The Official Explanation of the Preussian Blue Bleeding Through the Brick Work

[Pon]

So, David Irving, in the trial of Deborah Lipstedt, argued that the cyanid compounds doesn't only penetrate a fraction of a human hair into the wall of the alleged gas chamber. This was the main argument that the results from the chemical analysis were not valid, so is there a official explanation of why the preussian blue was found to have penetrated the brickwork to even the outside bricks of the delousing chamber? Does it have to do with the fact that lice requires 25 times the amount of cyanide? But that wouldn't ring well with the general rule that the chemist said that it doesn't penetrate very much at all into the wall. Was it weather conditions that saturated the bricks or something?

This, I think, is very important to sort out, even though it might not be a nail in the coffin of the gassing theory of the holocaust (some cyanide compound was, as I understand it, found even though they grinded the whole specimen).

[Hannover]

This, I think, is very important to sort out, even though it might not be a nail in the coffin of the gassing theory of the holocaust (some cyanide compound was, as I understand it, found even though they grinded the whole specimen).

It's been sorted out with ease.
see;
Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4111

ex.:
The Rudolf Report, Expert Report on Chemical and Technical Aspects of the ‘Gas Chambers’ of Auschwitz:
http://vho.org/GB/Books/trr/index.html
- 6. Formation and Stability of Iron Blue
- 7. Zyklon B for the Killing of Human Beings

and:
Green, Mathis refuted / cyanide: lice, humans, & more:
viewtopic.php?t=267

- The false argument, "it takes more cyanide to kill insects than it does humans, hence low HCN residue in the alleged gas chambers" is refuted by Germar Rudolf here:
https://codoh.com/library/document/925/

- Hannover

No alleged human remains of millions in allegedly known locations, no 'holocaust'.

[Lamprecht]

Please view:

Porosity of building materials used in construction
viewtopic.php?t=12730

Also:
Germar Rudolf addresses the cyanide penetration claim:

1. It is a fact that the walls of the disinfestation chambers in Auschwitz, Birkenau, Stutthof, and Majdanek are saturated with cyanide compounds, and this not only superficially, but into the depth of the masonry, as I have proved by taking samples from different depths of the wall, compare in this regard especially my samples no. 11, 13, 17, 19b, and 23. They prove that hydrogen cyanide can rather easily reach deep layers of plaster and mortar. But even the other samples taken from the surface prove that Prof. Roth's allegation is wrong: Provided that most of the cyanide detectable today is present in the form of iron cyanide (Iron Blue and other cyanoferrates), as Prof. Roth assumes himself, his thesis would mean that 10% to 75% of the iron content of these samples are located in the upper 10 micrometer of my samples (0.010 mm), i.e., they are located in less then 1% of the entire sample mass, and the rest of the sample would have been massively deprived of iron. How this migration of a major portion of iron to a thin surface layer would have happened is inexplicable to me.

2. Furthermore, expert literature is detailed in that
a. hydrogen cyanide is a extremely mobile chemical compound with physical properties comparable to water,[159]
b. which can quite easily penetrate through thick, porous layers like walls.[98]

3. In addition, it is generally known that cement and lime mortar are highly porous materials, comparable for instance with sponges.[160] In such materials, there does not exist something like a defined layer of 0.01 mm beyond which hydrogen cyanide could not diffuse, as there can also be no reason, why water could not penetrate a sponge deeper than a millimeter. Steam, for example, which behaves physically comparable to hydrogen cyanide, can very easily penetrate walls.

4. Finally, the massive discolorations of the outside walls of the disinfestation chambers in Birkenau and Stutthof, as shown on the cover of this book, are clearly visible and conclusive evidence for the fact how easily hydrogen cyanide and its soluble derivatives can penetrate such walls.

Some Technical and Chemical Considerations about the 'Gas Chambers' of Auschwitz and Birkenau
https://codoh.com/library/document/925/


Also, from: http://www.vho.org/GB/c/GR/CharacterAssassins.html

[Pon]

Hannover: The link you gave to Rudolf actually states the opposite:

Quote of the statement derived from the link you gave:
"Insects and especially their eggs are considerably less sensitive to HCN. For the most part it is necessary to expose them for several hours to rather high concentrations (0.3 to 2%/vol.) before their death is certain."

Which, I think, is the fact of it, it takes more to kill lice and insects, I think there is other sources that suggest this also but will refrain from linking them as that wasn't my main question that I wanted answers to.

My inquiry was as to what is the official explanation of why preussian blue had penetrated through the entire wall, when they also say that it only penetrates some micrometres. I only got the "other side" explanation of porous material, surely the scientists must have given a explanation somewhere? I've read the trial material and I don't recall they gave a good explanation (but I may be wrong, it is a very long trial after all).

Thank you for your responses, I will read it more carefully as well to see if it indeed was adressed, in order to make it easier for me though it would be nice if you could give a small citation with the link, instead of only the link.

[Hannover]

Hannover: The link you gave to Rudolf actually states the opposite:

Quote of the statement derived from the link you gave:
"Insects and especially their eggs are considerably less sensitive to HCN. For the most part it is necessary to expose them for several hours to rather high concentrations (0.3 to 2%/vol.) before their death is certain."

Which, I think, is the fact of it, it takes more to kill lice and insects, I think there is other sources that suggest this also but will refrain from linking them as that wasn't my main question that I wanted answers to.

From the link I cited, https://codoh.com/library/document/925/, which you apparently did not read, Rudolf said:

As mentioned before, humans are more sensitive to HCN than are insects. Holocaust advocates argue that the execution gassings were performed using only very little hydrogen cyanide, and that they did not take nearly as long as the delousing fumigations of material objects, which often took many hours.[154] These two factors - low concentrations of HCN and shorter fumigation times - resulted in a lack of residue formation.[10][13][15][155]

If one recalls our previous findings regarding the quantities allegedly used (similar to those for delousing fumigations) and the problems of ventilation, which would have taken hours, if not days, then it is quite clear that this assumption needs wrong premises. The results of the chemical analyses can therefore not be explained in this way.

G. Wellers was the first to advance the theory that the victims had absorbed all the hydrogen cyanide by respiration.[16] This theory has already been clearly refuted in section 4.2.2.1.

And of course we're talking about 2000 people per alleged gassing session which are claimed to have been practically continuous during much of the alleged period; not one louse, not one person, not occasional; meaning the amount of HCN / Zyklon-B used would necessarily have been enormous, resulting in massive amounts of cyanide residue .... if the impossible claims were factual.

Also, concerning your statement: "Which, I think, is the fact of it, it takes more to kill lice and insects", I also note that you dodged:
The Rudolf Report, which I posted:
http://vho.org/GB/Books/trr/7.html
pertinent sections:
7. Zyklon B for the Killing of Human Beings
7.1. Toxicological Effect of HCN
excerpt:

Insects and, in particular, insect eggs, are considerably less sensitive to hydrogen cyanide than warm-blooded animals. On the one hand, this is due to their greater resistance (slower metabolism). On the other hand, this is due to the fact that lethal concentrations of the gas must penetrate every crack and fissure, no matter how tiny. Every hem and seam of all the garment in the property to be fumigated must be filled with the poison in order to kill, for example, every concealed louse. Warm-blooded animals, by contrast, are rapidly exposed to high concentrations of the gas, not only because of their size, but above all due to their breathing through lungs.

and:
7.3.1.3.2. Excursus 1: Poisoning or Suffocation?
excerpt:

"The supply figures of the Auschwitz camp can be found in the protocols of the International Military Tribunal Nuremberg. In total, they reached some 19,000 kg during the years 1942 and 1943.[157] The total supplied amount during the entire existence of the camp from late 1940 to early 1945 will hardly have exceeded 40 tons. According to Pressac's statement that not 2-5% of this was used for killings, 800 to 2,000 kg of the total delivery was used for extermination of humans.

But when dividing up this amount of Zyklon B for one million people allegedly killed with it, with 1,000 victims per gassing-the 'gas chambers' (morgues I) of crematorium II and III could hardly hold 1,000 persons* per execution-only roughly 0.8 to 2 kg HCN was available for each gassing. With the morgues' free volume of roughly 430 m3,[466] and after all hydrogen cyanide had evaporated from the carrier (after more than an hour), 800 to 2,000 g of hydrogen cyanide would result in a theoretical end concentration of 1.86 to 4.65 g per m3, which means that the concentration during the first five or ten minutes was much lower.

If, on the other hand, one million victims were killed according to the eyewitness statements, i.e., with high concentrations in a few minutes, those 1,000 gassing would have required 1,000×20 kg = 20 tons of Zyklon B, or at least 50% of the entire Zyklon B delivery to the camp.

* [There are numerous claims that 2000 per batch were allegedly gassed, making the gassings claim even more ridiculous, if possible.]

- Hannover

No alleged human remains of millions in allegedly known locations to see, no 'holocaust'.

[Lamprecht]

Hannover: The link you gave to Rudolf actually states the opposite:

Quote of the statement derived from the link you gave:
"Insects and especially their eggs are considerably less sensitive to HCN. For the most part it is necessary to expose them for several hours to rather high concentrations (0.3 to 2%/vol.) before their death is certain."

Which, I think, is the fact of it, it takes more to kill lice and insects, I think there is other sources that suggest this also but will refrain from linking them as that wasn't my main question that I wanted answers to.

But since they did not allegedly use any device to cause the Zyklon-B pellets to outgas quickly, they would have had to use extra Zyklon-B to kill all of the 2,000 people allegedly being gassed, and it would still be outgassing long after they were dead.

See the device used in many delousing chambers, that would blow hot air on the bellets:

My inquiry was as to what is the official explanation of why preussian blue had penetrated through the entire wall, when they also say that it only penetrates some micrometres. I only got the "other side" explanation of porous material, surely the scientists must have given a explanation somewhere? I've read the trial material and I don't recall they gave a good explanation (but I may be wrong, it is a very long trial after all).

Thank you for your responses, I will read it more carefully as well to see if it indeed was adressed, in order to make it easier for me though it would be nice if you could give a small citation with the link, instead of only the link.

They are saying that because they want people to believe it to be true, not because it is actually true. Quite obviously it is not true, as pointed out in the various links.
An "Expert" testified that it was true, probably knowing that it was not, and that lends it credibility to the court. Leuchter's report was dismissed by the court because he was not a qualified chemist. This is what is called an "Appeal to authority" fallacy.

[Breker]

Mr. / Ms. Pon tells us:

My inquiry was as to what is the official explanation of why preussian blue had penetrated through the entire wall, when they also say that it only penetrates some micrometres. I only got the "other side" explanation of porous material, surely the scientists must have given a explanation somewhere? I've read the trial material and I don't recall they gave a good explanation (but I may be wrong, it is a very long trial after all).

Who is this "they" that you claim "say that it only penetrates some micrometres"?
We rather expect you to be more specific at this forum.
Thank you.
B.

[Pon]

Hannover:

From the link I cited, https://codoh.com/library/document/925/, which you apparently did not read, Rudolf said:

I read some of it, but it was a rather lengthy text and I didn't know what to look for really. Either way, the quote you stated is, in fact, not the official explanation, which is rather that they probably used higher concentrations than the minimum 300ppm required to kill maybe a particularly weak human (as safety figures often, as they should, directs itself to the weakest link or the most dangerous scenario), also coupled with that it needed less time because of that and that they cleaned the chamber after each use because of excremation (maybe lice poop too when they die but at least we don't notice). While killing lice took hours though, killing humans at the same concentration would have been down to tens of minutes. There's also a argument that the amount of carbon dioxide from the people in the chamber would have inhibited the formation of prussian blue as it would have changed the pH level.


I thought you refuted that a higher concentration was needed to kill lice, if you'd been more specific in your refutation I would have seen my error (and known what to look for), but as you see the official explanation dodges those issues (I think it is because of revisionists that they have investigated it to such length as to be able to).

7.3.1.3.2. Excursus 1: Poisoning or Suffocation?
excerpt:

This was a really good argument, something I will look into, haven't heard about it before. Thanks.



Lamprecht:
I know it is a fact that the walls are saturated, I wanted to know the official non-revisionist explanation, or do they just avoid looking at it?


Breker:

Who is this "they" that you claim "say that it only penetrates some micrometres"?
We rather expect you to be more specific at this forum.
Thank you.
B.

It's a he, actually, I did not get to specify the gender when I registered. "They" refer to the Deborah Lipstadt side of experts, they, in turn, was refering to the chemist that analyzed Leuchter's samples, sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

I get the sense of "we vs. them" from you, I am ready to, although I believe in the holocaust for the most part, accept that things might be wrong about the holocaust, revisionists doesn't need to deny the entire thing happened do they? I've come across some inconsistencies and I thought this was the obvious place, both for official explanations (even complete holocaust-deniers got to know their enemy don't they?) and for revisionist explanations. I got one such argument which was pretty interesting from Hannover regarding the amount of Zyklon B that was recorded. To be clear, I'm not "one of those" that think that the holocaust shouldn't be debated, rather the opposite, it brings forth a lot of information to us that are interested.


Thanks to all for your answers.

[Moderator]

Pon, you responded in answer to a very specific question:

"They" refer to the Deborah Lipstadt side of experts, they, in turn, was refering to the chemist that analyzed Leuchter's samples, sorry if I wasn't clear enough."

But Breker asked:

Who is this "they" that you claim "say that it only penetrates some micrometres"?

Please, no dodging at this forum, answer the question. IOW, who is this "chemist"?
Thanks, M1

[Lamprecht]

That claim was made by Prof. Dr. James Roth of Alpha Analytic Laboratories. And others just repeat it, citing Roth as an authority on the topic. Roth managed the lab that Leuchter sent his samples to. Roth claimed that the cyanide would only penetrate a few micrometers, and therefore the samples were meaningless because only the surface of the "homicidal gas chamber" samples would have necessarily had traces. Of course this is bogus, as explained by Rudolf above.


Pon:

I know it is a fact that the walls are saturated, I wanted to know the official non-revisionist explanation, or do they just avoid looking at it?

From what I have heard, they claim:
- The cyanide doesn't penetrate very deeply
- The delousing chamber walls were exposed to much more HCN for longer periods of time because it's harder to kill lice than humans with it
- The difference in type of masonry used

All have been addressed here in this thread, I believe

[Hannover]

Pons, since you have stated here that you essentially believe the storyline, and specifically that you buy into the 'gas chambers' narrative, I must ask you, how do you think the alleged gas chambers allegedly worked?

What was the step by step procedure of allegedly gassing people in allegedly minutes and then repeating that process over & over again as is claimed within the time frame alleged?

And, why don't we see the alleged millions of human remains that are said by "The Industry" to exist in known locations.

Thanks. Hannover

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the ridiculous 'holocaust' storyline is the message.

Science over impossible propaganda.

[Pon]

Moderator:
Yes, Dr. James Roth was the chemist, I didn't think I needed to be that specific, in my defence it was pretty easy to look up, either way it was clumpsy of me and not a way to dodge anything.

Lamprecht:
He made that comment in the Mr. Death documentary, I am not a chemist myself so I tend to rely on qualified chemists, and leuchter seemed to think he was qualified as he entrusted the samples to him. My guess is that he didn't know enough of the material to actually know if it was porous enough to cyanide to penetrate (I think it is agreed upon that it is a surface reaction though, and if it hadn't been a porous material the figures he gave were probably correct). It is, after all, only afterwards that we learn that it had penetrated through the entire wall of the delousing chamber, not something he should have been expected to know at that time (my opinion).

Either way, you are correct that Roth's comments are not something that should lightly be passed on as truth without the appendix of if's and but's (if the material isn't porous, but can be penetrated in such and such conditions).

Is it concluded that there was a difference in the masonry in the alleged gas chamber than in the delousing chamber? It would also seem to me that if it was indeed a gas chamber then the walls would have to be coated with something in order to be able to be cleaned properly, so that is also a possibility, and something I have a vague remembrance of being discussed in the trial (I've read a lot of material), this is just speculation though as it could have been discussed in relation to something else.

Hannover:
Buy into the gas chamber is a bit oversimplified, the evidence that I've seen seem to lean on it, it also seem to serve as a good explanation for the numbers of victims (which, as I understand it, isn't dependent on the killing method but largely dependent on the amount of people actually missing), also the general concensus seem to support it, someone like me, who isn't a holocaust expert, would be inclined to think that there was gas chambers without making much effort to buy into it. To be fair that is the case for all "status quo" I guess so I'm trying to keep an open mind.

As to how I think they worked, I think the official explanation would be that they gathered the jews in the gas chambers, shut the door, and dropped the pellets from chimney-like structures on the roof into the gas-chambers, witnesses describes a wire-mesh column that spread the pellets (by them bumping into the sides of the wire-mesh) so that they were more evenly distributed into the room. They also had a movable mechanism to collect the pellets at the bottom of the column so that they could take them out, leaving only the dispersed pellets in the room. After tens of minutes (maybe 15-30 minutes?) the victims would be dead or near-death (at least unconscious as witnesses tells that the screaming stopped) the room would have to be ventilated and the bodies dragged out (how much time that would take I haven't got a clue, but my guess is that many sonderkommando jews were participating in the job), someone then cleaned the room with some chemicals and a hose (details are unknown to me) to get rid of excrement, the bodies were taken to the cremation ovens, then I guess they would await the next batch of people. I think that's the best explanation that I can think of right now. I don't know the timeframe that it took for a batch of people to arrive and for the next to arrive, that would be something I would have to look up.

As far as I know the ashes were dumped into swamps, rivers or lakes. Buried remains were also excavated by the germans to get rid of evidence. There might be remains still there but for religious reasons these remains can't be excavated (afaik the jews have a law against disturbing graves). Surface methods are available though, and I think that such "excavations" have been done in treblinka.

This became a rather lengthy post, I've tried to be as careful as possible but there might be mistakes of one kind or another in what I wrote, if there is anything that seems off then please point it out so I can examine it further.

Thanks for your responses, looking forward to your replies!

[Hannover]

Pons:

- Please present what you consider to be proof for the alleged 'Nazi gas chambers'.
Please, no dodging at this forum.

Just saying that it is the "general consensus" doesn't cut it in debate.
"General consensus" claimed that witchcraft was real & proven.

- You said that it is "largely dependent on the amount of people actually missing".

I suggest you educate yourself on the narrative that you're trying to defend.
That narrative says that the millions that were supposedly gassed are not missing at all, but that their alleged remains are in enormous mass graves in allegedly known locations. Yet there are no such remains.

- As for your claimed gassing procedure, you have dodged once again posted information which shreds your impossible nonsense.
You ask questions, we give them to you, but then you dodge. What are you afraid of?

- Here's more which refutes every step in the alleged gassing process that you claim:

The alleged Auschwitz gas chambers & alleged Auschwitz homicidal gassing process analyzed & debunked here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11143&p=83723&hilit=model+asmarques#p83723

Once again you claim impossible nonsense about magically disappearing human remains which conflict with The Industry claims that you try to defend, ex.:

Sobibor ‘monument’ supposedly over the remains of 250,000 'gassed Jews, actual remains of the alleged 250,000 cannot be shown.


Alleged “ash pond” for an alleged 1.1M gassed Jew remains at Auschwitz, however these alleged remains cannot be shown to exist.


Alleged location of Treblinka mass graves / remains of 900,000 gassed Jews according to Treblinka officials, no alleged remains exist.


photo from ‘Surviving Treblinka’, by Samuel Willenberg.

It is captioned: “crane lifting corpses destined for cremation”.
Do you see any “corpses”?

- Hannover

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the laughable 'holocaust' storyline is the message.

[Lamprecht]

Lamprecht:
He made that comment in the Mr. Death documentary, I am not a chemist myself so I tend to rely on qualified chemists, and leuchter seemed to think he was qualified as he entrusted the samples to him. My guess is that he didn't know enough of the material to actually know if it was porous enough to cyanide to penetrate (I think it is agreed upon that it is a surface reaction though, and if it hadn't been a porous material the figures he gave were probably correct). It is, after all, only afterwards that we learn that it had penetrated through the entire wall of the delousing chamber, not something he should have been expected to know at that time (my opinion).

Leuchter was rushed and only had about two weeks to complete his report for the Zuendel trial. I suggest reading into the history of it in the links provided above. Germar Rudolf is a certified chemist and followed in Leuchter's footsteps, publishing his work in what is known as "The Rudolf Report." This report has since been published in a more expanded and updated version, here:
The Chemistry of Auschwitz—The Technology and Toxicology of Zyklon B and the Gas Chambers – A Crime-Scene Investigation
https://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/02-tcoa.pdf

There is also a video:
The Chemistry of Auschwitz
https://codoh.com/library/document/4730/


The "Leuchter Report" was not written by a chemist, as you have pointed out, and was done hastily so it could be done in time for the Zuendel trial. The Leuchter report currently is republished in a fifth, corrected and enhanced edition by Germar Rudolf; you can find it on the Holocaust Handbooks website. In it, he adds footnotes and corrects some mistakes that Leuchter made. The Leuchter report really just a historical document, Leuchter was the first to test cyanide residue in Auschwitz buildings, and his work is important but only in that context. I would refer to the PDF above which goes in-depth into the question you're asking, or any of the other links posted here.

Either way, you are correct that Roth's comments are not something that should lightly be passed on as truth without the appendix of if's and but's (if the material isn't porous, but can be penetrated in such and such conditions).

The porosity of the material is confirmed in my first post, there is a link to a thread on this very subject.

Is it concluded that there was a difference in the masonry in the alleged gas chamber than in the delousing chamber?

Yes, see the image/table at the bottom of my first post in this thread.

It would also seem to me that if it was indeed a gas chamber then the walls would have to be coated with something in order to be able to be cleaned properly, so that is also a possibility, and something I have a vague remembrance of being discussed in the trial (I've read a lot of material), this is just speculation though as it could have been discussed in relation to something else.

I do not see why it would have to be. Have you read the links provided?
The walls of the alleged homicidal gas chambers are concrete and cement plaster. It does not need to be coated to be cleaned with a hose.

Hannover:
Buy into the gas chamber is a bit oversimplified, the evidence that I've seen seem to lean on it, it also seem to serve as a good explanation for the numbers of victims (which, as I understand it, isn't dependent on the killing method but largely dependent on the amount of people actually missing), also the general concensus seem to support it, someone like me, who isn't a holocaust expert, would be inclined to think that there was gas chambers without making much effort to buy into it. To be fair that is the case for all "status quo" I guess so I'm trying to keep an open mind.

I know this is not directed towards me, but this "Consensus" is enforced by law and also threats and intimidation. If a person comes out publicly and says "No Jew was gassed at Auschwitz" they can be arrested in some countries, but in others they will have their lives ruined.

See:
Debating: Responding to arguments claiming there are no "reliable/respected sources" denying the holocaust?
viewtopic.php?t=12190

As for the number of people allegedly missing, what is this based on? Census reports? These numbers are not a good way to determine how many Jews died, especially at a specific place like Auschwitz. See:

Issues with post-WWII Jewish census figures
viewtopic.php?t=12735

As to how I think they worked, I think the official explanation would be that they gathered the jews in the gas chambers, shut the door, and dropped the pellets from chimney-like structures on the roof into the gas-chambers, witnesses describes a wire-mesh column that spread the pellets (by them bumping into the sides of the wire-mesh) so that they were more evenly distributed into the room. They also had a movable mechanism to collect the pellets at the bottom of the column so that they could take them out, leaving only the dispersed pellets in the room. After tens of minutes (maybe 15-30 minutes?) the victims would be dead or near-death (at least unconscious as witnesses tells that the screaming stopped) the room would have to be ventilated and the bodies dragged out (how much time that would take I haven't got a clue, but my guess is that many sonderkommando jews were participating in the job), someone then cleaned the room with some chemicals and a hose (details are unknown to me) to get rid of excrement, the bodies were taken to the cremation ovens, then I guess they would await the next batch of people. I think that's the best explanation that I can think of right now. I don't know the timeframe that it took for a batch of people to arrive and for the next to arrive, that would be something I would have to look up.

Yet the ventilation system (designed for a morgue) would not have functioned very well under these alleged conditions. See:

Pressac’s Solution – Gas Chamber Ventilation
viewtopic.php?t=5493#p92090

And spraying the walls with a hose, causing them to be moist, would have only increased their tendency to absorb HCN and produce iron cyanide. This is pointed out in the links provided.

As far as I know the ashes were dumped into swamps, rivers or lakes. Buried remains were also excavated by the germans to get rid of evidence. There might be remains still there but for religious reasons these remains can't be excavated (afaik the jews have a law against disturbing graves). Surface methods are available though, and I think that such "excavations" have been done in treblinka.

Yes, Sturdy Colls has allegedly excavated Treblinka. Yet, to date we have no photographic prove of even 0.1% of the alleged "Huge mass graves" -- I wonder why?

Check the following link for some examples of actual mass grave excavations (unrelated to the Holocaust): https://www.google.com/search?q=mass+gr ... t&tbm=isch

Have we seen anything of this sort for Treblinka? Which, if the story was true, would be the largest mass grave site ever excavated in human history...

As for the "Ashes" (actually, human remains are not ash) dumped into swamps, rivers or lakes... that is very convenient. Some claim it was mixed with soil and sold as fertilizer or whatever. "Well they are gone, so you can't see the remains!" But at the camps where the remains were allegedly buried in huge pits, we can not see these remains despite claimed archeological excavations. Why?

See:
Cremated remains, bone ash, and water-solubility // the ash ponds
viewtopic.php?t=12278

I could just as easily accuse you of mass murder, and then say you cremated the remains and dumped them into the ocean. Then what?

[Pon]

Lamprecht:

I do not see why it would have to be. Have you read the links provided?
The walls of the alleged homicidal gas chambers are concrete and cement plaster. It does not need to be coated to be cleaned with a hose.

Ok, I'll see if I find the source of the information, maybe it is in the trial of Deborah and Irving, I only have a vague memory of it. I agree that that it could probably be cleaned with ease even without it, maybe there was a different reason for it, I don't know.


I agree that it shouldn't be criminal to doubt the holocaust and investigate it, or indeed to publish what you find.

As for the number of people allegedly missing, what is this based on? Census reports? These numbers are not a good way to determine how many Jews died, especially at a specific place like Auschwitz.

I don't know what the specifics of Auschwitz is based on (perhaps deportations papers and such documents, I would have look into that more to give a answer, the total number though can be assessed by comparing the statistics, here is a source of such statistics of jews in the world before and after world war 2: https://www.jewishgen.org/databases/givennames/dbdespop.htm.

And spraying the walls with a hose, causing them to be moist, would have only increased their tendency to absorb HCN and produce iron cyanide. This is pointed out in the links provided.

While at the same time washing away the compound.

Have we seen anything of this sort for Treblinka? Which, if the story was true, would be the largest mass grave site ever excavated in human history...

As I explained earlier the jews have a law against disturbing graves which is partly why scientists isn't allowed to excavate, non-ground penetrating methods can be used though (the one I meant) using ground radar and other techniques. I was hoping to find a document which was a very large study of treblinka but it seems to be overshadowed by the Sturdy Colls excavasion (which I didn't know about until now), I will have to find it later instead.

Yet the ventilation system (designed for a morgue) would not have functioned very well under these alleged conditions.

I will have to look at that link later, thanks for providing it.






Hannover:I wasn't dodging anything, you asked me how I thought they worked and I explained how I thought they worked, I have nothing to dodge either, why would I? If you had been more specific I would have produced some evidence (not all evidence that exists, I'm not writing a scientific paper after all), at least as much so you can appreciate my view on it.

As a lot of evidence is made of witness-statements that can be refuted generally I won't go into much detail about such evidence, unless they speak of things that they couldn't have known without actually being there (as the chimneys being corroborated by photographs of the alleged gas chamber from air, also the photo where a train is in the foreground, along with actual evidence of the holes of the roof which can be seen today at the site in the rumble, the earlier photograph where the chimneys aren't visible and the holes have been covered in snow (obviously with something covering the holes) have no real bearing as it indeed was a earlier photograph and can easily be explained with that the chimneys hadn't yet been built, but was brought up by David Erving at the trial as "evidence" that there were no chimneys).

A lot of the evidence for the gas chambers will be found here, (that's the page of the foreword, you go forward from there). I will try to give links and cite the most interesting ones.


Two quotes from this page: https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0200.shtml

On 15th August 1942, a situation plan of the whole POW camp was completed [Document 15], projecting its extension to four construction stages, numbered (from south to north) IV, I, II, III, with a capacity of 60,000, 20,000, 60,000 and 60,000 respectively or a total of 200,000 prisoners.

A capacity for incinerating 200,000 prisoners.

The contract for the construction of the four chimneys for the TWO OTHER KREMATORIEN (IV and V], of a different model from II and III, was awarded to Messrs Robert Koehler on 20th August 1942 [file BW 30/26, pages 52 and 53]. Thus the incineration capacity of the camp was to be increased to 52 muffles while on 19th August 1942 at the evening roll call there were 22,925 prisoners in the camp.

Number of prisoners in the camp: 22,925. I'll let you draw the lines.


https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0204.shtml

2) Regarding the installation of each of the 2 3 muffle furnaces near the “bathing installation for special actions”

Why would there be 2 3 muffle furnaces near the "bathing installation for special actions"? Example of euphemism.


https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0217.shtml

However, in his letter Bischoff made an enormous gaff, explaining to Kammler that though it had unfortunately not been possible to remove the formwork from the ceiling of Leichenkeller 2, because of the Silesian cold, this was of little importance, because the “Vergasungskeller” could be used in its stead [as a normal morgue]. There was the fateful word, “gassing cellar”, written by Bischoff himself and designating Leichenkeller 1, as can be seen after cross-checking with Kirschneck’s report and Prüfer’s simplified “inspection report”. This is the first of the “slips” that SS and civilians could not help making

Gassing cellar.



https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0218.shtml

On 26th February, on a hand-written note, countersigned by Kirschneck, concerning the terra cotta pipes for the drainage of Krematorium II and the supply of doors and windows for Krematorium III, there was mention of the entrance to the future undressing room of Krematorium II (BW 30, Eingang Keller 2), accompanied by tough sketch showing the western access stairway [Document 29]. This is the first trace of this stairway, which could be used only by living people (assuming drawing 2003 was totally respected), which did not appear on the initial drawings but did on the inventory drawing, 2197 [see annex]. At 6.20 pm, SS Second Lieutenant Kirschneck (his name having been written on a copy by Jährling during filing) sent to Topf a telegram requesting the immediate despatch of TEN GAS DETECTORS for BW 3O, i.e. Krematorium II [PMO file BW 30/34, page 48, presented in Part II Chapter 6 "The ventilation systems of Krematorien II and III" and Chapter 8 "Criminal traces"]. This telegram on is own establishes that Messrs Topf, and in particular their representative at Auschwitz, Prüfer, had compromised themselves up to the neck in installing a gas chamber in Krematorium II. Since Topf ’s production consisted essentially of brewery equipment (cauldrons, vats, etc)

Gas detectors, ventilation systems.


https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0221.shtml

In accordance with your suggestion, the service agrees that cellar 1 should be preheated with the air coming from the rooms of the 3 forced draught installations. The supply and installation of the ductwork and blowers necessary to this end are to be effected as soon as possible. As you point out in your above mentioned letter. execution should commence this week. We would ask you to send in triplicate detailed quote for supply and installation.

At the same time, we would ask you to send an additional quotation for the modification of the air extraction installation in the undressing room.

After receipt of these quotations we shall send a written order.

Head of the Auschwitz Waffen SS and Police
Central Construction Management
[Bischoff's initials]
SS Major [Jährling initials]

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0223.shtml

On 5th March, the Bauleitung ordered from the metalworking shop of the Auschwitz DAW [German Equipment Workshops] “1 St[ü]ck Handgriff für Gastür Ø 12 / 1 handle for gas [tight] door, 12 [mm] diameter” for Birkenau Krematorium II. The order was received on 6th March and completed on 10th. This was not an ordinary door handle, but a metal bar 20 to 30 cm long, riveted at each end and fitted horizontally on the door to facilitate its handling.

On 6th March, the Bauleitung ordered from the DAW metalworking and wood working shops "one gas [tight] door, 100 [cm wide] by 192 [cm high] for Leichenkeller 1 of Krematorium III, BW 30a, to be made on the same pattern as dimensions as the cellar door of the Krematorium opposite [II] with a 8 mm double glass peep-hole, with rubber sealing strip and fittings". The door had still not been made by 31st March. This order proves that the Leichenkeller 1 of Krematorien II and III were filled with gas tight doors [see this extract from a letter of 31st March 1943, Part II, Chapter 8, "Criminal traces"]. The same day, the Bauleitung sent a letter to Messrs Topf, written by Jährling and signed by Bischoff, agreeing to the written suggestion (by Prüfer) [this has not been found, and was probably destroyed because it discussed the project in "too realistic" terms] that the CORPSE CELLAR [LEICHENKELLER] 1 SHOULD BE PREHEATED with the hot air coming from the three small rooms housing the motors for the forced draught installation [Document 30]. This installation, driven by those 15 HP (11 kW) motors driving the three fans drawing the flue gases from the furnaces to the chimney, produced a lot of heat, and neither the SS nor Prüfer had planned any way of dissipating it. It is more than likely that it was again Prüfer who had the bright idea of getting around this problem by channeling the unwanted heat to the Leichenkeller 1, where heat was required to bring the temperature of the room up as quickly as possible to 25 or 30 degrees centigrade (the temperature of evaporation of hydrocyanic acid being 26-27° C). If the gas chamber were to be preheated, the toxic effect would be instantaneous, producing a "flash" death. Prüfer, while claiming at act our of "humanity" towards the poor Jews, was doing everything in his power to push firm's sales, on which he got a commission of 2%. In the author 's opinion, this letter is one of the most vital elements in proving the existence of a homicidal gas chamber in Leichenkeller 1 of Krematorium II. Otherwise it is incomprehensible and absurd that there should be plans to heat a morgue, a place that by definition should be kept cool.

Yes, a rule of thumb is to keep the morgue cool, not preheated

From the same page:

Furthermore. one cellar of Krematorium III I formally designated an "Auskleideraum / Undressing room". The letter does not specify which cellar, but Messing, in his timesheets, indicates it precisely: "Auskleidekeller II / undressing cellar II [for 2]". Thus, this document contains two damning "slips", important indirect proofs demonstrating the "abnormality" of the Leichenkeller: Leichenkeller 1 can no longer be an underground morgue because there are plans to "preheat" it; Leichenkeller 2 can no longer be a morgue because it has become a place where people get undressed. However, before Prüfer's bright idea could be put into practice, one of the forced draught motors caught fire, damaging the installation. This fire caused the system to be withdrawn from service in Krematorium II and totally abandoned in Krematorium III. Natural draught was henceforth used in all four Krematorien, which meant lost commission of several hundred Reichsmark for Prüfer and the impossibility of preheating the Leichenkeller 1.

Plans to reheat the room abandoned, mentions undressing room in the cellar, next to the "morgue". (document here

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0224.shtml

Disregarding February 1942 (incomplete data) and stopping at the end of February 1943, we can determine the average monthly coke consumption of Krematorium I over a twelve month period: 31.1 tons. As Krematorium I had 3 double muffle furnaces, one muffle required approximately 5.2 tons of coke per month.

That's a lot.


https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0231.shtml

the description of the building [Document 50] associated with the deed of transfer for Krematorium II [Document 49] shows that Leichenkeller 1 was fitted with a “GASDICHTETÜR / GAS TIGHT DOOR” [Document 51], and the basement inventory [Document 52] also lists 4 “DRAHTNETZEINSCHIEBVORRICHTUNG[EN] / WIRE MESH INTRODUCTION DEVICES” with 4 “HOLZBLENDED / WOODEN COVERS,” [incorrectly attributed by a Bauleitung clerk to Leichenkeller 2. Seethe explanation in Part II, Chapter 8]. These, apparently “neutral” terms, designated, with no possible shadow of a doubt, the heavy mesh columns into which the Zyklon B was poured in the form of pellets, the top of which, outside the roof, were closed by wooden covers. This proves formally that Leichenkeller 1 of Krematorium II was filled out as A GAS CHAMBER USING ZYKLON B. It is not possible with these documents alone to prove that it was “homicidal”. But, Messing’s designation of Leichenkeller 2 as the UNDRESSING CELLAR, together with the fact that in the ceiling of Leichenkeller 1 about twenty emplacements for dummy showers still exist in the ruins (these are not shown on the Krematorium II basement inventory, whereas the 14 of Kr III are), introduce the missing, “human”, element. We now have the set:

(undressing cellar) + (gas tight door + 4 mesh columns
+ 4 covers + about 24 dummy showers),
which no longer corresponds to:
(corpse cellar 2) + (corpse cellar 1),
but to:
(undressing room) + (homicidal gas chamber).

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0233.shtml

Rear view of one of the 145 galvanized plates, perforated by hand, which were set into and nailed to the wooden fresh air ducts in the upper part of Leichenkeller 1 of Krematorien II and III, now kept in the PMO “stores”, Block 25. Toxicological analyses were carried out in 1945 by the Cracow Forensic Institute (7 Copernicus street) on 4 complete plates and 2 damaged ventilation orifices found in the ruins of Krematorium II. After scraping the white substance that covered these objects back to the metal, 7.2 grams of scrapings were collected and subjected to two qualitative analyses, which established the presence of cyanide compounds. The report, signed by Dr Jan Z Robel, was written on 15th December 1945 and transmitted to the Examining Judge, Jan Sehn.

Cyanide compuonds in the ventilation plates of "leichenkeller 1", the cellar..


I realise that you might not like eye-witness accounts but here are two witness accounts of wire-mesh columns:
https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0235.shtml

Dr Paul Bendel relates that in Krematorium II: “the gas chambers proper [are] two in number” and: “In the middle of these, there descend from the roof two mesh tubes with external valves used to emit the gases”. In "Camps de Concentration" (page 162), Dr. Michel Scheckter [provided the reference for this passage is correct and that the doctor is in fact the author] also describes Leichenkeller 1 of Krematorium II: “A big room followed on from the first [undressing room], approximately 10 [in fact 15] meters long, 6 or 7 meters wide and 5 or 6 [2.5 in fact] meters high. In the upper part, on the center line of its longer dimension, there were two latticework chimney-like structures, with an opening outside the roof through which the gases arrived and spread throughout the room through the lattice of the tubes.”

Witness drawings that show gas-tight door similar to the one found (with the grilled peep-hole), also shows one of the wire-mesh columns in the background in the gas-chamber.
https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0258.shtml


Schematic diagram of the Zyklon-B introduction system: https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0287.shtml


https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0302.shtml

The new arrangement of the basement shows the following modifications as compared with drawings 932, 933 and 1311:

1. The double door of Leichenkeller 1 now opens outwards (it had been realized that it would be impossible to open the doors of the gas chamber if they opened inwards, as in the original design);

2. The corpse chute has been eliminated (a vital point, implying that since this was no longer required the Leichenkeller could no longer be morgues in any normal sense, or else that the “corpses” arrived on foot.

3 The installation of an access stairway leading directly from the north yard of Krematorium II to a basement antechamber between the goldworking room and the associated office, and then to the junction between Leichenkeller 2 and 1. The western access stairway direct to Leichenkeller 2 was not yet planned [the first mention of it found in the PMO Bauleitung files being dated 26th February 1943], so that the stairs drawn by Dejaco became the ONLY POSSIBLE ACCESS to the Leichenkeller, through which the “corpses” had to pass. Replacing a chute designed to take corpses by an ordinary stairway defies all logic — unless the future corpses entered while they were still living and could walk down the stairs. But if the basement was being filled with live people, what could the function of the “morgues” now be?

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0335.shtml

Furnaces 1, 2, 3 and 4 (but not 5) are being warmed through to dry out, as can be seen by the fact that there is no snow on the central part of the roof. In the right foreground, the structure of Leichenkeller 1 is complete, including the roof. The chimneys through which the Zyklon-B was poured were installed later and the roof was covered with an earth bank.

Shows a photo of the roof of the alleged gas chamber, covered with a sheet of snow, without the chimneys but otherwise completed.


https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0340.shtml
Three chimneys of the gas chambers can be seen (the third is a bit obscured) and the fourth is hidden behind the chimney of the train.


https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0344.shtmlA painting showing the roof of the alleged gas chamber and its chimneys, Pressac though states that the drawing is incorrect and that the chimneys should be in a straight line, however; as photos taken from air shows, the drawing was probably correct and Pressac displayed some "confirmation bias", which was probably due to the lack of information at that time.
Airial photo:
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/Holocaust/aerial082544.jpg
(the photo has been shown to be genuine)


Finally, I'd like to finish with a report on the holes of the roof of the gas-chamber: https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/holes-report/holes.shtml