Moderator: Moderator
How time passes. The "memory of witnesses" is of course one of the least reliable forms of evidence.Claude Lanzmann, the journalist and film director whose obsession with the Nazi genocide brought forth “Shoah,” a groundbreaking film that relived the annihilation of Jews through the memories of witnesses, died on Thursday in Paris. He was 92.
The Shoah adventure begins here: my friend Alouf Hareven, director of the department at the Israeli Foreign Ministry, summoned me one day and spoke to me with gravity and solemnity that I did not know to him. After congratulating me on Why Israel, he basically says this:
"There is no film on the Holocaust, not a film that embraces the event in its totality and magnitude, not a film that gives it to see from our point of view, from the point of view of the Jews. It is not a question of making a film about the Holocaust, but a film that is the Shoah. We think that only you are able to do it. We know all the difficulties you have encountered to carry out Why Israel. If you accept, we'll help you as much as we can. "
Hektor wrote:hermod wrote:[
As a Zionist himself, Adenauer knew what he was talking about when he mentioned "the power of the Jews." However, I doubt that it was Adenauer's only concern/motive when he endorsed the Holohoax on behalf of postwar Germany and when he negotiated the agreement on German 'reparations' with his Zionist colleague Na[c]hum Goldmann, knowing to what extent this endorsement and this money were crucial in founding and funding the state of Israel in its genesis & early years.
http://s25.postimg.cc/jholyxctb/Holocau ... er_Pro.jpg
https://s25.postimg.cc/xexsgra8v/Holoca ... le_May.jpg
https://s25.postimg.cc/bh1bmyv8f/Holoca ... h_1959.jpg
https://s25.postimg.cc/qsb4nkskf/Holoca ... ldmann.jpg
https://s25.postimg.cc/q42a4mtun/Holoca ... ldmann.jpg
Unfortunately the linked pictures aren't working anymore.
But with the fall of Hitler we became a factor of world importance. We have a state which is recognized by most other countries, respected by many, detested by others, and occasionally admired. Even within the Diaspora we have never had such a good position: after Auschwitz, non-Jews had a bad conscience and tended to give us privileged treatment....
That is why they voted in favour of the Jewish state. In spite of that, I am not certain that without Auschwitz there would be a Jewish state today. If Ben Gurion was still alive he would protest vigorously, but I am sure that truth is on my side. When the facts about Auschwitz became known, the reality appeared incredible. Even in the American State Department, some officials blamed themselves for not having rescued some tens of thousands of Jews, and they started to give positive consideration to the project for a Jewish state which would save the United States from receiving the survivors of Nazism.
Hektor wrote:'The Jewish Paradox' by Nahum Goldmann can be downloaded here:
https://archive.org/details/goldmann-na ... dox-1978-2But with the fall of Hitler we became a factor of world importance. We have a state which is recognized by most other countries, respected by many, detested by others, and occasionally admired. Even within the Diaspora we have never had such a good position: after Auschwitz, non-Jews had a bad conscience and tended to give us privileged treatment....
That is why they voted in favour of the Jewish state. In spite of that, I am not certain that without Auschwitz there would be a Jewish state today. If Ben Gurion was still alive he would protest vigorously, but I am sure that truth is on my side. When the facts about Auschwitz became known, the reality appeared incredible. Even in the American State Department, some officials blamed themselves for not having rescued some tens of thousands of Jews, and they started to give positive consideration to the project for a Jewish state which would save the United States from receiving the survivors of Nazism.
And gaining privilege would not influence your actions with regards to topics that secure your privilege?
Gerhart M. Riegner
secretary-general of the World Jewish Congress from 1965 to 1983
Life
On August 8, 1942, he sent the famous Riegner Telegram through diplomatic channels to Stephen Samuel Wise, president of the World Jewish Congress.
His telegram was the first official communication about the planned Holocaust. It read in part:
"Have received through foreign office following message from Riegner Geneva STOP Received alarming report that in Führers headquarters plan discussed and under consideration all Jews in countries occupied or controlled Germany number 3½ to 4 million should after deportation and concentration in East at one blow exterminated to resolve once and for all Jewish question in Europe. Never did I feel so strongly the sense of abandonment, powerlessness and loneliness as when I sent messages of disaster and horror to the free world and no one believed me."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhart_M._Riegner
hermod wrote:Hektor wrote:'The Jewish Paradox' by Nahum Goldmann can be downloaded here:
https://archive.org/details/goldmann-na ... dox-1978-2But with the fall of .... Nazism.
And gaining privilege would not influence your actions with regards to topics that secure your privilege?
Especially the privilege of stealing Palestine from its legitimate owners.
A quote even more interesting when one knows that Nahum Goldmann had hired the guy who sent "the first official communication about the planned Holocaust" in August 1942...[b]Gerhart M. Riegner
secretary-general of the World Jewish Congress from 1965 to 1983
Life
On August 8, 1942, he sent the famous Riegner Telegram through diplomatic channels to Stephen Samuel Wise, president of the World Jewish Congress.
His telegram was the first official communication about the planned Holocaust. It read in part:
"Have received through foreign office following message from Riegner Geneva STOP Received alarming report that in Führers headquarters plan discussed and under consideration all Jews in countries occupied or controlled Germany number 3½ to 4 million should after deportation and concentration in East at one blow exterminated to resolve once and for all Jewish question in Europe. Never did I feel so strongly the sense of abandonment, powerlessness and loneliness as when I sent messages of disaster and horror to the free world and no one believed me."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhart_M._Riegner
Hektor wrote:Too bad that nobody else heard that this was discussed in "Führers headquarters" then. And apparently Allied prosecutors did believe that neither during the IMT.
Hektor wrote:There were articles about Riegner and his foreknowledge:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/237356957?searchTerm=Gerhart%20Riegner#
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/arti ... 20Riegner#
Reuters
February 25, 2002
U.S. Planting False Stories Common Cold War Tactic
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Recognizing that sometimes the pen is mightier than the sword, the CIA has a colorful history of planting false information in media outlets overseas, with results ranging from irritating the Soviet Union to paving the way for a coup in Latin America.
Disinformation measures were a common tool in most CIA covert operations, and the Soviet Union elevated the practice to an art form during the Cold War, intelligence experts say.
"You would try and recruit a journalist and he would become an agent of influence," a former U.S. intelligence officer said.
The foreign journalist was either paid or acted out of hatred for a regime that harmed his family, "and he would plant stories which were favorable to your side," he said.
"The Russians did it, the Brits do it, the French do it -- it's regular intelligence procedure to try and influence a country's policies through the press," he said.
https://sgp.fas.org/news/2002/02/re022502.html
Hektor wrote:Riegner also chipped into the 'Bomb Auschwitz' debate:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/arti ... 0/29234999
Now demanding to bomb a place were Jews are interned by an Jewish official is quite rich. Bombing the Krema would have lead to far more death in Auschwitz... Which they then would blame on whom?
hermod wrote:Hektor wrote:Too bad that nobody else heard that this was discussed in "Führers headquarters" then. And apparently Allied prosecutors did believe that neither during the IMT.
That's probably the reason why Riegner waited for the death of his alleged German informant (Eduard Schulte) before "revealing" his name. Ghosts rarely deny the false claims about themselves, don't they?
....
Couldn't a suspicious person call "using the State Department cable facilities at Geneva" to send a message about the Holocaust a very convenient way of planting false information in the files of U.S. government agencies for later use? The CIA seemed to be of that opinion during the Cold War.....
Schulte had opportunities to travel often between Breslau in Silesia and Zürich in Switzerland, where he had contacts with Allen W. Dulles, with the dissident German consul Hans Bernd Gisevius, and Polish and French intelligence contacts, according to various sources.
In 1942, Schulte learned about the Final Solution concept, and in July 1942 he told Isidor Koppelman who relayed the information to Gerhart M. Riegner, the Swiss representative of World Jewish Congress. In August 1942, the Riegner Telegram notified the Allies, but they largely ignored the information which stated the estimated number of 3.5 to 4 million Jews, and the planned use of hydrogen cyanide.
In 1943, the Gestapo noticed his activities, and Schulte had to flee permanently to Switzerland with his wife, while his two sons had to remain under German control to fight in the Wehrmacht. One son was killed in the war.[2]
After the war, Schulte remained silent. Riegner always refused to acknowledge who had supplied him with the information as this was "the one request he ever made of me".
In May 1942 the Bund sent a radio message to London that 700,000 Jews had already been exterminated in Poland, and on 2 July the BBC broadcast the essence of the report in Europe. The Polish government in-exile used the Bund alarm in its own English-language press propaganda.
Wise and Goldmann, who was in the United States throughout the war, never doubted that Riegner's report was true. According to Walter Laqueur, they feared that publicity would add to the despair of the victims.522 Yehuda Bauer is certain that the American Jewish leaders were already aware of the Bund report.
Hektor wrote:The standard narrative has Hoess discovering HCN as killing agent himself and on his own initiative.
Hektor wrote:Brenner states in 'Zionism in the age of dictators':In May 1942 the Bund sent a radio message to London that 700,000 Jews had already been exterminated in Poland, and on 2 July the BBC broadcast the essence of the report in Europe. The Polish government in-exile used the Bund alarm in its own English-language press propaganda.
Jews in Nazi-Occupied Countries
BBC: 700,000 Jews killed in Poland
(June 2, 1942)
In May 1942, a Bund underground activist in Warsaw, Leon Feiner, sent a preliminary report to London containing information on the murder of Jews in various parts of Poland. The report traced the path of the murder actions: town after town, district after district, month by month. It described the extermination center at Chelmno, including the gas vans, and estimated the number of Jews whom the Germans had murdered in Poland by May at 700,000 (the figure was much higher). Feiner stated that, in the absence of substantive actions to halt the murders, no Jews would survive in Europe by the end of the war. The report also urged the Allies to adopt a policy of retaliation against German citizens residing in Allied countries.
Feiner´s report was forwarded to the media and to the political echelon, including the Polish government-in-exile in London, and became the decisive factor in the eruption of reports on the mass murder and their assimilation in public opinion.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/bb ... -in-poland
Hektor wrote:Extermination rumors were useful to shock panic Jews so they would be more eager to cooperate with partisans. There is indication in this in the narrative written on world war two.
curioussoul wrote:Hektor wrote:The standard narrative has Hoess discovering HCN as killing agent himself and on his own initiative.
Last time I checked the official story has it that Hoess was on a business trip and his subordinate Fritsch discovered it by chance while trying to kill Russian prisoners of war in the Main Camp.
I know that Hoess' statements are full of irresolvable contradictions which go completely ignored by mainstream historians, but to my knowledge they had decided on the Fritsch discover arc rather than Hoess himself discovering it.
"....hat's true. The current orthodox/exterminationist/antirevisionist narrative claims that two almost unschooled gaolers --- Karl Fritzsch & Rudolf Höss --- invented and successfully used an unprecedented chemical weapon of mass destruction for the mass slaughter of millions of people 8 decades ago, ..."
"Maybe. But they were even more useful to legitimize the postwar Zionist land grabbing enterprise in Palestine."
Hektor wrote:Hoess apparently had some education. But I'd guess not much more than was sufficient for filling that senior administrative post in Auschwitz. But that's it. No technical expertise to work with dangerous gases, which HCN was. And that's indeed something he would have known.
Hektor wrote:The 'Hoess memoirs' are indeed rather an embarrassment for the exterminationist narrative. But, if you can presume that people believe in it by default, that usually isn't really a problem. It's save to assume that 99.9% of people would never spend time and effort to analyze it themselves. And those noticing that there is something seriously wrong with the narrative will realize, if only by intuition, not to say too much against it publicly.
Hektor wrote:'Some education' as in not having a college degree. (Only 8 percent of Germans did have something like this at the time, anyway). It appears that he had some other gaps as well and that he repeated a year in school. Hoess had indeed some 'working experience' that was conducive. Although I doubt he was the brightest candle on the cake. It would suffice to manage/administer a 'detention camp'. He did however lack any characteristics of somebody that would be able to remotely do what is alleged. Inventing some revolutionary mass-killing device including proper, procedures equipment on its own. No way!
Hektor wrote:I think that it was (mostly) written by Hoess, but under supervision of somebody that did direct what was written there. Hoess doesn't strike me as a persona that would write some lengthy memoirs, simply because he didn't fall into that 'educated class' of Germans. Mediocre officials don't write memoirs (Not without being 'stimulated' or compelled to do so). They may write some essays about their past, but even that is rare. All that I can offer is a working hypothesis, though. One that got reasons behind it though. The writing of 'memoires' or 'biographic summaries' was part of brainwashing programs during that era. That's how the Chinese Communists did it with prisoners. Have them write something about themselves to have a good identity profile and then go and use this knowledge during interrogation and brainwashing sessions against them.
Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests
