Comparison between Jewish census figures

[Mythos]

http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_408.html
(I found this at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population#_note-3
^ Judaism, continued... citations at Adherents.com)

World'Jewish population before World War 2 according to census figures: 15,000,000 - 18,000,000.
World'Jewish population after World War 2 according to census figures: 11,000,000 - 18,200,000.

Lets play with the figures.
Example 1: In 1939 there were 18,000,000 Jews in the world. In 1945 there were 11,000,000 Jews in the world. So 7,000,000 died in the holocaust.
Example 2: In 1939 there were 16,000,000 Jews in the world. In 1945 there were 11,000,000 Jews in the world. So 5,000,000 died in the holocaust.
Example 3: In 1939 there were 15,700,000 Jews in the world. In 1948 there were 15,700,000 Jews in the world. So 0,000,000 died in the holocaust.
Example 4: In 1939 there were 15,700,000 Jews in the world. In 1962 there were 17,500,000 Jews in the world. So Jewish population increased 1,800,000 during the war.
Example 5: In 1900 there were 12,000,000 Jews in the world. In 1997 there were 18,200,000 Jews in the world. So Jewish population increased 6,200,000 during the 20th century.

I let Jürgen Graf make my point: "
The leading pre-war expert on Jewish population statistics, Arthur Ruppin, stated that there were 16.7 million Jews in the world in 1939 (13). For the immediate postwar years, the World Almanac gave the following figures: 15.19 million in 1945 and 15.7 million in the following four years, from 1946 to 1949. But its 1949 issue, the World Almanac quoted the figures furnished by the American Jewish commitee according to which there had been 16.6 million Jews in 1939 and only 11.2 million in 1947 (14). On the other hand, in an article published in the Jewish-owned New York Times in early 1948, Hanson Baldwin, a military expert and specialist on Palestine, stated that there were between 15 and 18 million Jews worldwide (15). As you see, the Jewish world population statistics enable you as easily to prove that the Holocaust took place as they allow you to prove that it didn't; it just depends upon which statistics you prefer to believe. It's not in these statistics that we are going to find the answer to our question how many Jews really perished as a result of German policy."
http://www.historiography-project.org/m ... osses.html


One of the sources who estimate that the world's Jewish population is about 18 million:
http://www.firstthings.com :
Forgetting the Source and Summit

Who's Who in World Religions

I first met David Barrett in 1971 in Nairobi, Kenya, where he was doing pioneering work on indigenous religious movements in Africa, a subject on which I was going to write a book, until my attention was diverted by developments in South Africa. In recent years, Barrett has been running the research office of the AD2000 Global Evangelization Movement in Rockville, Virginia. Among numbers crunchers on world religion, Barrett is at the top of his field. He publishes an annual summary in the International Bulletin of Missionary Research and edits the relevant sections of the Britannica Book of the Year and Britannica World Data. While Barrett's data are state of the art, he cautions that the art is precisely that, an art. Estimates involve some delicate distinctions and carefully controlled guesswork. But it is fascinating stuff.

For instance, there are 1.9 billion Christians in the world and slightly over one billion Muslims. Barrett estimates that in the year 2025 there will be over three billion Christians and 1.8 billion Muslims. Among Christians, there are 56 million Anglicans, 4 million Catholics (non- Roman), 20 million "marginal Protestants" (non-Catholic but also not identified with any Protestant tradition), 167 million nonwhite indigenous Christians (mainly new African groups combining Christianity and tribal religions), 187 million Eastern Orthodox (Russian, Greek, et al.), 347 million Protestants, and somewhat over a billion Roman Catholics.

Not everyone is happy with the way that Barrett counts Jews. He says that in 1900 there were 12.2 million Jews, 15.5 million in 1970, 18.2 million at present, and he projects that there will be 25.5 million in the year 2025. These figures are in tension with the common claim that "half of world Jewry" was wiped out in the Holocaust, and that the number of Jews is declining. For twenty-five years, Barrett has been in discussion with Jewish specialists who generally give a much lower figure for the number of Jews living today. One Jewish publication claims, "Statistical data are difficult to obtain among Jews owing to the lack of public sources." Barrett challenges that: "Half of all nations in the world enumerate religious Jews and ethnic Jews in their decennial population censuses, and I have records of them all going back 140 years. Polls, partial censuses, sociological studies are all legion. Making sense of them is more difficult, but again the literature is enormous."

He says that Jewish statistical experts use the concept of "core Jew," meaning "real Jews" who are known, professing, affiliated, and usually practicing. Barrett, however, uses the larger category of "adherents" based on the definition in the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights. He also includes adherents of "Jewish sects or cults, crypto-Jews, Third World adherents of Judaism who are ignored or disowned by core Jews, Black Jews, Black Hebrews, African groups like the Bayahuda in Uganda, and Asian groups like the Cochin Jews in Kerala and the Bney Israel in Bombay." There are also groups that are somewhere between Christianity and Judaism or Islam and Judaism, but are more Jewish than Christian or Muslim. Then, of course, there are Messianic Jews, and ethnic Jews who are Christians or atheists. "If one examines every source figure in this rigorous fashion," says Barrett, "no conflicting figures emerge, although proponents of core Judaism may not like the larger totals that result."

by: Richard John Neuhaus
February 1997
http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3 ... +Buddhists

[BelzeBob]

Very well. I can see numerous references from the World Almanac on revisionist sites. But.... how can we verify that the numbers presented were those actually written in the World Almanac (Jewish population before and after WWII)? I'm making a Holocaust website (www.holocaustinfo.net - in Norwegian) and I feel the need to provide people with documentation that's valid. (Instead of giving references that I can't really be sure of myself.) Any help is appreciated.

Yes, I've seen all the usual stuff about no significant decrease in the Jewish population after WWII, and I've seen all those numbers from the World Almanac, but is there a way I can verify that these numbers actually are/were in the almanacs? Do I have to go and buy actual copies from say 1938 and 1948?

I've also heard something about a Holocaustian "revision" of the almanac numbers. (So the Holocaust becomes more plausible)....

Thanks,
BB

[georgesmiley]

I have looked on the forum for a counter argument to the following post at Nizkor - would be grateful for any comment that can debunk this or point me to the post on the forum where it has already been addressed:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/worldalmanac.html

Editor: Ken McVay
Authors: Annie Alpert, John Morris In August of 1997, an author identifying himself as Bob Djurdjevic, the founder of "Truth in Media," included the following paragraph in a letter to The Arizona Republic:

"The World Almanac for 1940 gives the world's Jewish population as 15,319,359. The World Almanac for 1949 puts the number of Jews in the world at 15,713,638.

"If the World Almanac figures are correct, "the world's Jewish population did not decrease in the war decade, but showed a small increase."

The 1949 figure offered by Mr. Djurdjevic was, as you're about to see, an outright lie, as was the conclusion drawn.

When citing the World Almanac as a source for data "proving" that there was no Jewish population decline during World War II, Holocaust deniers are simply propagating one of the standard denier myths that has recurred regularly for more than a decade.

The problem has nothing whatever to do with rates of population increase or anything like that. It has to do with how frequently the World Almanac's sources had access to fresh estimates of religious populations.

Whoever first started propagating World Almanac figures neglected to mention that all figures before
1949 were from 1938 estimates. Since the year of etimate is given at the top of the chart it is difficult to believe that the originator did not intentionally mean to decieve by negelecting this key piece of information.

I have posted the following correction several times:

The University of Alberta library has the World Almanac issues for the pertinent period for 1941, 1944, 1947, 1948, and 1949. The figures listed for total world Jewish population are as follows:


1941 15,748,091
1944 15,192,089
1947 15,688,259
1948 15,688,259
1949 11,266,600

Now you may be wondering what happened to all those Jews in 1948-49. No fresh estimates were made between 1938 and 1947. The figures listed for 1941, 1947, and 1948 are identified as estimates made in 1938. The source for the estimate for 1944 is not given, and the numbers are listed differently than in other years. In 1944, the numbers are given as a part of a list of various world religions rather than standing on their own with a country-by-country breakdown as in the other years.

Only in 1949 are postwar estimates employed, the figures given are for estimates made in 1948. A year or two lag seems to be common for various other population estimates given by the World Almanac.

The difference between the 1938 and 1948 figures is thus 4,481,491.

In 1949, however, the World Almanac gives a revised 1939 population of 16,643,120 giving a difference of between 1938 and 1947 of 5,376,520. Where the extra population between 1938 and 1939 came from is not cited, though one might speculate that it was based upon the Nazi estimates made in 1942 for the Wannsee Conference.

Despite the apparent exactness of the numbers listed, the World Almanac warns that all numbers listed are estimates.

The World Almanac estimates figured prominently in another instance of the Gambit when the New York Times published inflated estimates of the post-war Jewish population in 1948, and early deniers used the story to dismiss claims of 6 million Jewish deaths. i

The Times later explained that their data had come from the 1948 World Almanac in this letter to Morris Kominsky from the author of the piece:

"Dear Mr. Kominsky,
"Thank you for your letter of inquiry of January 6.
"The world Jewish population figures printed in this
story came from the 1948 edition of the World Almanac.
Later we checked it with the American Jewish Committee and
other sources and said in the correction, as I noted to you
in my previous letter, that the authorities agree that
Hitler's wholesale massacre of Jews during the war reduced
the Jewish population to perhaps 12 million today (2/26/48).
"If Mr. Freedman met with me I do not remember it.
The problem is of course, that you are talking about events
that took place 19 years ago. I see hundreds of people per
year, many of them only for a few minutes so I could not
swear that I did not see Mr. Freedman but if I did it made
no impression either upon me or upon my assistant.
"I do not know what Mr. Freedman means by examination
of documents but to my knowledge we had no particular
documents bearing on the issue in question.
"I hope this answers your questions; if there is
anything else you wish to know please do not hesitate to
write again.
"Sincerely, Hanson W. Baldwin (Military Editor)"

For the complete story, see this article from Annie Alpert, posted in 1996.

the annie alpert article: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/ftp.cgi?people//f/freedman.benjamin/background-data

[Lamprecht]

I have looked on the forum for a counter argument to the following post at Nizkor - would be grateful for any comment that can debunk this or point me to the post on the forum where it has already been addressed:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/worldalmanac.html

Editor: Ken McVay
Authors: Annie Alpert, John Morris In August of 1997, an author identifying himself as Bob Djurdjevic, the founder of "Truth in Media," included the following paragraph in a letter to The Arizona Republic:

"The World Almanac for 1940 gives the world's Jewish population as 15,319,359. The World Almanac for 1949 puts the number of Jews in the world at 15,713,638.

"If the World Almanac figures are correct, "the world's Jewish population did not decrease in the war decade, but showed a small increase."

The 1949 figure offered by Mr. Djurdjevic was, as you're about to see, an outright lie, as was the conclusion drawn.

When citing the World Almanac as a source for data "proving" that there was no Jewish population decline during World War II, Holocaust deniers are simply propagating one of the standard denier myths that has recurred regularly for more than a decade.

The problem has nothing whatever to do with rates of population increase or anything like that. It has to do with how frequently the World Almanac's sources had access to fresh estimates of religious populations.

Whoever first started propagating World Almanac figures neglected to mention that all figures before
1949 were from 1938 estimates. Since the year of etimate is given at the top of the chart it is difficult to believe that the originator did not intentionally mean to decieve by negelecting this key piece of information.

I have posted the following correction several times:

The University of Alberta library has the World Almanac issues for the pertinent period for 1941, 1944, 1947, 1948, and 1949. The figures listed for total world Jewish population are as follows:


1941 15,748,091
1944 15,192,089
1947 15,688,259
1948 15,688,259
1949 11,266,600

Now you may be wondering what happened to all those Jews in 1948-49. No fresh estimates were made between 1938 and 1947. The figures listed for 1941, 1947, and 1948 are identified as estimates made in 1938. The source for the estimate for 1944 is not given, and the numbers are listed differently than in other years. In 1944, the numbers are given as a part of a list of various world religions rather than standing on their own with a country-by-country breakdown as in the other years.

Only in 1949 are postwar estimates employed, the figures given are for estimates made in 1948. A year or two lag seems to be common for various other population estimates given by the World Almanac.

The difference between the 1938 and 1948 figures is thus 4,481,491.

In 1949, however, the World Almanac gives a revised 1939 population of 16,643,120 giving a difference of between 1938 and 1947 of 5,376,520. Where the extra population between 1938 and 1939 came from is not cited, though one might speculate that it was based upon the Nazi estimates made in 1942 for the Wannsee Conference.

Despite the apparent exactness of the numbers listed, the World Almanac warns that all numbers listed are estimates.

The World Almanac estimates figured prominently in another instance of the Gambit when the New York Times published inflated estimates of the post-war Jewish population in 1948, and early deniers used the story to dismiss claims of 6 million Jewish deaths. i

The Times later explained that their data had come from the 1948 World Almanac in this letter to Morris Kominsky from the author of the piece:

"Dear Mr. Kominsky,
"Thank you for your letter of inquiry of January 6.
"The world Jewish population figures printed in this
story came from the 1948 edition of the World Almanac.
Later we checked it with the American Jewish Committee and
other sources and said in the correction, as I noted to you
in my previous letter, that the authorities agree that
Hitler's wholesale massacre of Jews during the war reduced
the Jewish population to perhaps 12 million today (2/26/48).
"If Mr. Freedman met with me I do not remember it.
The problem is of course, that you are talking about events
that took place 19 years ago. I see hundreds of people per
year, many of them only for a few minutes so I could not
swear that I did not see Mr. Freedman but if I did it made
no impression either upon me or upon my assistant.
"I do not know what Mr. Freedman means by examination
of documents but to my knowledge we had no particular
documents bearing on the issue in question.
"I hope this answers your questions; if there is
anything else you wish to know please do not hesitate to
write again.
"Sincerely, Hanson W. Baldwin (Military Editor)"

For the complete story, see this article from Annie Alpert, posted in 1996.

the annie alpert article: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/ftp.cgi?people//f/freedman.benjamin/background-data

What is there to debunk?
What are we reading? Apparently, Jewish groups told them to change numbers because "authorities" agreed that Hitler massacred jews and reduced their population to "perhaps" 12 million.