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NatSoc420
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Popular Believers Sources

Postby NatSoc420 » 2 years 5 months ago (Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:57 pm)

I've been doing some research on the types of popular sources different kind Holocaust Believers tend to use. From what I noticed there are two different types of Believers 1. The Tankies (Marxists) and 2. Mainstream Believers (Zionists, typical believer, and "academics"). I've noticed they each have their own reserved sources which they constantly bring up in debates with Holocaust Revisionists.

Tankie's Sources

Short Explanation: The website also makes the claim that National Socialists were Capitalists but also challenges other Revisionist arguments such as Lebensraum. It gives a list of books that are mainly about German exploitation and bunch of other bs that Marxists always talk about.

Mainstream Believers Sources

    Website: Holocaust Denial On Trial
    https://www.hdot.org/
    Short Explanation: This is a website a majority of you in this forum are most likely familiar with but for those who haven't seen this webite, it basically "debunks" Holocaust Revisionism.

    Website: The Holocaust Explained
    https://www.theholocaustexplained.org/
    Short Explanation: This website gives an explanation on what "really" happened during the Holocaust.

    Website: United States Holocaust Museum
    https://www.ushmm.org/
Short Explanation: Same thing with T.H.E but with more indepth research.

Note that Tankie's also use the M.B sources but of course add in the Eastern Front "atrocities" which the big bad "Nazis" did to the "innocent" Soviets and finding a way to blame it on Capitalism (Typical). But if anyone is interested in checking out these sources and debunking them go right ahead! Also adding some sources I've missed would be great also!

Otium

Re: Popular Believers Sources

Postby Otium » 2 years 5 months ago (Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:19 pm)

NatSoc420 wrote:I've been doing some research on the types of popular sources different kind Holocaust Believers tend to use. From what I noticed there are two different types of Believers 1. The Tankies (Marxists) and 2. Mainstream Believers (Zionists, typical believer, and "academics"). I've noticed they each have their own reserved sources which they constantly bring up in debates with Holocaust Revisionists.

Tankie's Sources

[list]Book: The Black Shirts and Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism https://eastsidemarxism.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/michael-parenti-blackshirts-and-reds-rational-fascism-and-the-overthrow-of-communism.pdf
Short Explanation: The book basically says Fascism is used by Capitalists to take down Communism.


I flipped through the pdf, it's mostly what I expected, pure Marxist dialectic trash. They define everything according to their own terms and then write as if everyone accepts their terms to be true - they avoid any kind of middle ground understanding in order to push their wild conspiracies. We can safely discard this rubbish, the lack of sources is also evident - although I did notice them cite the book "The Unknown Hitler" which makes the claim Hitler was a homosexual, a charge no historian, orthodox or otherwise, accepts. - except for deranged Marxists apparently.

The claim made by Marxists that "Fascism is Capitalism in Decay" never had any foundation. It was made up and used by Marxist theoreticians back in the 1920s as well, and they were able to make this claim purely by defining Fascism how they wanted to define it from the position of being a Marxist. They never had proof of their statements, nor did they ever wish to offer any.

Anything that wasn't Communism, these people basically consider to be Capitalism, no matter how ridiculous. There's a bitter irony in their claim as well, because the history of Communist regimes has consistently shown how impotent the Marxist system is at establishing itself and not fizzling out. It appears to be the case that most Communist regimes eventually decay, giving rise to Capitalism, even if incomplete or not accompanied by liberalism. We've seen this most prominently in China, and also in the late USSR - In this respect my mind takes me to the time Gorbachev appeared in an advertisement for Pizza Hut; it's funny to see a Communist advertisement, in which the Russians are united behind their love of Pizza, despite the sharp divide on political questions.

In days long past, the Marxist source for the hand of Capitalism behind Hitler was the book "I Paid Hitler" by Fritz Thyssen, this book however, was a worthless forgery. So the Marxists lost whatever claim they thought they had on thinking Hitler was in the pocket of the Capitalists. The NSDAP was funded largely by accepting generous donations, no strings attached, and funding itself through party fees, and multiple Newspapers which sold quite well.

The Marxist 'agent theory' which to this day sees Hitler as the tool of Germany's industry, the agrarians and the army is devoid of any factual substance. The attitudes adopted by the army leadership have already been mentioned. The Reichslandbund, the association in which the big estate owners east of the Elbe were organised, was one of the first organisations infiltrated by the NSDAP, but there is no evidence of its having decisively influenced Hindenburg's decision. And what do we mean by 'Industry'? Definition is necessary here. To the iron, coal and steel industry Hitler's autarchy programme may have been welcome but not to Germany's export-orientated industry, especially the chemical and electrical industries. The American historian Henry Ashby Jr, who had access to West and East German archives as well as to the archives of individual industrial combines, has discovered that Hitler received financial contributions from industries from late 1930 onwards, but only token amounts, a kind of 'reinsurance' much less than the Centre Party or other right-wing parties received, for example. And if Hitler was the product of big business, how was it that he and not the industrial magnate Hugenberg became chancellor? The financial sacrifices which were demanded from the individual NSDAP members, even when they were unemployed, are not generally known, but they enabled the NSDAP to be largely self-financing.48 Ironically, that sector which could expect the greatest benefits from Hitler's policy, German heavy industry, notably Krupp, did not open their coffers for Hitler until after 30 January 1933. By the end of 1932 the treasury of the NSDAP was almost exhausted, as Goebbels' diaries show. 49 The standard source book of the Marxist interpretation, Thyssen's I paid Hitler, has been shown by Turner to be the fabrication of the British journalist of Hungarian origin, Emery Reeves (the very man who was to assist Rauschning in the fabrication of his Hitler Speaks). It was not Thyssen's work

H.W. Koch, Editor., Aspects of the Third Reich (Macmillan, 1985), Pp. 55


Without the support of Marx's economic prognostications, the Marxist-Leninist interpretation of fascism, standard in the '9305, really had very little to say about fascism other than that it was to be seen as an attempt by the generic bourgeoisie to maintain its privileges in the face of what Marxist enthusiasts imagined was imminent proletarian revolution. Even that would have to assume that contemporary society was objectively "rotten-ripe for the social and that the bourgeoisie had no hope of salvation other than to throw in their lot with fascists. 41

That society was "rotten-ripe for the socialist revolution" was predicated on the conviction that profit rates in the system approximated zero-that sustainable rates could not be restored-and that the class-conscious proletariat understood all this and was prepared to assume the responsibilities of rule. Only in those circumstances would the characterization of fascism as the reactionary armed guard of capitalism take on any plausibility.

Only if all the speculations that made up Marxist-Leninist "theories" of the world are accepted as true, might one conceive of fascism as discharging the responsibility of protecting the survival of the system by supervising an overall reduction in industrial output, restricting the growth in fixed capital assets, cartelizing the entire economy, and imposing monopoly prices throughout. This would entail the unpleasant business of reducing the gross national product, mandating and maintaining extremely low wage rates, curtailing social services, and imposing draconian discipline. The entire system would wind down to a "lower technical and economic level" to satisfy the requirements of senescent capitalism.

A. James Gregor, The Faces of Janus: Marxism and Fascism in the Twentieth Century (Yale University Press, 2000), Pp. 35-36: Read here: https://pdfhost.io/v/6UQjhNxoT_A_James_Gregor_The_Faces_of_Janus__Marxism_and_Fascism_in_the_Twentieth_CenturyYale_University_Press_2000pdf.pdf


Gregor shreds this Marxist myth for an entire chapter, if not longer - you'd be better off reading it yourself.

Keith Woods also made a fine video on the subject:



NatSoc420 wrote:Note that Tankie's also use the M.B sources but of course add in the Eastern Front "atrocities" which the big bad "Nazis" did to the "innocent" Soviets and finding a way to blame it on Capitalism (Typical). But if anyone is interested in checking out these sources and debunking them go right ahead! Also adding some sources I've missed would be great also!


All these sources and their arguments have been shredded on this forum and much more meticulously in the voluminous Holocaust Hanbooks series which you can read for free here: http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?main_page=1&sort=voa&s=0&st=41#entries

Debunking websites as large as those is not an easy task, and certainly not within the realm of capability for any single person using CODOH. Questions regarding the Holocaust can be discussed individually if there's a specific thing you want to debate, or know the answer to.

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Re: Popular Believers Sources

Postby Moderator » 2 years 5 months ago (Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:55 pm)

NatSoc420:

HMSendeavour stated:
Debunking websites as large as those is not an easy task, and certainly not within the realm of capability for any single person using CODOH. Questions regarding the Holocaust can be discussed individually if there's a specific thing you want to debate, or know the answer to.

As stated in our basic guidelines*, please do not cite numerous links without telling us what it is about each of them that you find good, bad, compelling, ridiculous, etc.
Also, per our guidelines, we discuss one "Holocaust" related topic per thread.
Thanks & welcome, Moderator1

* Guidelines:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=358
Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.

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Re: Popular Believers Sources

Postby NatSoc420 » 2 years 5 months ago (Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:57 pm)

Moderator wrote:NatSoc420:

HMSendeavour stated:
Debunking websites as large as those is not an easy task, and certainly not within the realm of capability for any single person using CODOH. Questions regarding the Holocaust can be discussed individually if there's a specific thing you want to debate, or know the answer to.

As stated in our basic guidelines*, please do not cite numerous links without telling us what it is about each of them that you find good, bad, compelling, ridiculous, etc.
Also, per our guidelines, we discuss one "Holocaust" related topic per thread.
Thanks & welcome, Moderator1

* Guidelines:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=358


Oh ok will do! Sorry about that, I'll be sure to not do it again.

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Re: Popular Believers Sources

Postby Hektor » 2 years 5 months ago (Wed Dec 23, 2020 5:03 am)

NatSoc420 wrote:....Oh ok will do! Sorry about that, I'll be sure to not do it again.

Argumentation techniques and patterns by specific groups are however an important matter.
There is of course several groups with deviating (but not necessarily contradicting) interest on the matter.
It starts with the assertion that the Holocaust must be real, after all "haven't you seen the pictures from Buchenwald and other concentration camps?" All professors, teachers, journalists and survivors can't be wrong, neither. Usually they don't get resistance against their assertion (and often they don't have to assert, since the myth is already so deeply engrained it's factual character is accepted as historical fact).

Jews are in the comfortable position of being the victim and gaining sympathy that way. That shields them from criticism and may even be seen as a strategy against hostility towards them. Internally the myth has the effect of establishing cohesion theistic religion doesn't give them anymore, since many Jews are secularists or even atheists.

But they are by far not the most important interest groups in this.
For the Allied countries (and especially there Elites) the atrocity propaganda had the advantage of shielding them from scrutiny on their own actions that lead to and happened during WW2. They had the post-facto legitimation of having fought an "evil regime", which made it easier to pass themselves on as the "good guys".

The leftists did (and do) have probably the biggest interest in the matter for two reasons:
1. They themselves were militantly opposed by the National Socialists (for a number of reasons, some of them most people would actually find legitimate). Communists and Social Democrats were actually imprisoned (although most of their supporters actually aligned pretty well with National Socialism.) That means of course that have an axe to grind and as with Jews, the victim status gives them some of protection against critique.

2. They can blame a number of Western ideas and world views for 'Auschwitz' and 'the Holocaust' discrediting them that way in the minds of the gullible. Bear in mind they like to use the term Fascism also when they mean National Socialism. They don't like to say National Socialist, since Socialism is a holy word to them:
- Anti-communism, because the Axis countries were all staunch anti-communists.
- Social Conservatism. NS had some socially conservative ideas (while being progressive in several other ways).
- folkish Nationalism (They'd call that racist nowadays). It was seen as an obstacle to international class solidarity then.
- Christianity as Germany was a Christian country and most of the NSDAP voters were registered Protestants or Catholics. Christianity was seen as an obstacle to Marxism.
- Capitalism, since Fascism is seen as late stage capitalism. And the support base of the NSDAP was slightly more bourgeois than proletarian (I'm using their terminology and reasoning)

Neomarxists would also bash other stuff and use further associations mostly relating to social conservatism. e.g. heteronormativity, patriarchy, civic virtues like law abidance, respect for authority, martial virtues, industriousness, discipline, etc.

With other words Holocausting and Nazi-bashing is weaponizing myths against all tenets of Western Civilisation. Meanwhile the left has thrown the workers under the bus and now advocates gender issues, racial issues, LGBT, "refugees" and even cooperates in this with international corporations who may have other interests in this, but also seem to distain traditional Occidentalism.

The sources overlap, but depending on the group they will have their preferences. Liberals and moderates may not out-rightly use openly Communist sources, while Communists got no problem using sources that aren't Communist in fact, this may even help their case. Because "see, they others say that as well". The advantage is that the Holocaust has hegemony in Academia and most academics won't reveal their political convictions, which are however mostly skewed towards the far left. That's also why its rather difficult to find sources and details on Communist atrocities at all. Sometimes its written in an apologetic manner. There were actually leftists that were rather critical of Stalin, since that regime turned out to be an embarrassment to them.

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Re: Popular Believers Sources

Postby Lamprecht » 2 years 5 months ago (Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:16 am)

Popular believer sources are literally anything you can find in the top 5 results on a Google search for "evidence of Holocaust"

Wikipedia, USHMM, Jewish Virtual Library, HolocaustControverises blog. Nizkor used to be used a lot as well. PHDN is also used but mostly in French.

There's also this Imgur account: https://imgur.com/user/siraaronrichards

Which is the source of a lot of exterminationist graphics, such as these: viewtopic.php?t=12399
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
— Herbert Spencer


NOTE: I am taking a leave of absence from revisionism to focus on other things. At this point, the ball is in their court to show the alleged massive pits full of human remains at the so-called "extermination camps." After 8 decades they still refuse to do this. I wonder why...

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Re: Popular Believers Sources

Postby Kretschmer » 2 years 5 months ago (Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:38 am)

HMSendeavour wrote:

although I did notice them cite the book "The Unknown Hitler" which makes the claim Hitler was a homosexual, a charge no historian, orthodox or otherwise, accepts. - except for deranged Marxists apparently.

This bizarre "conspiracy fantasy" (as Lamprecht would say) is also repeated by the atrocious Zio-con propaganda website Conservapedia, in its article Nazi Germany and Homosexuality (linked here: https://conservapedia.com/Nazi_Germany_and_homosexuality.) As one would expect, the so-called "evidence" offered for this claim amounts mostly to further unsubstantiated claims from "journalists" and "historians."

What's left is sourced from a "report" written by the OSS, the exact same OSS that claimed there were gas chambers at Dachau when it is now universally acknowledged even among believers that there were none. Up until recently, the article also contained the repulsive lie that Hermann Göring was some sort of drag queen, and again provided not the slightest hint of proof of any kind before the claim itself was removed.
The claim made by Marxists that "Fascism is Capitalism in Decay" never had any foundation. It was made up and used by Marxist theoreticians back in the 1920s as well, and they were able to make this claim purely by defining Fascism how they wanted to define it from the position of being a Marxist. They never had proof of their statements, nor did they ever wish to offer any.

While the common Marxist claim that Fascism is "Capitalism in decay" is indeed absurd, some do in fact attempt to form a basis for this argument of theirs, even if easily refutable. In the eyes of such Marxists, they view Fascist Corporatism and National Syndicalism as "reactionary" attempts to halt or slow down the process of the "mobilization of the proletariat," in other words an attempt at "appeasing" the lower echelons of society to stave off revolution.

Before 1935 when the concept of the "united front" became endorsed by the Comintern, Social Democrats were viewed as "Social Fascists" for this very reason, as their reconciliation with Capitalist economics was perceived as a form of "appeasement" for the workers and thus also a form of Fascist Corporatism. Being typical Marxist drivel, this perception in question is entirely wrong, as regulated Capitalism or Liberal Corporatism function very differently from an economy employing either Fascist Corporatism or National Syndicalism.

In Neoliberal Capitalism, the "regulation" placed upon private enterprise that is often erroneously called Corporatism is just that -- simple regulative legislation that more often than not benefits the megacorporations being affected more so than anyone else, as adherence to regulation tends to cool off heated relations between the employee and employer and benefits their public relations.

Unless boiling Corporatism down to the most reductive of definitions, nothing about this in any way corresponds with the purpose of Fascist economics. Corporatism, contrary to the popular belief, is not just the regulation of private enterprise within an otherwise Capitalist economy. In the case of Fascist Corporatism at least, it is rather the organization of all sectors of the economy into a vertical hierarchy of guilds that collectively form corporate bodies for each industry and trade, and National Syndicalism is little different.

Such policy is intended to achieve what [the admittedly not-so-great] Oswald Mosley described in this famous quote: "Capitalism is a system by which Capital uses the Nation for its own purposes. Fascism is a system by which the Nation uses Capital for its own purposes." This entirely contradicts the infamous "Fascism should be more properly called Corporatism, since it is the merger of State and Corporate power," that was allegedly said by Mussolini, a "quote" often used by Marxists to argue for the supposed presence of Capitalism in Corporatism.

There is also a considerable number of Hitler quotes floating around that also reaffirm this, though it has been several months since I have read any and it is generally difficult to find them using (((Google.))) And of course, the points that HMS and Hektor raise here are all spot-on.
"In all of mankind's conflicts involving deaths by chemical warfare, pesticides were the ideal weapon of choice" - said no chemist or historian ever. :lol:


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