Polish Atrocities against Germans in Poland

All aspects including lead-in to hostilities and results.

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Polish Atrocities against Germans in Poland

Postby Otium » 2 years 1 month ago (Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:09 am)

This thread is where I want to basically distil from accurate sources the reality of Polish Atrocities committed against the Germans prior, and after, the outbreak of the Second World War. This topic seems to be very controversial.

On the one hand you have people who seek to push a very German-centric view of the Second World War ignore - by no fault of their own but the books they read - and they're left with the impression that anything which puts the German position into a reasonable perspective is 'apologism' or 'propaganda'. Often such people are anti-German and not willing to even consider that the truth is not black and white, that the National Socialists made claims that weren't verbose propaganda, and that they did indeed have cause to complain.

And on the other hand you have people who're so adamant about the reality of Polish atrocities, but lack any kind of specific knowledge about the topic, let alone sources.

Now I'm not claiming to be an expert, I'm not. But this thread will hopefully help to clarify the issue to some degree, if not get others to do research of their own. I would recommend anyone interested read the thread I previously made regarding John Wear and his flawed sources on the Polish Atrocities as this thread will be a partial follow-up to that one, because it will address one of the sources which he uses.
It needs to be said that the truth of any issue, so I've personally found, often lies in the middle. This isn't a unique observation of course, but I've certainly found it to be true. In regards to Polish Atrocities, they were real, they happened, they weren't propaganda but in some cases the conclusions, like particular numbers, were exaggerated. Those who seek to discredit the German complaints regarding Polish atrocities often cite the incorrect and certainly inflated figure of 58,000 Germans "missing or dead" as being reason enough to ignore the German White Book on this issue.

Hitler himself was actually deceived as to the correct number as well:

The Polish General Staff, in accordance with a decision by the Polish council of ministers, gave orders that the threatened western provinces be cleared of the Germans. The commanders of the local garrisons were ordered to carry out the evacuation. Local fighting and mass-evacuations were the result. in the course of which some 4,850 Germans (men, women and children) were reported killed. This figure appeared in the German official publication of documents relating to Poland, only it was altered by order of Ribbentrop for reasons of propaganda. A nought was added, so that the figure 4,850 became 48,500 which, in the official publication was rounded off to appear as 50,000. The bloodshed in Poland did not remain a secret. It became known through distorted and exaggerated reports which were submitted to Hitler. A.I. Berndt was the liaison between the German News Agency and Hitler. He told me, with his usual boastfulness, how Hitler reacted. "I myself," said Berndt, "gave the Führer the little shove that landed him in the war. I got the news that the Poles had killed 30,000 Germans. As I thought 30,000 were too few, I added a nought and laid a report before the Führer which made him suppose the Poles had killed 300,000. When Hitler read it, he roared like a bull and told me I was an infamous liar. I replied that the figures might be exaggerated but that there was certainly some truth in them. Hitler was speechless and then began roaring afresh: 'They'll pay for this! Now no one will stop me from teaching these fellows a lesson they'll never forget! I will not have my Germans butchered like cattle.'" According to Berndt's account, Hitler went to the telephone and, in his presence, gave Keitel the second order for the invasion of Poland. This account is confirmed by others. Hitler's roaring was overheard by Erich Kordt, the head of Ribbentrop's bureau and is described by him in his book Wahn und Wirklichkeit. Ribbentrop, Hewel, and other witnesses reported that Hitler suddenly changed round, threw up all negotiation, and without consulting any of his advisers gave orders for the invasion. The bloodshed in Poland threw him into a state of hysterical excitement. To Ribbentrop he said: "it is my right and my duty to defend all Germans. I will not allow anyone to touch one single hair on one single German's head." Hewel told me Hitler explained his volte face by saying that the English too, would understand that he could not abandon his fellow countrymen.

Fritz Hesse, Hitler and the English (Allan Wingate, 1954), Pp. 82-83.


That the number was inaccurate, is not proof that there weren't any atrocities at all. There were, and the Poles seemed hellbent on ethnically cleansing the land which belonged to Germany, and which was inhabited by mostly Germans.

It is hard to avoid the conclusion that the Polish state was bent on the elimination of most of the German minority in Western Poland---by forced assimilation where possible, but mainly by coerced emigration. Moreover, this goal was well on the way to being achieved in 1939; the Pozanian wojewode reportedly assured his supporters that within three years there would no longer be any Germans in Poland. A study of the minority's actual political, cultural, and economic situation merely reinforces the pessimistic assessments of contemporaries cited above. The fact that Hitler took up the minority's case several months before he launched World War II was perhaps the overriding consideration at the time, but it does not make the fact of the minority's plight less compelling. Of course, any country faced with such an adversary might be justified in relegating consideration for a difficult minority to a back burner; even today, some will respond to this account of the minority's travails with a "So What?" in view of the larger issues at stake in 1939. The point, however, is that only a small proportion of the innumerable measures directed at the German minority in Poland, essentially those dating from after April 1939, can be attributed directly to Poland's anticipation of war with Germany. The bulk of the policies and attitudes that determined the living conditions of the minority in interwar Poland antedated 1939 (and 1933 too) and were unconnected to any immediate external threat. It hardly needs to be added that they did nothing to make Poland more secure when the mortal threat materialized. The fact is that Polish nationalism, motivated by the irrational but powerful compulsion to creation a nationally homogeneous society in it's western provinces, created a situation well before 1939 which was bad even by the unenlightened standards of interwar Eastern Europe. Moreover, it is hard to see how this situation would have been different had there never been a Hitler. The "plight" of the German minority in Poland, in other words, was real; it was not merely alleged or fabricated in the interest of Nazi propaganda. ----Apart from the macro political situation in 1939, however, the evidence above makes clear that Germans in Poland had ample justification for their complaints; their prospects for even medium-term survival were bleak; and no German government more principled than Hitler's would have been able to ignore their plight over the long run. Though it was not politic to make these points at the time, there is no reason why they cannot be accepted half a century later.

Richard Blanke, Orphans of Versailles: The Germans in Western Poland 1918-1939 (The University Press of Kentucky, 1993), Pp. 236-237.


For Hitler to therefore cite the plight of the Germans in Poland as a reason to hasten negotiations and get Danzig and the corridor back into the Reich is justified. It was also justified for Hitler to take action to protect these minorities from the oppression of the Poles - even if it meant starting a small war with Poland. There was no need for this border conflict to be the nucleus for a world war. It only became one due to the intervention of powers like Great Britain, France and America who forced Hitler to seek a non-aggression pact with the Soviet Union and bring that country into the fray of hostilities. But keep in mind that Hitler only did this because he thought it would deter the West from fighting a war (Longerich, Hitler, p. 645.).

Keep in mind that in October 1938, Duff Cooper who was the First Lord of the Admiralty, held the belief that Britain should've gone to war with Germany, not because he cared about Czechoslovakia, but because he wanted to "prevent one country dominating the continent 'by brute force'" (A.J.P. Taylor, English History 1914-1945, p. 430.). Churchill was in the came camp as Cooper, men who detested "appeasement". Clearly Cooper wasn't aware of the irony in his statement that Britain should use brute force by going to war in order to defend Europe from the 'brute force' of Germany, that this was actually advocating for the very thing he claimed to be against.

That war was was seen to be a rational option (and still is today by historians who still hate appeasement) against the German nation who was redressing justified grievances that by all merits didn't need to involve Great Britain or anyone else, was bound to result in negative consequences. Britain cannot therefore be absolved of guilt. Those like Cooper and Churchill who were on the side of war from the beginning most certainly cannot in good conscience be absolved, for if they had their way, Britain would've been at war in 1938 simply because they didn't like the Germans. The biggest lie was that Britain was actively losing something in dealings with Hitler. Never did they once think to just step away and realise that they had nothing to lose all along. Instead they opted for war to the bitter end, whether it was necessary or not.

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Re: Polish Atrocities against Germans in Poland

Postby Moderator » 2 years 1 month ago (Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:56 am)

There is also this thread:
Polish Atrocities against Germans before 1. September 1939
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7525
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Re: Polish Atrocities against Germans in Poland

Postby Otium » 2 years 1 month ago (Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:06 am)

Initially I was going to include this in my first post. But I think it worked better on the note I left it off at. It doesn't really matter I guess.

In an article written by John Wear he cites an article from The Barnes Review written by a Marc Roland entitled Poland's Censored Holocaust which he uses as justification to cite the German White Book on Polish atrocities Die polnischen Greueltaten an den Volksdeutschen in Polen (Polish atrocities against the ethnic Germans in Poland) because according to Wear:

Polish atrocities against ethnic Germans have been documented in the book Polish Acts of Atrocity against the German Minority in Poland. Most of the outside world dismissed this book as nothing more than propaganda used to justify Hitler’s invasion of Poland. However, skeptics failed to notice that forensic pathologists from the International Red Cross and medical and legal observers from the United States verified the findings of these investigations of Polish war crimes. These investigations were also conducted by German police and civil administrations, and not the National Socialist Party or the German military. Moreover, both anti-German and other university-trained researchers have acknowledged that the charges in the book are based entirely on factual evidence.

John Wear, Why Germany Invaded Poland, Journal of Inconvenient History, Vol. 11 (2019). No. 1.


When I read this for the first time I was intrigued to say the least. So I went and checked out Wears citation and looked online for the article by Roland which I found and examined; and alas I was let down, the article I can now say with 90% certainty, is utter bunk, at least concerning the specific claims made about the Polish atrocities. Roland claims:

The report (German white book previously mentioned) was carefully scrutinized after the war by anti-German researchers intent on unmasking it as propaganda. But in 1954, the East German Communist historian Theodor Bierschenk stated, after a four year study entitled Polish Acts of Atrocity Against the German Minority in Poland, that the charges were based entirely on factual evidence. His judgement was challenged the following year by Otto Heike, a West German Social Democrat journalist, who was forced to admit that Bierschenk's conclusions were correct.

Since then, the 1940 report has been similarly verified by the few university-trained researchers who have bothered to examine it for factuality. Foremost among them is the American layer and historian Alfred-Maurice de Zayas, presently professor of international law at the Geneva School of Diplomacy and International Relations, formerly a senior lawyer with the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights. De Zayas goes into great detail about this in his book The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau, 1939-1945.

He was seconded by the renowned and meticulous U.S. historian David Leslie Hoggan. Hoggan noted that Polish Acts of Atrocity Against the German Minority in Poland documents these war crimes in a thoroughly professional and credible manner. . .

Marc Roland, Poland's Censored Holocaust, The Barnes Review, March/April 2010.


There's a few things to note.

Theodor Bierschenk never wrote a book entitled Polish Acts of Atrocity Against the German Minority in Poland, as that's merely the name of the German white book from 1940; he actually did write a book that came out in 1954, but it was entitled Die Deutsche Volksgruppe in Polen 1934-39 (The German ethnic group in Poland 1934-39), and Otto Heike wrote a book entitled Die Deutsche Minderheit in Polen 1918-1939 (The German minority in Poland 1918-1939). Unfortunately I cannot check these books to see if what Roland claims is correct, but I won't hold my breath because neither Hoggan nor de Zayas prove to be confirmatory sources either. I found no references in any book by Hoggan, and de Zayas says the exact opposite of what Roland claims:

The evidentiary value of German white books during World War II varies greatiy. Some consist almost exclusively ofsworn witness testimony as compiled by the War Crimes Bureau; these can be said to be fairly reliable, whereas those white books including everything from newspaper articles to Gestapo reports must be taken cumgrano salis (with a grain of salt).

The first two German white books dealing with the war in Poland represent a nadir of bad taste and cheap propaganda. On page 187 of “The Polish Atrocities against the Ethnic Germans in Poland” and on page 283 of the enlarged “Documents of Polish Cruelty” appears a “document” numbered 109 under the loud heading “In the Hell of Bereza-Kartuska.” The editors simply reprinted a newspaper article from the Posener Tageblatt of 27 October 1939—taking it at face value as the credible report of a Mr. Kopiera, the former director ofthe Schicht plant in Warsaw purporting to establish the murder of 158 Germans at the Bereza-Kartuska internment camp.

This “document” was included even though a thorough investigation on the spot had disproved the allegations. In November 1939 a special commission—two military judges, a medical doctor, members of a propaganda company, and two foreign journalists—had been sent to investigate whether twelve to fifteen German pilots had in fact been killed at Bereza-Kartuska. Although the commission’s report appears to have been lost, the files of the Foreign Office show that Gunther Altenburg had sent a representative to join the commission and report back to the Foreign Office. According to his account, the pilots were not executed at all but were sent on a transport to Pinsk. The commission further established that though many ethnic Germans at Bereza-Kartuska had been beaten and otherwise mistreated, only three had been killed. In his report of 6 January 1940, Altenburg summed up: “The conclusions of this official commission do not substantiate the allegation in Document 109 that 158 Germans were murdered at Bereza-Kartuska.

Alfred M. de Zayas, The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau 1939-1945 (Maine: Picton Press, 2000), Pp. 78.


One shouldn't be fooled into thinking that nobody in the German government had any scruples, because this document was not included in the official English translation of the white book:

In light of this finding several members in the Foreign Office pleaded for the removal of the document. On 10 January 1940 Ambassador Hans Dieckhoff wrote directly on the report: “Now as ever I believe that an official publication should contain only such documents as are absolutely correct. If the atrocities are true, they should be published; if they are not entirely true, then they should not be published.”9 But a day later, Councilor Gunter Lohse of the Press Department contended that it would be too expensive to take the document out of the white book, and anyway, the Foreign Office had already pointed out in a footnote that an official investigation of the case was still in progress. Thus it was decided to keep the objectionable “document” 109 so as not to delay publication of the German-language version of the white book. Lohse did propose taking it out of all foreign-language editions, and in fact it is missing in the English version, titled “Polish Acts of Atrocity against the German Minority in Poland,” which was published in New York in the spring of 1940.

Ibid., p. 78-79.


Yet this was not the only error, of course, the figure of 58,000 dead and missing is not accurate, and de Zayas does not affirm its accuracy, despite what Roland says:

Besides this kind of false information there were more serious manipulations and exaggerations. For instance, the original manuscript version of the white book spoke of 5,437 murdered Germans; the published edition claims 58,000 dead and missing—the “official” figure fabricated by Goebbels for his propaganda machine. In implementing this political falsification, the German Foreign Office had to telegraph its embassies in Washington, Buenos Aires, Rio de Janeiro, and elsewhere: “ On page 17, line 10 from the top, insert the figure 58,000 instead of 5,000.”

Ibid., p. 79.


The Germans of course didn't only publish white books about atrocities, but also collections of documents on topics such as the outbreak of the war and the 'Allied intrigue in the low countries' which are taken to be accurate and reliable all in all. De Zaya's doesn't mention these in any case.

It should be noted that Roland in his article isn't wrong for saying that massacres and mistreatment of Germans happened, but that he has seemingly falsified his sources to support a conclusion that cannot be documented is wrong. This can be evidenced by his sloppy citations, lack of page numbers or specifics regarding those he considers an authority on the matter of verifying the German white book, de Zayas included. John Wear is merely guilty of not thoroughly checking his sources, but not of intentional falsification.

As for legitimate atrocities against ethnic Germans in Poland, de Zayas dedicates a whole chapter (c. 13) to it in his book. If you want to read it, I have uploaded a pdf of the full book here.

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Re: Polish Atrocities against Germans in Poland

Postby knowthetruth » 2 years 1 month ago (Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:30 pm)

I must admit I am impressed with the quality of research here! I have read many resources and I am convinced these atrocities happened. It is a historical fact. Atrocities happened over a number of years and as to the Bromberg Bloody Sunday, even some Polish historians started in recent years questioning the traditional Polish narrative. Among them is Prof Wlodzimierz Jastrzebski who lost his job at university at Bromberg (now Bydgoszcz) after he presented some historical facts (the myth of German Vth column) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C5%82od ... %C4%99bski
In Poland as soon as you start questioning mainstream 'history' you are a traitor and this happened to me too.

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Re: Polish Atrocities against Germans in Poland

Postby christianbethel » 6 months 1 day ago (Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:29 pm)

Leon Degrelle has also stated in the past he possesses documents detailing the privations of the German population in Poland and Danzig.
'Aryan' does not mean 'white'. The entire concept of 'whiteness' is racist. Hitler never identified as 'white'. Hitler was a radical leftist anti-racist, and I can prove it. Contact me privately for quotes.

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Re: Polish Atrocities against Germans in Poland

Postby Hektor » 6 months 5 hours ago (Fri Dec 09, 2022 10:36 am)

christianbethel wrote:Leon Degrelle has also stated in the past he possesses documents detailing the privations of the German population in Poland and Danzig.

Well, did he bother to publish them then?


The issue with "the other side of World War two" is often that there is testimony, proof, documents etc. But those who are holding them couldn't or didn't bother to make them accessible to a larger public. Lots of the post war publications challenging the narrative were mostly offering anecdotal evidence of some person talking about their own experience (or rumors they have heard). Per definition that is usually not testable.

The other issue was that most historiographers, investigative journalists and the like couldn't care less about investigating anti-German measures, crimes, etc. Simply because that this wouldn't score you brownie points in academia and journalism and additionally it was unlikely to be granted access to archives or even travel opportunities into Eastern Europe.


From what I could assess there is hints on Anti-German Actions by Poles within the British Archives with the British trying to downplay this , especially during 1939. Then there is contemporary testimony of people that either lived near or in territories occupied by Poland. Apparently the Germans also gave opportunity to foreign journalists to investigate for themselves after the invasion of Poland. Some did make use of that opportunity, but those would yield only snippets of information. What would be in demand is reports from neutral organization. Hence not under the thumb of either the Axis or the Allies.

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Re: Polish Atrocities against Germans in Poland

Postby christianbethel » 5 months 3 weeks ago (Wed Dec 14, 2022 5:01 pm)

Who did you have in mind?
'Aryan' does not mean 'white'. The entire concept of 'whiteness' is racist. Hitler never identified as 'white'. Hitler was a radical leftist anti-racist, and I can prove it. Contact me privately for quotes.


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