Reinhard Heydrich's Death

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JohnnieDarko
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Reinhard Heydrich's Death

Postby JohnnieDarko » 1 year 3 months ago (Thu Feb 17, 2022 12:44 pm)

First of all treat this thread with a little grain of salt because it is in the realm of lets say conspiracy theory 8)

It is strange to say this but one of the Third Reich personalities i've "almost admire" is Heydrich, in the SS/SD he was one of the smartest and most competent officer, ruthless and he executed his tasks almost brilliantly a true workaholic for the Reich. Admire might come of wrong so i will rephrase it to i'm sort fascinated by his persona, and he was definitely more intelligent and efficient than Himmler.

I've had the pleasure of discussing the subject with author Max Williams, he made two brilliants books about both Himmler and Heydrich, and he had amazing sources and after much talk he demoted me because there was not many sources on this subject i'm presenting here and its something nearly impossible to prove today. Mr Williams is convicted in Himmler behalf, myself I always had a strange feeling about this.

First of all Heydrich death was his fault, the lack of security made him vulnerable to that attack, but what about his time in the hospital?

The first account i've read on this subject was by Eugen Dollmann in With Hitler and Mussolini: Memoirs of a Nazi Interpreter in wich he says that Dr Theodor Morell told him that Himmler sent Gebhardt to make sure Heydrich will die: in his opinion only a few of sulfonamides would have saved him. Dollmann also says that months later, Himmler was invited in Roma by Ciano that wanted to make this story clear and Himmler answered : "Heydrich was one of the best, but maybe some superior powers wanted only Adolf Hitler to lead the Reich to its destiny". This answer reinforced Dollman in his conviction that Himmler assassinated indirectly Heydrich by making sure he would not be saved.

Well Dollmann is not a very reliable person but the case is intriguing at least since when Heydrich was in the hospital in the first days he was doing good and getting better then Dr. Karl Gebhardt which was Himmler's personal doctor was sent to treat Heydrich and a couple of days later he dies of septicemia. The most valid point for his death was that germans didn't had penicillin, but Dr. Morrell at the time suggested sulfonamides for the treatment and Gebhardt discarded that option completely. I know most of them didn't like Morrell but if there's was a possibility why not try it? And I know Gebhardt would later try to recreate the situation on prisoners on concentration camps that sulfonamides wouldn't work, but the experiments were poorly conducted on prisoners poorly fed, in degradable conditions and poor health it was more of a torture, Heydrich on the other hand was a healthy man with the best care.

It's common knowledge that as the chief of SD Heydrich was a very powerful person, Hitler liked him a lot, and in my opinion he was way more efficient than Himmler and without that esoteric mumbo jumbo, that diverted a lot of attention from the party goals, even Hitler was not fond of it, could have Heydrich rise to a position that was threatening to the Reichsführer? His rise through the party was amazing, as protector of bohemia and moravia his work was exemplar and its said his next mission was going to France. He was still rising in the party, and being a dangerous man would be possibly that Himmler became afraid of him? or saw him as a treat? Giving numerous situations that happened during the third reich were people got killed, blackmailed, denounce, etc, for a chance for some other person to rise, would this be a consideration in the realm of possibilities? Did the perfect oportunity and conditions presented for Himmler to take out a rival without any suspicious? He's sure ruthless enough to pull something like this.

Excerpts from book "Heydrich - Dark Shadow of the SS":

Himmler ordered his friend, Professor Dr Karl Gebhardt, and Dr Ludwig Stumpfegger to fly to Prague and take over the care of his SS comrade. SS-Brigadeführer Gebhardt was Chief Surgeon of the Hohenlychen Medical Institute, Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery at the University of Berlin, and Chief Surgeon to the Reich Physician SS. He was accompanied by the famous surgeon, Ferdinand Sauerbruch, a consultant to the problem. Both eminent surgeons arrived by air on the night of the attack. Gebhardt was pleased with the operation results and, although there was drainage from the chest wound and the patient was running a temperature, both men thought that Heydrich would recover. By 2 June, Heydrich’s temperature was 102 degrees Fahrenheit and a further operation was discussed, but this was discounted by Gebhardt as he felt it would be unnecessary.

Dr Theodor Morell, Hitler’s physician, took the opportunity to suggest his ‘modern sulfonamides’, but Gebhardt refused. He considered sulphonamides totally useless in the treatment of field wounds. The medical staff were surprised at the vast quantity of morphine that was ordered for Heydrich. The thirty-eight years old Heydrich, at 6 feet 3 inches and weighing 205lbs, may well have required large quantities of narcotics to keep him comfortable during visits.

Heydrich…lost his fight for life and died at 4.30am on 4 June 1942, in Dr Dick’s converted office. His death was recorded, somewhat incorrectly, by a clerk in the death register, volume 1/1942, under number 348: ‘Reinhard Tristan Heydrich. Todesursache: Schussverletzung / Mordanschlag / Wundinfektion.’

The autopsy was conducted, at the request of the Reichsprotector’s Office, by Herwig Hamperl, Professor of Pathology at Charles University, and the forensic pathologist, Günther Weyrich, on the day of Heydrich’s death. Also present were Professors Dick and Hohlbaum, Professor Sauerbruch and the SS physicians, Professor Gebhardt and Dr Stumpfegger.

Cause of death was recorded in the autopsy report as hepathic, renal and myocardial damage caused by virulent microbes or their toxins. There was no reason to suppose chemical poisoning by a grenade splinter. Hamperl concluded that the absence of a spleen had weakened the body’s ability to resist infection. Professor Hamperl revised his conclusion in 1970 and declared that, in his opinion, death resulted from anaemic shock. The notion that the British SOE had doctored the grenade with botulinum toxins can be completely discounted as fiction.


Well i'm not saying this really happened, because Heydrich was also a value asset for Himmler, but is it completely out of the realm of possibilities? Giving the rise of Heydrich and the calculated ruthless of Himmler don't you think at some giving time they could have different interests, this happened a lot throughout the Third Reich Government, and if you take out a opponent like Heydrich reports can be altered or even forged to fit the narrative specially if you are the Reichsführer. Just like at the end of the war Himmler was moving in silence to make a treaty with the allied until they blow the whistl, Himmler was a dangerous man and all of his actions were very calculated but Heydrich was in the level only with less power, as chief of SD he had a vast knowledge of his surroundings and knew a lot of secrets and dirt on a lot of people, plus Hitler really liked him.
Last edited by JohnnieDarko on Thu Feb 17, 2022 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Reinhard Heydrich's Death

Postby JohnnieDarko » 1 year 3 months ago (Thu Feb 17, 2022 12:45 pm)

I quoted myself by mistake, sorry.

Otium

Re: Reinhard Heydrich's Death

Postby Otium » 1 year 3 months ago (Thu Feb 17, 2022 1:43 pm)

Perhaps you'll find something interesting in Tina Walford's book 'Heydrich: Neun Monate Reichsprotektor in Böhmen und Mähren 1941/42'
26_0.jpg


Max Williams is odd. His two volume biography of Heydrich published by Ulrich of England is well received for being objective, while his newer book 'Dark Shadow of the SS' is noticeably more dogmatic and anti-Nazi in tone, rather less objective and much more prone to spewing out the same sycophantic bunkum you can expect from mainstream historians who irrationally rant and rave about "terror" and "racism" etc. It's odd to think, so some people I know tell me, that Williams was friends with Stuart Russell, the director of a fine documentary about Hitler during WW1, and author of the book 'Frontsoldat Hitler: Der Freiwillige des Ersten Weltkrieges. Zeitgeschichte in Bildern', Russell, who is known (so I've been told) for being an admirer of Hitler.

Frankly, I'll take anything Williams says with a grain of salt. Someone as schizophrenic as that doesn't seem to be all that interested in truth, but about reaffirming the same old myths and legends.

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Re: Reinhard Heydrich's Death

Postby JohnnieDarko » 1 year 3 months ago (Thu Feb 17, 2022 1:56 pm)

Otium wrote:Perhaps you'll find something interesting in Tina Walford's book 'Heydrich: Neun Monate Reichsprotektor in Böhmen und Mähren 1941/42' 26_0.jpg

Max Williams is odd. His two volume biography of Heydrich published by Ulrich of England is well received for being objective, while his newer book 'Dark Shadow of the SS' is noticeably more dogmatic and anti-Nazi in tone, rather less objective and much more prone to spewing out the same sycophantic bunkum you can expect from mainstream historians who irrationally rant and rave about "terror" and "racism" etc. It's odd to think, so some people I know tell me, that Williams was friends with Stuart Russell, the director of a fine documentary about Hitler during WW1, and author of the book 'Frontsoldat Hitler: Der Freiwillige des Ersten Weltkrieges. Zeitgeschichte in Bildern', Russell, who is known (so I've been told) for being an admirer of Hitler.

Frankly, I'll take anything Williams says with a grain of salt. Someone as schizophrenic as that doesn't seem to be all that interested in truth, but about reaffirming the same old myths and legends.


Well I Will try to check that book you've recommended. I've also agree with you about Max William I think he tried to make a more appealing book ence the title the dark shadow of the SS rather than make something concise. But I had a nice discussion with him and since I couldn't reach David Irving that was my best source, but at the end it was fruitless because I couldn't get any valid information, but those passages from his book are interesting, and he discarded this theory as impossible.

What's your opinion on it? I know there's none really reliable facts to support it and its a case of interpretation of what happened, but I've always had a strange feeling about this story. I would love to hear some opinions on it, am I completely crazy and this was truly a impossible scenario or is it something worth investigating?

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Re: Reinhard Heydrich's Death

Postby JohnnieDarko » 1 year 3 months ago (Sat Feb 26, 2022 8:27 am)

Oh i thought this was a more engaging forum and could offer some good opinions on the subject, guess the revisionism its all centered in the jews question :eh: :eh:

Otium

Re: Reinhard Heydrich's Death

Postby Otium » 1 year 3 months ago (Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:39 am)

JohnnieDarko wrote:What's your opinion on it? I know there's none really reliable facts to support it and its a case of interpretation of what happened, but I've always had a strange feeling about this story. I would love to hear some opinions on it, am I completely crazy and this was truly a impossible scenario or is it something worth investigating?


I don't currently have an opinion on it. I've made a note of it, and will gather information about it. Although my first impression is that it's unlikely. Irving's first volume on Himmler does a good job at describing Himmler's personality, his loyalty to his friends, and that he was popular among those who knew him. I find it hard to believe a man as punctual and loyal as him would concoct a plan to kill Heydrich.

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Re: Reinhard Heydrich's Death

Postby JohnnieDarko » 1 year 3 months ago (Sun Feb 27, 2022 6:50 pm)

Otium wrote:

I don't currently have an opinion on it. I've made a note of it, and will gather information about it. Although my first impression is that it's unlikely. Irving's first volume on Himmler does a good job at describing Himmler's personality, his loyalty to his friends, and that he was popular among those who knew him. I find it hard to believe a man as punctual and loyal as him would concoct a plan to kill Heydrich.


I've read Irving's True Himmler, and it's a very good insight on the Reichsführer, but I think Irving is a little biased when It comes to Himmler, he has kind of a love affair with his persona, and he was close to his daughter, and while it's probably one of the most faithful Himmler's biographies he would never describe this side of him.

1st point I don't think it was a plan but rather a opportunity that he seized to take him down. Heydrich was getting really powerful and he had dirt on everyone and instigated more fear than Himmler himself, he was a real opponent, and may they would clash at some point. And Heydrich considered Himmler's Occult obsessions to be pointless and he just acted along, plus Heydrich was getting more and more important tasks from Hitler because of his skills.

2nd do you think Himmler was that loyal? In the beginning of the party and through his rise until Reichsführer he was not so loyal to several people until he got what he wanted, and there was several claims of him trying to screw people and off people. Some historians even say that he knew about the 20 July plot, they say that was near impossible for him not to know about the plot and he let it happen (a tottaly unconfirmed rumor and never proved, but kind of like the heydrich theory would show his opportunism since the war by then was lost). And the fact that he was trying to make arrangements with the allies without Hitlers consent? Do you think he was being loyal to Hitler? Or was he being opportunistic...
Being opportunistic was a trait of him, that loyal persona Irving is so attracted was only to a selected few in my opinion. And if at the end he acted against his leader and idol, is it so impossible he would seize the perfect opportunity to take out a man the was revealing to be a more efficient man that him, and very dangerous one? I don't think that's that absurd since he at some point kind of acted against everyone in Hitler's inner circle.

Again I'm not saying anything of this is true, just letting my conspiracy side coming out haha

Otium

Re: Reinhard Heydrich's Death

Postby Otium » 1 year 3 months ago (Mon Feb 28, 2022 12:18 am)

JohnnieDarko wrote:I've read Irving's True Himmler, and it's a very good insight on the Reichsführer, but I think Irving is a little biased when It comes to Himmler, he has kind of a love affair with his persona, and he was close to his daughter, and while it's probably one of the most faithful Himmler's biographies he would never describe this side of him.


Personally I disagree. Gudrun Himmler (subsequently 'Burwitz') didn't believe that Irving would treat her father fairly, she was concerned that he would (as he will) blame him for the Holocaust, thus doing a disservice to the truth about her father (I cannot remember the source right now, but back in 2018 I emailed Irving asking him about Gudrun's concerns). And according to Joseph Bellinger, author of the wonderful book entitled 'Himmlers Tod: Freitod oder Mord? Die letzten Tage des Reichsführers-SS' which exposed the fact that Himmler was murdered, relations between Irving and Gudren weren't friendly, let alone close, he described them as being "strained". Which I think is a bit of an under statement.

As for being biased or having a "love affair" with his persona, there is no proof of this and this certainly isn't my impression. Anyone who is even half-way objective, let alone charitable to any figure of the Third Reich is seen in such terms; for an example of this look no further than Günther Deschner who, as I'm sure you know, authored the standard biography of Heydrich ('Reinhard Heydrich: Statthalter der totalen Macht. Biographie') until Gerwarth's biography came out a decade or so ago. There were some rather nasty amazon reviews of his book which decried the fact that his work wasn't full of denunciations on every page. Trying to quantify something like 'bias' is generally very difficult, unless you're faced with such obvious bias like that of any other mainstream book on the Third Reich and WW2, which is immediately obvious by the derisory tone, insults, disdain and outright lies.

Whether Himmler had that side of him at all is a question to be pondered and critically at that. As any biography is bound to have bias, and not a positive one. Who's to say that you haven't fallen for the lies and bias of other authors who have given you this false impression of Himmler in the first place? If Himmler did have such a side Irving will certainly write about it. We have yet to see his second volume on Himmler appear which contains all of this kind of stuff. So until then we have to wait.

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Re: Reinhard Heydrich's Death

Postby JohnnieDarko » 1 year 3 months ago (Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:45 am)

Otium wrote:

Personally I disagree. Gudrun Himmler (subsequently 'Burwitz') didn't believe that Irving would treat her father fairly, she was concerned that he would (as he will) blame him for the Holocaust, thus doing a disservice to the truth about her father (I cannot remember the source right now, but back in 2018 I emailed Irving asking him about Gudrun's concerns). And according to Joseph Bellinger, author of the wonderful book entitled 'Himmlers Tod: Freitod oder Mord? Die letzten Tage des Reichsführers-SS' which exposed the fact that Himmler was murdered, relations between Irving and Gudren weren't friendly, let alone close, he described them as being "strained". Which I think is a bit of an under statement.

As for being biased or having a "love affair" with his persona, there is no proof of this and this certainly isn't my impression. Anyone who is even half-way objective, let alone charitable to any figure of the Third Reich is seen in such terms; for an example of this look no further than Günther Deschner who, as I'm sure you know, authored the standard biography of Heydrich ('Reinhard Heydrich: Statthalter der totalen Macht. Biographie') until Gerwarth's biography came out a decade or so ago. There were some rather nasty amazon reviews of his book which decried the fact that his work wasn't full of denunciations on every page. Trying to quantify something like 'bias' is generally very difficult, unless you're faced with such obvious bias like that of any other mainstream book on the Third Reich and WW2, which is immediately obvious by the derisory tone, insults, disdain and outright lies.

Whether Himmler had that side of him at all is a question to be pondered and critically at that. As any biography is bound to have bias, and not a positive one. Who's to say that you haven't fallen for the lies and bias of other authors who have given you this false impression of Himmler in the first place? If Himmler did have such a side Irving will certainly write about it. We have yet to see his second volume on Himmler appear which contains all of this kind of stuff. So until then we have to wait.


About Gudrun maybe I'm confused, or confusing Irving's relationship with her with someone else. But I could swear I heard Irving talking about it somewhere, but I might be wrong since your saying that so risk it off. One of my personal obsessions are the SS-Ehrenrings and I know Don Boyle kept correspond with her maybe I'm confusing with it with something he told me.

Well maybe biased was a strong word but I will keep the love affair with his persona, and it's just a feeling I get when he talks about him. Biased would reflect more on the book and it was not the case, but I've seen some old videos of him and the way he talks I personally feel that there's a soft spot for Himmler but again it's just a feel.

As for the last part I construtect this particularly theory around not historical authors, but by third Reich testemonials, and auto-biographies from third Reich personalities. Like the one that started this post "the only clue", I'm sure some of them might not be all the way accurate but they couldn't all be wrong right? And for the most part people talk about his opportunism, I don't recall which auto-biography it was but I've it was someone from luftwaffe and that was close to Goering and talking about a incident that made Goering really mad that day and was about Himmler and his way of dealing things and trying to screw Goering and he say also says that wasn't anything new between then and Goering would do the same to Himmler but he doesn't get into details . I've read some other one (I really need to start re-reading some books to get my sources since I never thought I would need to quote that) from a SS officer and while he don't say anything bad about his persona he comments the Occult side basically saying it was mumbo-jumbo and he cites Heydrich and him going to meet Himmler and Heydrich talking that he was tired of all that talk and that they were a waste of time. So no author particularly give me the false impression of Himmler but other third Reich people that knew him. And I don't think Irving second volume, while I'm patiently waiting for it, will reveal or deny any of this.

And you dodge my question of Himmler loyalty, do you think he was loyal to Hitler until the end? Or was he trying to save his neck?


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