They're claiming that Reich soldiers raped 10 million Soviet women

[Truthseeking]

The horrific rape of German girls and women by the Soviet Army is gaining traction on the internet, but it is being countered by the claim that German soldiers raped many times more. I do not believe that. But, anyone can say anything and may be able to say it authoritatively. What legitimate sources do we have concerning sexual crimes by German troops? What I am looking for is a way to counter this preposterous claim. Thank you.

[Hektor]

Now use some logic. If that were true... You'd be sure that they'd trumped up already 80 years ago.

They didn't ... They didn't even bother to fill that into their 'atrocity reports'... Simple reason being that they can't load this with too much stuff that isn't believable.

The only legitimate sources on rapes by German/Axis troops would be trial records... By their own authorities that is. They occurred of course, as it does do in peace time... That it was rare was the reason why the Allies never trumped this up.

[hermod]

This thread is not about the Holocaust. It doesn't belong in here. Should rather be posted there: viewforum.php?f=20

[Truthseeking]

Thank you, but the board you referred me to concerns the Atlantic side. I have already found references to the intolerance of and severe punishment of sexual crimes by German soldiers on the Western front. Supposedly, there was a vast difference on the Eastern front, where rape was allowed and encouraged. But, I like the point made of the other poster that, wouldn't the Soviets have wailed about it at the time, as the Germans did in response to the mass rape of German women?

[Otium]

This is a dubious claim to say the least.

It's not based on any solid figures, but on guesstimations.

This particular claim seems to originate from a Women's rights activist and open borders advocate named Ursula Schele and by extenstion the dubious mid-90s 'Wehrmacht exhibition' which sought to document the 'Crimes of the Wehrmacht'. This exhibition is known both by revisionists and mainstream historians to have been vicisious anti-German propaganda exhibition plain and simple. The facts presented in it were admitted to be either flat out wrong, or invented in some cases (IIRC). The mainstream Swedish historian Christer Bergström admitted:

Soviet partisans — in reality a branch of the repressive authorities — carried out atrocities against the civilian population on a large scale. A German report covering the period 11 December 1941-23 January 1942 established that three out of four victims of partisan killings were Soviet civilians. The fact that several among those executed were collaborators and killers of hostages and Jews, and the presence of “false partisans” does not alter the fact that the partisans upheld Stalin’s rule of terror over the population.

[...]

The Wehrmacht had a profound complicity in crimes against the Soviet POWs, but the extent to which it participated in the mass killings of Jews has been exaggerated — e.g. by the 1995 Wehrmacht Exhibition ("Verbrechen der Wehrmacht”), which was proved to contain many factual errors.

Christer Bergström, Operation Barbarossa 1941: The Largest Military Campaign in History. Hitler Against Stalin (Oxford: Casemate Publishers, 2016), pp. 268, 269.

The claim made by Ursula Schele was this:

In a discussion on the 1997 Wehrmacht exhibition in Bremen with Prof. Dr. Jan Phillip Reemtsma, among others, Prof. Dr. Wolfgang Eichwede described the fact that there were an extraordinarily large number of children of Wehrmacht soldiers in the former Soviet Union. Referring to Russian historians and German sources, he assumes more than one million children conceived under wartime conditions and emphasizes that there are many testimonies of rapes (cf. Thiele, p. 96).

Based on biological facts, it can be assumed that statistically about every tenth sexual intercourse results in a pregnancy. Consequently, it must be assumed that about 10 million rapes were committed by German men on Russian soil alone. In Norway, Denmark, Belgium, the Netherlands and France, about 200,000 children of German occupation soldiers were born. To what extent the causal contacts were voluntary or carried out out of fear, hunger and under force remains speculation as long as there is no interest in research (see Sander, p. 71). Today, 54 years after the end of the war, only a few of the victims concerned are still able to answer our questions. Nevertheless, they have a right to our respect and attention.

Ursula Schele, "Vergewaltigungen und Zwangsprostitution im Krieg: ...und sie wissen, was sie tun", Gegenwind, 122 (Nov. 1998).

Schele's article was published in the openly Anti-Fascist, Communist periodical 'Gegenwind' in November 1998. It was published in their special issue entitled 'Schleswig-Holstein und die Verbrechen der Wehrmacht'. Other contributers published alongside Schele in the same issue were the nonsensically vile ravings of the 'Gruppe AntifaschistInnen Norderstedt' (Group Antifascists Norderstedt) who wrote, as one example, a short piece under the title 'Totengedenken "Deutsche Täter sind keine Opfer!"' (Commemoration of the dead "German perpetrators are not victims!"). How charming. . .

You can read the full compliation of articles here: https://gegenwind.info/175/sonderheft_wehrmacht.pdf

Needless to say there is no real proof for these claims. Schele just pulled it out of her dusty crevice and proclaimed that we "must assume" this figure to be correct, while in the next line admitting she has no way to prove what was sexual contact was consenual or not. We have no reason to believe this figure.

Even if it were true, these kinds of horrific acts permeated both sides of the conflict except that the rape of German women continued in the Soviet zome of occupation well into the late 1940s, years after the war was over. Moreover, two wrongs don't make a right, the crimes of the Red Army are not "okay" or irrelevant because German soldiers "did it too".

---

What resulted in these final months of the war was a degree of atrocity and bloodshed which can only be compared to that of the German crimes committed earlier. In East Prussia civilians were routinely rounded up and executed, their houses burnt, and crops and livestock destroyed. As many as 1.5 million incidences of rape are estimated to have occurred during the initial five month occupation of East Prussia alone.8 Similar events unfolded in Silesia, Pomerania and Vienna. Torture, looting, rape, and murder became a common occurrence and affected virtually every German citizen who lay in the Red Army’s path. When the Wehrmacht’s “defense in depth” was breached at the Seelow Heights in late April 1945, nothing stood in the way of Russian troops advancing on Berlin. In the Nazi capital, the Soviet crimes committed against German civilians culminated in one of the most devastating and tragic episodes of human brutality occurring over a limited period. As the Soviets neared the Reichstag the rear echelon troops ravaged the civilian population. With no overall central leadership and few disciplined regiments to safeguard the people, Berlin lay at the mercy of Russian soldiers. Not only were tens of thousands of non-combatant civilians killed, it is also believed that anywhere between 50,000 and 100,000 German women were raped by Soviet soldiers, 10,000 of whom died, mostly by suicide.9 Recent sources estimate that a total of two million German women were raped by Soviet soldiers during the final months of the war.10

Mikkel Dack, "Crimes Committed by Soviet Soldiers Against German Civilians, 1944-1945: A Historiographical Analysis", Journal of Military and Strategic Studies, Vol 10 (2008), No. 4 pp. 4-5. http://www.glscott.org/uploads/2/1/3/3/21330938/crimes_committed_by_soviet_soldiers.pdf

Books on the topic of Soviet and Allied rape against German women:

[Hektor]

This thread is not about the Holocaust. It doesn't belong in here. Should rather be posted there: viewforum.php?f=20

Indeed not 'Holocaust Related'. WW2 related, I'd agree.

It's also a rather preposterous claim being made. The USSR had reconquered their previous territory and more. They were in charge of it for decades afterwards. If there was any significant number of rapes during German/Axis occupation.... One can be pretty damned sure, that they would have exploited it, trying to get as much mileage out of it as possible... But they didn't. They resorted to accusations, they had no evidence for neither.

And then '10 million'... Now how did they arrive at such a number, given that there is no documentary material available for this? Thumb-sucking... Just like with the rest of accusations being made. It seems to be the old trick using the 'golden mean' fallacy. Throw in the 10 million figure. If people really don't believe you... Many of them still will deem a 5 million figure to be realistic.

The Allied crimes against German people were mostly brushed under the carpet after the initial time of occupation. There was some limited dissemination of information with regards to German women being raped by Red Army personnel. Allowable with the start of the Cold War in Europe at the time... But both Western and Easter Allies weren't to eager to expose the other side too much neither. So knowledge about Allied crime mostly remained within private circles. Meaning Germans who experienced this talking to their friends and family. It did become sort of common knowledge, though. I recall several older Germans talking about it on various occasion. It's sort of hearsay. But it is of the more credible kind of hearsay, simply because they didn't learn this from school or mass media. In other words. The congruity of what they told indicated a common pattern of Allied behavior towards German civilians. This was later also confirmed by older people from other countries that happened to be occupied by the Axis. And well, I also learned how Allied personnel treated non-German civilians. As the saying went. "We will survive another occupation, but if we survive another liberation, I'm not that sure.".

I'm pretty certain that Allied officials were aware of how the common public did experience both occupation and 'liberation', hence the urge for skewing the record in their favor.

[hermod]

The Allied crimes against German people were mostly brushed under the carpet after the initial time of occupation. There was some limited dissemination of information with regards to German women being raped by Red Army personnel. Allowable with the start of the Cold War in Europe at the time... But both Western and Easter Allies weren't to eager to expose the other side too much neither. So knowledge about Allied crime mostly remained within private circles. Meaning Germans who experienced this talking to their friends and family. It did become sort of common knowledge, though. I recall several older Germans talking about it on various occasion. It's sort of hearsay. But it is of the more credible kind of hearsay, simply because they didn't learn this from school or mass media. In other words. The congruity of what they told indicated a common pattern of Allied behavior towards German civilians. This was later also confirmed by older people from other countries that happened to be occupied by the Axis. And well, I also learned how Allied personnel treated non-German civilians. As the saying went. "We will survive another occupation, but if we survive another liberation, I'm not that sure.".

I'm pretty certain that Allied officials were aware of how the common public did experience both occupation and 'liberation', hence the urge for skewing the record in their favor.

The Eastern Allies' crimes against German people were brushed under the carpet by distracting public attention from the whole subject through the concoction and dissemination of ghastly atrocity propaganda stories, including those now known as the "Holocaust."

https://postimg.cc/y34jNF9t

The Western Allies also perpetrated numerous rapes during WWII, and not only in Germany...

LA FACE CACHÉE DES LIBÉRATEURS
(French documentary)

Derrière les célèbres images de liesse où se mêlent les soldats américains et une population ivre de reconnaissance, se cache une autre histoire, moins glorieuse, de la Libération. Celle des milliers de femmes victimes de viols perpétrés par des GI's. L'ouverture aux Etats-Unis, en Angleterre, en France et en Allemagne, d'archives judiciaires longtemps cadenassées, permet désormais de prendre la mesure de l'ampleur d'un phénomène dont l'évocation est longtemps demeurée tabou : celui des viols et crimes commis par les soldats américains en Europe entre 1944 et 1945.

Translation:

The Dark Side of the Liberators

Behind the well-known pictures of jubilation in which American soldiers mingle with a population exhilarated by gratitude, there is another, less glorious, story of the Liberation: the story of the thousands of women victims of rape perpetrated by GIs. The opening in the United States, England, France and Germany, of long-closed judicial archives, now makes it possible to assess the extent of a phenomenon whose mention has remained a taboo for a long time: that of the rapes and crimes perpetrated by American soldiers in Europe between 1944 and 1945.

[Truthseeking]

To Odium, thank you very much. It all makes sense now because that "influencer" on Youtube started by saying that he was posting references for his claims at the bottom. They weren't clickable, but they were readable. And the address for his claim about the 10 million German rapes of Soviet women was that gegenwind webiste. I went there. It's in German. At least, I think it was German. But, I couldn't find the page he referred to. But now, thanks to you, I found it.

And I see what you mean. One guy threw out a glib figure of one million babies born of Wehrmacht fathers (a mere a lip-flap) and then Ms. Schele took the ball and ran with it, believing the million, and then multiplying by 10 according to what she believes about conception-rates from random sex. And on that flimsy, unbankable, basis, viola, German soldiers committed 10 million rapes in the Soviet Union. The audacity of it is astounding.

[Hektor]

....
And I see what you mean. One guy threw out a glib figure of one million babies born of Wehrmacht fathers (a mere a lip-flap) and then Ms. Schele took the ball and ran with it, believing the million, and then multiplying by 10 according to what she believes about conception-rates from random sex. And on that flimsy, unbankable, basis, viola, German soldiers committed 10 million rapes in the Soviet Union. The audacity of it is astounding.

And this also assumes that the babies were from non-consensual sexual relations. Matter of fact is however that German soldiers often had girl friends in occupied territories. The relationships weren't always sexual in nature, but when then they were consensual.

It's also funny that they'd then argue "We got several cases of German soldiers found guilty of rape" That proves German soldiers were rapists...

OK, could you please exchange "German soldiers" with "African Asylum Seekers", "Islamic Refugees" or "Jewish Holocaust Survivors".... And then tell me, whether you still think that your mode of argument is a valid one. You'd have to demonstrate that things were "beyond normal" and also consider, if there was social or political approval of the crimes... Oh, and lets compare it with the Allied side as well.... Did you do that? Or did you focus only on one side, which reveals your selection bias.

[Hektor]

The Allied crimes against German people were mostly brushed under the carpet after the initial time of occupation. There was some limited dissemination of i....
I'm pretty certain that Allied officials were aware of how the common public did experience both occupation and 'liberation', hence the urge for skewing the record in their favor.

The Eastern Allies' crimes against German people were brushed under the carpet by distracting public attention from the whole subject through the concoction and dissemination of ghastly atrocity propaganda stories, including those now known as the "Holocaust."

https://postimg.cc/y34jNF9t

The Western Allies also perpetrated numerous rapes during WWII, and not only in Germany...

LA FACE CACHÉE DES LIBÉRATEURS
(French documentary)

Derrière les célèbres images de liesse où se mêlent les soldats américains et une population ivre de reconnaissance, se cache une autre histoire, moins glorieuse, de la Libération. Celle des milliers de femmes victimes de viols perpétrés par des GI's. L'ouverture aux Etats-Unis, en Angleterre, en France et en Allemagne, d'archives judiciaires longtemps cadenassées, permet désormais de prendre la mesure de l'ampleur d'un phénomène dont l'évocation est longtemps demeurée tabou : celui des viols et crimes commis par les soldats américains en Europe entre 1944 et 1945.

Translation:

The Dark Side of the Liberators

Behind the well-known pictures of jubilation in which American soldiers mingle with a population exhilarated by gratitude, there is another, less glorious, story of the Liberation: the story of the thousands of women victims of rape perpetrated by GIs. The opening in the United States, England, France and Germany, of long-closed judicial archives, now makes it possible to assess the extent of a phenomenon whose mention has remained a taboo for a long time: that of the rapes and crimes perpetrated by American soldiers in Europe between 1944 and 1945.

I knew a Belgian Doctor that was in his. studies during WW2. One of his first Surgical operations was on a Belgian girl that was raped and bayonetted (into the vagina) by American soldiers. No such stuff during the German occupation... Which his family wasn't too fond of.

I used to know a number of elderly people from European Countries that told me similar stories. What they usually didn't conclude with was that the present day narrative about WW2 did not reflect this... Quite to the contrary... The accusations... Especially against Germany.... grew over time.... Far less accusations were made e.g. against Italy or any other Axis country... I recall some being made against the Japanese, but even that was low.

[hermod]

The accusations... Especially against Germany.... grew over time.... Far less accusations were made e.g. against Italy or any other Axis country... I recall some being made against the Japanese, but even that was low.

(((They))) don't need Italian and Japanese criminals to get carte blanche for the seizure and ethnic cleansing of Palestine (Zionist agenda) and to flood Western countries with countless immigrants on a ceaseless basis (Globalist agenda). But (((they))) crucially need fictitious cartoonish 'Nazi' monsters for that, don't (((they)))?

[Hektor]

The accusations... Especially against Germany.... grew over time.... Far less accusations were made e.g. against Italy or any other Axis country... I recall some being made against the Japanese, but even that was low.

(((They))) don't need Italian and Japanese criminals to get carte blanche for the seizure and ethnic cleansing of Palestine (Zionist agenda) and to flood Western countries with countless immigrants on a ceaseless basis (Globalist agenda). But (((they))) crucially need fictitious cartoonish 'Nazi' monsters for that, don't (((they)))?

Is it about the 'supposed victim' or is it about the accused in those cases.

Yes, Germany had an explicit policy regarding Jews (to physically remove them from their territory and sphere of influence). Italy wasn't as explicit. The Japanese even less. Not sure about the other Axis country. But Finland didn't seem to have any policy on Jews at all.


On the other hand Germany was seen as the biggest threat to hegemony and it was also the nation envied most by the others.
In Jewish teachings Germany was/is declared "Amalek", which sets it apart from other Nations... And it's a legit target for mistreatment and genocide.

[hermod]

Is it about the 'supposed victim' or is it about the accused in those cases.

Yes, Germany had an explicit policy regarding Jews (to physically remove them from their territory and sphere of influence). Italy wasn't as explicit. The Japanese even less. Not sure about the other Axis country. But Finland didn't seem to have any policy on Jews at all.


On the other hand Germany was seen as the biggest threat to hegemony and it was also the nation envied most by the others.
In Jewish teachings Germany was/is declared "Amalek", which sets it apart from other Nations... And it's a legit target for mistreatment and genocide.

I think it's more about the supposed victim. Zionists never disliked anti-Semitism. On the contrary, fueling anti-Semitism in order to force the emigration and resettlement of Europe's Jews always was at the core of their scheme. And the Zionists of the 1930s and 1940s needed anti-Semitism even more than their predecessors because the Zionist seizure of Palestine was failing and the British government of that time was even compelled to abort their colonial enterprise because of a growing Arab resistance in Palestine and a significant Muslim anti-Zionist antagonism throughout the British Empire. In May 1939, the British government even passed a White Paper explicitly precluding the establishment of any Jewish state in Palestine and planning the establishment of an Arab-dominated unitary State of Palestine before May 1949. In other words, the Zionists of the late 1930s crucially needed a second world war and its predictable collection of atrocity propaganda lies aka "The Holocaust" for the success of their land-grabbing enterprise in Palestine.

https://postimg.cc/4KLB9SWY

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[Turpitz]

This is one thing I have never heard the Germans being accused of. I was thinking about this very subject a few years back when reading about the horrific, and rampant, raping of Vietnamese girls "babysans" by Americans in Vietnam.

[Hektor]

This is one thing I have never heard the Germans being accused of. I was thinking about this very subject a few years back when reading about the horrific, and rampant, raping of Vietnamese girls "babysans" by Americans in Vietnam.

Because that would immediately bring up the astronomically more frequent rapes by Allied soldiers, especially during 1944-1945. This was virtually never punished and also a way to terrorize the civilian population and break their will to resist (as far as Axis, Germans) were concerned. There were rapes in the low countries, France but also in Eastern Europe of course. The subject was even more taboo than the rapes in Germany, which are guesstimated to have had 2 million victims. This was a taboo subject during the decades after WW2. But it came up during the past 20 years occasionally. I'd see bringing up 'German rapes' in that light, as a means to suppress debate about this. They can't allow that the perpetrator-victim scheme is obfuscated too much. To maintain the power relations established after WW2 the can't allow the narrative to change too much.

Rape by German soldiers was prosecuted rigorously and was also far less common than with the Allies. It was also perceived by the civilian population that way. From their the saying "We can survive another occupation, but whether we survive another liberation I don't know".