Who says they have to be jews? The caption.
:lol:

TMoran · Postby **TMoran** » 1 decade 7 years ago (Tue Nov 01, 2005 7:45 am)

As to my suggestion:

Vallon, next time you refer to something maybe you could find whatever it would be that would make it credible?

Vallon replies:

Look, this photo was posted by Haldan on a thread about Babi Jar without any details whatsoever.

I had seen this one before, looked it up, and saw the attribution to Proskurov. As for provenance, Berkhoff gives as source a Polish war museum, Muzeum Wojska Polskiego.

Even if this is wrong, it is better than nothing.

Well then, if some museum, then the museum should have a history of the photograph? It wouldn't be some museum having it, but the documentation they have? Say, aren't there some scores of major Holocaust museums?

'Even if wrong, it is better than nothing.'? Seems that if something is wrong it is worse than nothing? At least nothing is nothing but wrong is wrong?

Holocaust defending sure musters some interesting logics.

PLAYWRIGHT · Postby **PLAYWRIGHT** » 1 decade 7 years ago (Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:17 am)

I noted the forgery points on this photo before - at least a triple montage.

I got curious about the two women in the pile - halfway up the left hand side of the pic, and a quarter of the way in - who stand out suspiciously.

I zoomed in and rotated them to an upright position. As you can see, the top half of the right hand image is a woman in a summer hat wearing a blouse, and the bottom half - note the dividing line where the two images were merged - is either a baby or a doll. Her hairstyle is 1940's French, Note how her hair is still fresh and perfect under the hat, as if she only just left from her stylist. I'm guessing that the top half of the image was cut out of a French magazine.

The other suspicious body is a drawing, note the black blobs under the buttocks, done in India ink to hide a border line. Both images were cut and pasted into the photo to add to the body pile, and to cover part of the border line where the picture of the darker body pile was montaged into the picture of the lighter body pile.

Not only a forgery, but from the described origin of the photo, a Soviet forgery. In the body piles, there are other insertions and drawings.