Typical nature of Holocaust 'facts'

[TMoran]

===============================================
The "extermination" camp Treblinka was still in operation
when the Russians took over.
===============================================

"When the Russians took over the Treblinka complex and the nearly dead
survivors had recovered sufficiently to communicate, the tales that
they poured out were not limited to the horrors they had endured.
These called for no review. There was no lack of physical evidence on
display, the suffocated bodies in recently arrived cattle cars, the
abandoned instruments of torture and death, the files and records that
the Germans had so carefully maintained. It was the repeated tales of
senseless cruelty that increased the Russian fury; mothers obliged to
carry their infants to their deaths ...; the woman on her way to the
gas chamber, goaded to desperation by a taunting SS man, who threw
herself upon him, and was then tortured by his comrades to emphasize
the cost of remonstrance. The prisoners remembered the little boy who
consoled his weeping parents on the edge of their mass grave with the
assurance that the Russians would avenge them. They did so, wasting no
time on due process." (Sachar, 34-35)

Work Cited

Sachar, Abram L. The Redemption of the Unwanted.
New York: St. Martin's/Marek, 1983.




=========================================
The Germans had destroyed the camp
before the Russians took over.
=========================================

"After the uprising, on August 18 and 19, 1943, another two
transports slated for extermination arrived in Treblinka, bringing
Jews from Bialystok. Shortly afterward the Germans destroyed the gas
chambers and the other installations that remained after the revolt,
and with that put an end to the camp. While the liquidation of the
camp was no doubt in accord with a plan that predated the uprising,
its timing was probably moved up in wake of the revolt. On October 20
most of the remaining Jewish prisoners were transferred to Sobibor,
where they were killed. Another 25-30 prisoners remained in Treblinka
and were shot there a few days later. In order to cover up the crime,
a farm-house was built on the site of the camp, trees were planted,
and a Ukrainian peasant was employed to guard the deserted place."

Nizkor "Holocaust Educational" files

[Dan]

Sachar, Abram L. The Redemption of the Unwanted.
New York: St. Martin's/Marek, 1983.

I guess no one care what kind of rubbish St. Martin's prints, as long as it wasn't authored by Irving.

[max]

This is a distortion of what Sachar wrote. He was not talking about the extermination camp Treblinka, as TMoran falsely claims, but about the "Treblinka complex". The Treblinka complex consisted of the extermination camp Treblinka II and the labour camp Treblinka I, and Sachar is presumably speaking about the labour camp.

The second source from nizkor states entirely correct that Treblinka II (not I!) was liquidated in 1943.

So what we have here are indeed typical Holocaust facts.

Accurate facts.

[Dan]

Hallo max!

the files and records that
the Germans had so carefully maintained.

Was there really a list of the people gassed? Or what did these records consist of?

[max]

Hello Dan,my statement "accurate facts" was refering to the nizkor source, that TMoran tried to discredit. I don't know how accurate Sachar's account is. I guess that the Russians did not find much when they liberated the Treblinka complex, since Treblinka I, the labour camp, was also already liquidated, IIRC. Maybe they found cattle cars in the vicinity, maybe they found some records, etc. That I don't know. Maybe they found records of Treblinka I elsewhere and Sachar mixed it up. Perhaps Sailor can summarize what records Mattogno has found about Treblinka I. Whatever, the russians certainly met released or escaped prisoners from Treblinka I, so Sachar's account seems to have a true core, though some details seem to be rather unlikely. What we should remember, however, is that there was an attempt here to discredit the history of _Treblinka extermination camp_ by distortion.

[Scott]

There was no lack of physical evidence on
display, the suffocated bodies in recently arrived cattle cars, the
abandoned instruments of torture and death, the files and records that
the Germans had so carefully maintained.

If this refers to the labor camp gravel quarry of TI, why were there still cattlecars with "suffocated bodies" arriving from somewhere? The ghetto had been cleared and the Judenaktion was over.

Where were they still getting their Jews for labor?

Here is another source that mentions Treblinka victims dead-on-arrival. One wonders why they needed gassing "instruments of torture and death" at TII.

[max]

Scott,you are putting an importance and accuracy into Sachar's acccount that it doesn't has.

[Scott]

Scott,you are putting an importance and accuracy into Sachar's acccount that it doesn't has.

The Central Commission Report on German Crimes in Poland (1946) also rather inaccurately quantifies that dead bodies and parts were strewn around upon examination--presumably also at TI, because TII was supposedly obliterated to hide the evidence when the Aktion ended.

[TMoran]

Max says:
"This is a distortion of what Sachar wrote. He was not talking about the extermination camp Treblinka, as TMoran falsely claims, but about the "Treblinka complex". The Treblinka complex consisted of the extermination camp Treblinka II and the labour camp Treblinka I, and Sachar is presumably speaking about the labour camp.

The second source from nizkor states entirely correct that Treblinka II (not I!) was liquidated in 1943.

So what we have here are indeed typical Holocaust facts.

Accurate facts."

===================================================================

I've been through this with members of the Holocaust defense league many times. That would be where Max got his story from. That would be why we would have some designation in Nizkor.

The real fact is that both accounts are talking about the alleged extermination area.

As far as any Treblinka I and II is concerned they were supposed to have been all on one plot of ground as can be seen in the aerial recon photos snooped out by John Ball and of which only revisionists have on their websites. Another reference we can find to this alleged place is the "upper camp" and the "lower camp".

Then there was the gravel pit a kilometer or so on down the rail tracks past the area identified as the extermination camp. (The reason the tracks were there in the first place was to get material from the gravel pit.)

The real facts are that the two accounts are talking about the place in general. The one account telling us there was still a lot going on when the Russians got there and one telling us the place had been totally razed and all traces gone by the time the Russians got there.

Here's the abbreviated 'facts' -

'Fact' I.

"When the Russians took over the Treblinka complex and the nearly dead survivors had recovered sufficiently to communicate, the tales that they poured out were not limited to the horrors they had endured.


'Fact' II.

"... In order to cover up the crime, a farm-house was built on the site of the camp, trees were planted, and a Ukrainian peasant was employed to guard the deserted place."

It doesn't matter whether or not there was any Treblinka II and III or "upper camp" or "lower camp" the location is supposed to be Treblinka.

To argue such as Max does shows an ideal example of Holocaust desperation.

[Sailor]

Max:
Perhaps Sailor can summarize what records Mattogno has found about Treblinka I.

Sailor is a busy man doing translations for Rudolf.

Mattogno's book has over 440 pages, almost 1000 foot notes and numerous facsimiles of documents, surveyor drawings and photographies. It would take a lot of time to summarize the records for Treblinka I. On top much information is in Polish and for me quite difficult to type. Sorry.

When the Red Army liberated the Treblinka camp site they found together with the Polish at Treblinka I three mass graves with a total of some 300 bodies. They also discovered some barbed wires, the concrete foundations of the barracks and a couple of pits with garbage. (Source: State Archive of the Russian Federation, Moscow).

The book lists that a total of 10,000 inmates were ever interned in TI (Source: Informator encyclopedyczny.p.528).
However Polish Judge Lukaszkiewicz, who was involved with the case, stated that "about 50,000 Poles and Jews were murdered in Treblinka I". (Source: URSS-344, Russian Archive).

They also found in the vicinity of TI a cemetery for Polish workers and further in a forest 41 mass grave sites spread over an area of 1,600 sqmeter. Each grave was about 2m x 1m x 1m (6ft x 3ft x 3ft) which seems to be the size of an individual grave. 40 graves were desecrated, corpses were lying around. One grave was partly descrated and contained 10 bodies. The Polish court doctor found 112 sculls in the area (Source: Russian Archive).
Judge Lukaszkiewicz estimates that at least 6,500 people are buried here. (Source: Lukaszkiewicz: "Oboz pracy w Treblince").
Mattogno asks: Where are the other 6500-112 bodies?

In November 1945 our Judge Lukaszkiewicz got himself a couple of workers and started excavating at the Treblinka II site on November 9, 10, 11 and 13, 1945. The results of each day are in Mattogno's book word for word, who got it from documents reproduced in a book by Wojtczak. They found nothing, zilch, nada, null, except for untouched virgin soil in Treblinka II.
Most of the TII area is now covered with concrete (in my backyard we made the concrete patio 4inch thick with a reinforced steel mesh to avoid cracking), and any future excavation there maybe somewhat difficult to do.

Judge Lukaszkiewicz then came to the conclusion, based on the testimony of key-witness Wiernik, that all bodies were cremated and somehow made to disappear completely, the area was cultivated and seeded by an Ukrainian farmer,who then fled when the Russians came. (Source: URSS-344).

This whole story IMO converges to bullshit.

Mattogno in his book dealt with about 25 different orthodox authors about Treblinka, but Sachar is unfortunately not one of them.

fge

[max]

TMoran is trying to pull his neck from the noose, but that won't happen.

He has falsely claimed that Sachar is speaking about the "The 'extermination' camp Treblinka". He has falsely claimed that Sachar is stating the extermination camp "was still in operation when the Russians took over." TMoran tried to discredit the nizkor source, and the Holocaust in general, with this distortion.

Now he claims that "the real facts are that the two accounts are talking about the place in general". This is false. The paper from which TMoran has taken his nizkor source is entitled "Jewish Prisoner Uprisings in the Treblinka and Sobibor Extermination Camps" by Yitzhak Arad. My emphasis. So it is clear that the paper is about the extermination camp Treblinka, not about the Treblinka complex in general.

To argue such as Max does shows an ideal example of Holocaust desperation.

ROTFL !!

[max]

Thanks, Sailor.

[TMoran]

As to everything I have said including my reply to Max's comments Max says:

"TMoran is trying to pull his neck from the noose, but that won't happen."

Okay, nothing there in way of substance.

"He has falsely claimed that Sachar is speaking about the "The 'extermination' camp Treblinka"."

Nothing there either:

"He has falsely claimed that Sachar is stating the extermination camp "was still in operation when the Russians took over." TMoran tried to discredit the nizkor source, and the Holocaust in general, with this distortion."

Nor there.

"Now he claims that "the real facts are that the two accounts are talking about the place in general". This is false."

Still only a declaration.

"The paper from which TMoran has taken his nizkor source is entitled "Jewish Prisoner Uprisings in the Treblinka and Sobibor Extermination Camps" by Yitzhak Arad."

Naming the ultimate source does nothing.

"My emphasis."

Nothing for that.

"So it is clear that the paper is about the extermination camp Treblinka, not about the Treblinka complex in general."

So in the end run we have nothing from Max to dispell that we are talking about Treblinka.

We are left with the substance of what the two opposing accounts say:

Account Sachar:
"When the Russians took over the Treblinka complex and the nearly dead survivors had recovered sufficiently to communicate, the tales that they poured out were not limited to the horrors they had endured.


Account Arad:
"... In order to cover up the crime, a farm-house was built on the site of the camp, trees were planted, and a Ukrainian peasant was employed to guard the deserted place."

[max]

Thank you for you meaningless reply, TMoran. Of course, you have not refuted anything I wrote, but should that really be my problem?

Account Arad:
"... In order to cover up the crime, a farm-house was built on the site of the camp, trees were planted, and a Ukrainian peasant was employed to guard the deserted place."

Again, Arad is speaking about the "extermination camp" Treblinka, and nothing else. Already in the first paragraph of this paper, Arad defines that he uses Treblinka as synonym for the extermination camp:

"At the same time that preparations were being made for the destruction of the Jews in the General-Government in Poland, in what was called Operation Reinhard (Einsatz Reinhard), three death camps were being erected in the Lublin region -- at Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka. The first camp, at Belzec, was set up alongside the Tomaszow-Lwow railroad and went into operation in March 1942; the second, Sobibor, was erected near the Brest-Litovsk-Wlodawa-Chelm railway line and became operational in April 1942; the third, Treblinka, was set up near the Warsaw-Bialystok railway and started operating on July 23, 1942."

So when Arad speaks about "the camp" he only refers to the extermination camp, as this is the topic of his paper, and not to the whole complex, as TMoran erroneouisly claims.

[TMoran]

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Max has returned to reply to all I have said:
"Thank you for you meaningless reply, TMoran. Of course, you have not refuted anything I wrote, but should that really be my problem?"

Max, what is there to refute?

I have condensed the essence of the two totally different accounts -

Account from Sachar - The place was still in operation when the Russians got there:
"When the Russians took over the Treblinka complex and the nearly dead survivors had recovered sufficiently to communicate, the tales that they poured out were not limited to the horrors they had endured.


Account from Arad - The place had been totally razed of all evidence when the Russians got there:
"... In order to cover up the crime, a farm-house was built on the site of the camp, trees were planted, and a Ukrainian peasant was employed to guard the deserted place."

So what is there to refute? Meaning what did you do to straighten it all out?

Here's a little more for you to consider when you return -

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/aktion ... z-001.html

For about two months I worked in the upper section of the camp and then after Eberl had gone everything in the camp was reorganized. The two parts of the camp were separated by barbed wire fences. Pine branches were used so that you could not see through the fences. The same thing was done along the route from the "transfer" area to the gas chambers...

Work Cited

Klee, E., W. Dressen, V. Riess. The Good Old Days, New York: The Free Press, 1988


So we see that everything was all on one continuous plot of land and seperated by nothing more than a fence, so it says.

As we can see in the aerial recon shots we are dealing with only some 20 acres of land.

The only other place associated with that would be the gravel quarry.

Now where did the two accounts take place?