Challenge to Believer NFrNJ : When did "Final Solution" become extermination?

[Lamprecht]

In the following post: viewtopic.php?p=95564#p95564

Poster "NFrNJ" claimed:

So, according to many historians, a Finally, really Final, Final, Final, FINAL solution was started. Secretly, of course, so you don't tell the labour minister as it is none of his business (or maybe you do, but it is a reichsecret so he does not tell his underlings and fobs them off with an excuse when he tells them to stop working on what they think is THE final solution, because it is no longer the solution being pursued...) and for which there are many testimonials and other evidence to suggest that it might just have happened.

So, even though Lamprecht recognizes that "the final solution" changed several times according to the exigencies of war, one wonders why that final final final final final change to the plan is somehow impossible? Or that the earlier documents (with ever changing versions of different final solutions) are the last word?

For context, he was highlighting the fact that the very real Third Reich "Final Solution" policy was not perfectly identical in every way for the entirety of its existence. Although the "Final Solution" policy was always "Remove Jews from our living spaces" various destinations were considered/dismissed/contemplated as conditions changed, so he would add another "Final" for each of these. NFrNJ is just trying to be a comedian here, so his false statement of "changing versions of different final solutions" should merely be construed as a weak attempt at sarcastic humor rather than a serious argument.

Additionally, it is quite obvious that exterminating Jews was far from "impossible." With a bit of research, a layman could design an "extermination camp" much more efficient for this purpose than any of the ones the Nazis allegedly used. The evidence would be everywhere if Jews were truly exterminated. But that's getting too far off topic...

The challenge is simple, NFrNJ claims that the "Final Solution" changed from deportation/resettlement/evacuation/internment to "exterminate the Jews" at some particular point in history.
In your opinion, NFrNJ, when did this change occur?

[forasanerworld]

"With a bit of research, a layman could design an "extermination camp" far more efficient for this purpose than any of the ones the Nazis allegedly used."

Too true, why waste money and resources on gassings and all its aparatus or even bullets, just a large open fenced area with no water (other than rain) and everyone is dead in about a week.

[Lamprecht]

"With a bit of research, a layman could design an "extermination camp" far more efficient for this purpose than any of the ones the Nazis allegedly used."

Too true, why waste money and resources on gassings and all its aparatus or even bullets, just a large open fenced area with no water (other than rain) and everyone is dead in about a week.

NFrNJ can go make a thread about the various camps and show how efficient they were if he wants. But that's not the point of this thread/challenge, and NFrNJ seems to have a special habit of dodging, derailing, nitpicking minor points, etc.

All I want to know is what exact date he is referring to here. I guess the precise date and time may be too much to ask for, but "the [n]th week of [month] of [year]" would be very much appreciated. At the very least he could tell us which month, and why. He mentioned "historians" so he must have a good idea on where to find this answer. Since there is no actual consensus among exterminationists regarding this question, we need to know what he, personally, believes is the case here

[NFrNJ]

NFrNJ seems to have a special habit of dodging, derailing, nitpicking minor points, etc.

Well your habit of straw man building and frankly lying about what your interlocutors do is obviously on display here. I really do not know what you mean by "derailing" - you are the one that keeps doing that. I am sorry if I try to stick to the thread topic, and call you up on poorly worded comments, and false claims. Perhaps you should just be allowed to spout rubbish and never be challenged at all. Would you prefer that?

All I want to know is what exact date he is referring to here. I guess the precise date and time may be too much to ask for, but "the [n]th week of [month] of [year]" would be very much appreciated. At the very least he could tell us which month, and why. He mentioned "historians" so he must have a good idea on where to find this answer. Since there is no actual consensus among exterminationists regarding this question, we need to know what he, personally, believes is the case here

I am glad you accept that there is considerable difficulty in pinning it down to an exact date. Obviously the policy of mass murder of entire villages on the eastern front (not to be excused by the lack of the perpetrators signing internal conventions - it is still murder of innocents and collective punishment) could be seen as part of it or a precursor. The experiments with the gas vans in 1941 and the first gassings in Block 11 at Auschwitz and the foundation of the Operation Reinhardt camps I would suggest put the process of industrialising murder into full swing by mid 1942. So some policy decision would have to have been made by that time, by someone. Of course others outside the secret operation would not have known that, so there is room for people to be still using the term "Final Solution" to mean one of the many versions of often brutal deportation accompanied by theft and slavery, while others were using it for less humanitarian treatment.

[borjastick]

It's just a side show, a snake oil salesman in full flow.

It matters not what any of the senior Nazi leaders wrote or did not write in their diaries. What matters is what has been found to be realistic and scientifically proven since the claims of the holocaust surfaced.

All this 'strawmen' this and 'strawmen' that is childish and like a bunch of democrats arguing about how long the world has before it is consumed by CO2. It's just 8th grade and very bad debating.

As they say 'you need to shit or get off the pot.'

What was it that little old woman said in the beefburger commercial?

Where's the beef?

[NFrNJ]

Where's the beef?

good question. what was your point? you managed to say nothing at all in your post that was of any relevance or interest.

[Lamprecht]

A simultaneous discussion is going on in the following thread:

Goebbels diary entry, March 1942 - page 2
viewtopic.php?t=3763&start=15

Much of the discussion that was going on there is more relevant to this thread, and I was planning on quoting some of NFrNJ's statements from that thread here, but then his post was removed.

NFrNJ:

I am glad you accept that there is considerable difficulty in pinning it down to an exact date

Certainly, despite the oft-repeated claim that the "Holocaust" conspiracy theory is "the best documented genocide in history" it actually is not well documented at all. The people who make such absurd claims are either ignorant or lying. They also claim that physical evidence exists which proves the "Holocaust" (and if the narrative was true, they would be correct) but refuse to actually show it. This creates another "difficulty" but that is by design.

If some hypothetical individual was given only the surviving war-time documents and statements from German officials -- no post-war "testimony" or "confessions" -- and managed to read them all, he undoubtedly would come to the conclusion that the "Final Solution" policy was exactly what the documents described it as. And if he was then shown all of the physical evidence which has been actually shown to exist that is attributed to the so-called "Holocaust" his position wouldn't budge one inch!

Obviously the policy of mass murder of entire villages on the eastern front (not to be excused by the lack of the perpetrators signing internal conventions - it is still murder of innocents and collective punishment) could be seen as part of it or a precursor.

I would very much appreciate it if you made a thread on one of these claimed villages where the entire Jewish population was murdered (or simply killed). I make the distinction here because "Murder" is defined as unlawful killing, which means that a law must have been broken in the process. An international convention known as "The 1929 Geneva Convention" was signed by Germany but not the USSR. I do not know if every stipulation within this 1929 document applied to signatories even when their enemies didn't sign it (it's lengthy and I haven't read it all) but the 1949 [post-WWII] Geneva Convention states:
"Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof."

Again, I haven't found where the [very lengthy] 1929 agreement discusses that particular point, but I would be curious to know (if it was indeed the case) why the 1929 agreement required compliance even when at war with non-signatories, but this wasn't carried over onto the 1949 agreement.

The 1929 agreement does however explicitly prohibit reprisals against POWs. But it does not prohibit reprisals against civilians. Naturally we can easily make the argument that mass shootings of civilians in response to terrorist acts they were not involved in was tactically questionable and morally vacuous. But it was not actually against the law. In the USA at least, ex post facto laws are forbidden by our constitution and I apply that legal standard here. If it was not a crime when the action took place, it can not be deemed "illegal" retroactively. Again, I recognize there is a difference between "legal" and "morally unobjectionable."

Like I explained in my post in the Goebbels diary thread the National Socialists saw the Second World War as a war between "the Aryan race" and "international Jews" along with their gentile collaborators. And these things did happen on both sides: The death of US General Maurice Rose resulted in over 100 Germans being executed who had nothing to do with it. The term "Marocchinate" describes an incident of mass rape of women, children, and even some males at Monte Cassino, often to death. The perpetrators were primarily North African troops in the French expeditionary corps as the French stood by and watched it happen.

Atrocities perpetrated by the "Allies" were typically not scrutinized to the same degree as the [real, exaggerated, or fake] atrocities attributed to the Axis. Multiple scholars (Lawyers, judges, military officers, historians, etc) criticized the "War Crimes Trials" for the aforementioned reasons along with many others.

Regardless, I would like to see threads on these supposed villages.

The experiments with the gas vans in 1941 and the first gassings in Block 11 at Auschwitz and the foundation of the Operation Reinhardt camps I would suggest put the process of industrialising murder into full swing by mid 1942.

So by mid 1942 the "Final Solution" became an extermination policy. Your examples are
(1) alleged gas van experiments in 1941
(2) an alleged gassing in Auschwitz block 11 (also 1941), and
(3) the foundation of the AR camps (1942)

It is very much encouraged that you make threads to substantiate your claims in #1 and #2.

#3 is a huge topic (spanning multiple camps) so it might be best split into multiple threads, but that depends on whether you have any actual, hard evidence that they were extermination centers. I will suggest you read the bottom of this post, on "the hierarchy of evidence."

I have used some of my notes to create a rough timeline of "Holocaust" related events for the year 1942 (starting right before and ending right after), which I will post below. I added in multiple Goebbels' diaries because of our discussion in the other thread. There are many events missing, you're welcome to offer suggestions

[Lamprecht]

NFrNJ alleged that "by mid 1942" the "Final Solution" became extermination of the Jews. When we look at the Hierarchy of evidence (bottom of post) we will see that [after common sense and the laws of nature] physical/material evidence is the strongest form of evidence in this historical dispute.
NFrNJ has posted no physical evidence to substantiate "Holocaust" fantasies (meaning: refutes "Holocaust denial") and certainly never will.
This is despite the fact that even though his "Holocaust" story, if true, would result in millions of pounds of physical evidence existing in known locations.

So the focus here will mainly be on the much less definitive documentary evidence.

---

Timeline

11 December 1941:
Germany is officially at war with the USA, and Operation Barbarossa has been going on for just over 6 months


18 December 1941: (Goebbels)
"I speak with the Führer regarding the Jewish Question. He is determined to take consistent action and not be deterred by bourgeois sentimentality. Above all, the Jews must leave the Reich (aus...heraus) ... The Jews should all be deported (abgeschoben) to the East. We are not very interested in what becomes of them after that."


12 January 1942:
A circular was sent out in German occupied Ukraine by Reichskommissar Ukraine Erich Koch and HSSPF Russland-Süd Hans-Adolf Prützmann requesting regional commissars and SS-policemen to identify possible future ghettos near railway links to where Jews could be resettled. (Zhytomyr State Archives (ZSA), P1151-1-137, p. 8; cited in "Wendy Lower, Nazi Empire-Building and the Holocaust in Ukraine" p. 89)


20 January 1942:
Wannsee Conference takes place. The accompanying text (Wannsee Protocols) explain that the "Final Solution" was not a policy of Jewish extermination, but
"the expulsion of the Jews from the living space of the German people."
It also stated that
"Another possible solution of the problem has now taken the place of emigration, i.e. the evacuation of the Jews to the East" viewtopic.php?t=1647


10 February 1942:
Franz Rademacher sent to another Third Reich official a memo, stating
"The war against the Soviet Union has in the meantime created the opportunity to use other territories for the Final Solution. Accordingly, the Führer has decided that the Jews will not be shoved to Madagascar but rather to the east. Madagascar no longer needs to be earmarked for the Final Solution" (Document NG-3933 of the Wilhelmstrasse trial)


7 March 1942: (Goebbels)
"I read a detailed report from the SD and police regarding a final solution of the Jewish Question. Any final solution involves a tremendous number of new viewpoints. The Jewish Question must be solved within a pan-European frame. There are 11 million Jews still in Europe. They will have to be concentrated later, to begin with, in the East; possibly an island, such as Madagascar, can be assigned to them after the war. In any case there can be no peace in Europe until the last Jews are shut off from (ausgeschaltet) the continent."
He is probably referencing the Wannsee protocols here


17 March 1942:
(1) "The systematic mass murder of Jews begins in Belzec" - USHMM

(2) Fritz Reuter memo on Hoefle conversation; Full text: viewtopic.php?p=92065#p92065
The memo states:
- Jews were to be split into those fit and unfit for work
- The fit were to be used for work
- Belzec was used to sort those who can work "with a file denoting their professions"
- Jews unfit for work would be sent to Belzec and then "be moved beyond the border and never return to the General Government [occupied Poland]"

This contradicts the assertion that Belzec was a "pure extermination camp" where over 99% of the Jews (fit or unfit) were gassed, excepting just a few hundred or so being used at any one time as slaves to keep the operation going


20 March 1942: (Goebbels)
"...Finally we talk about the Jewish question. Here the Führer is as uncompromising as ever. The Jews must be gotten out of (aus...heraus) Europe, if necessary by applying most brutal methods."


27 March 1942: (Goebbels)
The diary entry discussed in the Goebbels thread (linked above), wherein Goebbels states
"Beginning with Lublin, the Jews in the General Government are now being evacuated (abgeschoben) eastward."
There is also the 40/60 figure, and
"The ghettos that will be emptied in the cities of the General Government will now be refilled with Jews thrown out of the Reich. This process is to be repeated from time to time."


29 March 1942 (Goebbels):
"In large part the Jews are once again being evacuated (evakuiert) from Berlin. About one thousand per week are shipped (verfrachtet) to the East. The suicide rate under this Jewish evacuation is extraordinarily high. This does not bother me, however."


March / April 1942 (date unknown):
The "Schlegelberger letter" states that
"Reich Minister Lammers informed me that the Führer had repeatedly declared to him that he wants to hear that the Solution of the Jewish Problem has been postponed until after the war is over" viewtopic.php?t=534


10 April 1942 (Goebbels):
After cheering that German suicides are down and Jewish suicides are up, he writes
"At the moment I cannot conduct rigorous evacuations (Evakuierungen), because the strong remaining Jews are needed for the armaments process. But here too a remedy will surely be found in the coming weeks."


20 April 1942 (Goebbels):
"The most recent act of sabotage [in France] against a German military train which resulted in several deaths will be punished with severe reprisals. The number of people to be shot will be doubled, and over a thousand Communists and Jews will be put into freight cars and shipped (verfrachtet) to the East."
I wonder would some be "shipped to the east" [to be gassed] when they could have just been shot right there as well.


24 April 1942 (Goebbels):
Goebbels complains about Bolshevik propaganda of Germans committing cannibalism, blames it all on "international Jewry" and then states
"We will be doing humanity a great service if we permanently remove them (entfernen) from public life and stick them in quarantine."


27 April 1942: (Goebbels)
"I talked to the Führer once more in detail about the Jewish Question. His attitude is unrelenting. He wants, under all circumstances, to push the Jews out (herausdrängen) of Europe... Himmler is presently implementing a large resettlement (Umseidlung) of Jews from German cities to the eastern ghettos."


29 April 1942: (Goebbels)
"The danger of the Partisans continues to exist in unmitigated intensity in the occupied areas. The Partisans have, after all, caused us very great difficulties... Short shrift (kurzen Prozess) is made of the Jews in all eastern occupied areas. Tens of thousands must bite the dust, and the Fuhrer's prophecy is fulfilled for them, that Jewry has to pay for inciting a new World War with the complete extripation (Ausrottung) of their race."
Goebbels seems to be aware that "tens of thousands" would die in the east, if this was some extermination of Jews policy (and not merely a question of fighting a partisan/guerilla war) why would he continually refer to the "Final Solution" as something else? It's inconceivable that someone could be aware of a policy of killing every Jew but somehow still think "Final Solution" is mass resettlement.


16-18 May 1942:
"On either 16 or 18 May 1942, Sobibor became fully operational and began mass gassing operations" (Wikipedia)
No "huge mass graves" at Sobibor have been shown to exist containing even 0.1% of the alleged 250,000 gassed Jews. 14 months later, Himmler will order:
"The transit camp Sobibór is to be converted into a concentration camp. In the concentration camp a plant for the repair of captured munitions is to be established."


17 May 1942: (Goebbels)
"We are trying now to evacuate (evakuieren) the remaining Jews in Berlin to the East, on a larger scale. One third of all Jews living in Germany are located in the capital... due to the fact that, in Berlin, relatively many Jews are working in the military-industrial establishment, and, per regulation, neither they nor their families can be evacuated (evakuiert). I am seeking a repeal of this regulation, and will try to remove (aus…herauszubringen) all Jews from Berlin who are not directly engaged in war industries."


28 May 1942: (Goebbels)
"Ten Jews in concentration camps or under the earth are dearer to me than one in freedom."
The distinction here is that "concentration camps" is not death, even though some were supposedly set up for that sole purpose already.


29 May 1942: (Goebbels)
"The Jews who remain in the Reich naturally represent an extremely dangerous contingent. They really belong in prison... I am constantly trying to transport (verfrachten) as many Jews as possible to the East; once they are out of reach (aus der Reichweite heraus), they can then do us no harm, at least for the time being."


30 May 1942: (Goebbels)
"The Führer does not at all wish that the Jews should be evacuated (evakuiert) to Siberia... He would much prefer to resettle (aussiedeln) them in central Africa... In any case, it is the Führer's goal to make Western Europe completely Jew-free. Here they may no longer have their homeland."


It is typically estimated that 2 million Jews had died by now with Sobibor and Belzec gassing Jews and Treblinka II soon to come. Goebbels clearly knew nothing of any plan to exterminate Jews and if such a thing was occurring then Hitler must have been lying to him about it. He is describing a plan to temporarily resettle them to eastern ghettos if their labor is not explicitly needed and then whenver it is expedient (post-war) to remove them completely from Europe.


18 July 1942:
The date of a surviving, signed "Operation Reinhard Secrecy Oath": viewtopic.php?t=12924
To be signed by those
"with special duties in the execution of tasks in the evacuation of Jews within the framework of 'Einsatz Reinhardt'"


23 July 1942:
"Treblinka [II extermination camp] becomes fully operational" (Wikipedia)
"Gassing Operations Begin at Treblinka" (USHMM)


13 August 1942:
Karl Wolff memo to Albert Ganzenmüller: viewtopic.php?t=10360
In response to "The Ganzenmuller Letter" regarding deporting Jews to Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka – Wolff stated that he was very glad to hear about their plan
"to accelerate this population transfer"


21 August 1942:
(1) Goebbels:
"The Jews are now in large part evacuated (evakuiert) and established in the East. This is quite generous to them. Here the Jewish Question is tackled in the right place, without sentimentality and without much consideration. Only in this way can the Jewish problem be solved."

(2) the Luther Memorandum states:
"Heydrich informed the Reich Foreign Minister that the whole problem of the approximately 3.25 million Jews in the areas under German control can no longer be solved by emigration; a territorial final solution would be necessary... Heydrich explained that Reichsmarschall Goering's assignment to him had been made on the Fuehrer's instructions and that the Fuehrer instead of emigration has now authorized the evacuation of the Jews to the East as the solution... The deportation to the General Gouvernement is a provisionary measure. The Jews will be moved on further to the occupied Eastern territories as soon as the technical conditions for it are given" (Document NG-2586)


28 August 1942:
A report by Horst Ahnert on an SS meeting on the deportation of Jews from Auschwitz to the East states:
"It was demanded by the Kommandant of the internment camp Auschwitz that the necessary blankets, work shoes, and eating utensils are absolutely to be included in the transports... Eichmann asks to immediately effect the purchase of the barracks ordered by the commander of the Security Police Den Haag. The camp is to be established in Russia. The transporting of the barracks can be handled so that in every train transport 3-5 barracks are carried along." (CDJC, XXVI-59)


Semptember 1942:
(1) Majdanek, the sixth major "extermination camp" supposedly begins gassing 3,000 Jews per month, Chelmno is about to shut down so that this is the only month where all 6 of the infamous "extermination camps" are claimed to have been gassing Jews at the same time.

(2) In the so-called "Green Map/folder/portfolio" for the "Administration of the Economy in the Occupied Eastern Regions," it is stated that "After the War, the Jewish question will be solved overall throughout Europe," which is why until then everything would merely be "partial measures." It also declares "thuggish measures" against Jews to be "unworthy of Germans and must be avoided by all means." (EC-347. IMT, vol. XXXVI, p. 348)


5 September 1942:
Horst Ahnert of the Paris security police wrote that in conjunction with the "Final solution to the Jewish question" that the "deportation of Jews for purpose of labor" was about to begin. (CDJC, XXVI-61)


15 September 1942: (Goebbels)
"Schirach gave a speech to the European Youth Congress, that meets now in Vienna... Among other things, Schirach explained that he had evacuated (evakuiert) thousands and thousands of Jews out of Vienna and into the eastern ghettos."


1 October 1942: (Goebbels)
"Extraordinarily sharp and aggressive venting against the Jews [by the Führer], whom he threatens with destruction (Vernichtung), so far as they run into our area. I drive back to the Chancellery with the Führer. Once again we talk through the Jewish Question. Here the Führer takes the same radical standpoint I do. He is also of the opinion that we must completely deport the Jews out of the Reich (restlos herausschaffen), and above all from Berlin."
Somehow "completely deport the Jews" is a "radical standpoint" here. At the end of this month, over half a million Jews were supposedly gassed at Treblinka, 350+ thousand at Belzec, and 100+ thousand at Auschwitz. Why isn't Goebbels talking about this at all? Why didn't Hitler tell him? He was so happy to hear of tens of thousands getting shot, supposedly shot as part of this alleged "Exterminate the Jews as the Final Solution" policy. Goebbels clearly sees Jews being shot in the east, which he was fully aware of, as something distinct from the "Final Solution" policy.


9 October 1942:
Martin Bormann writes a document "Preparatory Measures for the Solution of the Jewish Problem in Europe-Rumors About the Position of the Jews in the East" (PS-3244) viewtopic.php?t=9280
"In the course of the work on the final solution of the Jewish problem..." he says that discussions of "very strict measures" of Jews in the East are taking place among Germans, "mostly in a distorted and exaggerated form."
Bormann states that not all Germans "are capable of demonstrating sufficient understanding for the necessity of such measures" but defines the "Final Solution" as:
- "The repulsion of Jews from the individual spheres of living of the German people"
- An "attempt to completely drive out the enemy from the area of the Reich"
Further, "Since the outbreak of war in 1939 these possibilities of emigration decreased" so that "a complete repulsion of the Jews by emigration is no longer possible."
As a result,
"A complete removal or withdrawal of the millions of Jews residing in the European economic space [Wirtschaftsraum] is therefore an urgent need"
He explains the present situation:
"the Jews are currently being deported to large camps which have already been established or which are to be established in the East, where they will either be used for work or else transported still farther to the East"
So, quite obviously mass resettlement of Jews was seen as a controversial subject.


It is around this period when the Allied atrocity propaganda efforts go into full force. Goebbels complains the entire month about this


25 November 1942:
New York Times reports: "Himmler program kills Polish Jews. Slaughter of 250,000 ..."


27 November 1942: (Goebbels)
"Also, the Jews have again become completely impudent, even in the Reich area. I will therefore take care that, at least from Berlin if possible, they will be quickly pushed out (abgeschoben). Next week a transport of 5,000 Berlin Jews will leave for the Eastern zone."


4 December 1942:
The London Times reports: "Nazi War on Jews: Deliberate Plan for Extermination."


6 December 1942: (Goebbels)
"A new suggestion was made on the liquidation (Liquidierung) of Jewish marriages. After that one wants to go to compulsive separations, and otherwise, as means to obtain evacuation (Evakuierung)... The Führer has also given me an order to first take care that the unprivileged full Jews are deported (herausgeschafft) from Germany. Once they are all gone, we can then approach the problem of the remaining Jews."


9 December 1942:
"The Jews throughout the world mobilize against us. They tell of terrible atrocities against the Jewish race which we allegedly allowed to happen in Poland, and now they threaten us in London and Washington to inflict a terrible punishment on all guilty parties after the war. That still cannot prevent us from bringing about a radical solution to the Jewish Question. In any case, we will just let this threat be. The Jews will probably not have anything else special to report from Europe."


17 December 1942: (Goebbels)
"The Jews continue to raise a fuss about the alleged atrocities in Poland... Eden speaks in the House of Commons on the issue of the Polish Jews. One sees in this a whole propaganda effort, a result of the strong Jewish influence on British public opinion"
UK Foreign Secretary Anthony Eden's statements can be read here: https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hans ... eclaration


December 1942:
Belzec is claimed to have stopped gassings, resulting in 450-600 thousand victims. Until mid-1943 however the corpses in the alleged mass graves were supposedly being dug up, burned in giant pyres made of railroad tracks, and then reburied in the same alleged pits. These pits have never been actually shown to exist anywhere near the quantities alleged, despite supposedly being in known locations.


By the end of 1942, the year "Final Solution" supposedly became extermination according to NFrNJ, over 1.5 million Jews were allegedly killed in the 6 "extermination camps" with 4 million total Jewish deaths overall.
And yet on December 17 Goebbels speaks of "alleged atrocities" and he refers to these accusations as "propaganda"? And he still discusses deportations and transporting Jews "to the east" (although that stops soon after, as I will highlight below).
I will only include a few events for 1943 since the claim was "by mid-1942", starting with what Goebbels said about Hitler's infamous Reichstag prophecy.


3 January 1943 (Goebbels):
"It's amazing how shortsightedly the Jews all over the world operate... They should expect this frivolous playing with fire to continue until they are completely wiped out (gänzlich vernichtet). This also corresponds to the Führer's prophecy, when he explained at the beginning of the war that it would not end with the destruction (Vernichtung) of the Aryan race, but with the expulsion (Austreibung) of Jewry from Europe."


11 January 1943:
Telegram by Hoefle summarizes AR deportations for Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec and Majdanek up to December 31, 1942. Hoefle is "Coordinator" of Aktion Reinhardt & deputy to Globocnik, the man claimed to be responsible for Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor "extermination camps" viewtopic.php?t=11146
The top-secret telegram (intercepted & decoded by the British) has no mention of mass murder at all. It includes the "1,274,166" total also found in the Korherr report which will be mentioned below. Hoefle was with Globocnik when he "committed suicide" on 31 May 1945. Hoefle was released after being interrogated, but later arrested in 1961. Shortly thereafter he "committed suicide" before his trial.


2 February 1943:
A turning point with the loss of the Battle of Stalingrad. The Germans were expelled from the Caucasus and everything gained in the 1942 Summer Campaign was slowly being lost.
As the Soviets were regaining these territories, evacuations "to the East" become completely infeasible. Using Jews for labor was now considered more practical than dumping them into ghettos, so the focus was shifted to Auschwitz (which had a synthetic-rubber and petroleum plant since May 1942) rather than Operation Reinhardt, which ended later this year.


2 March 1943: (Goebbels)
The last time his diaries mention evacuating Jews "to the East" (Although continually demands their removal afterwards):
"We are now definitely pushing the Jews out (aus…hinaus) of Berlin. They were suddenly rounded up last Saturday, and are to be carted off (abgeschoben) to the East as quickly as possible"


15 March 1943:
Auschwitz Krema II [according to Pressac] is first function as a homicidal gas chamber before its official entry into service on 31 March. Usually it's alleged that 350-500 thousand Jews were gassed in this building by November 1944.


23 March 1943:
Initial 16-page version of Korherr report "the Final Solution to the Jewish Question" describing European Jewish population reductions up to 31 December 1942.
There are three versions of Korherr's report with one for only Hitler and Himmler. In this version, the vague term "Special treatment" (Sonderbehandlung) was removed by Himmler's request (except in one instance where it was included under "Evacuation"). Korherr said post-war that he was told that the phrase did not mean killing in that instance.
Along with the same 1.27 million figure as the Hoefle telegram, there is also a "1,873,549" figure under "Evacuations total (including Theresienstadt and including special treatment)".
It is unlikely that these numbers are totally accurate as there was an incentive to reach certain benchmarks. And an unknown number in these figures would be Jews who self-deported (emigrated). There are many threads on the Korherr report if you use the search function


By August 1943, the Battle of Kursk had been lost and the war in the East was officially unwinnable

---

I don't see any reason to believe that "Final Solution" became "extermination of Jews" any time during 1942. In fact, various top-secret documents discussing the alleged "extermination camps" or Aktion Reinhardt suggest otherwise. And there is also literally no physical evidence at any of these "extermination camps" that can be shown to support the claim of mass exterminations.

No wonder the exterminationists have to trot out lying "eyewitnesses" and laughably fraudulent "confessions" - their "Holocaust" narrative is completely at odds with the facts

[borjastick]

Where's the beef?

good question. what was your point? you managed to say nothing at all in your post that was of any relevance or interest.

I said quite a lot buddy but I would guess most of it you don't like so you try to demean my very real comments. Provocative shyster. All mouth and trousers mate.

[NFrNJ]

Lamprecht has been playing on 4chan again, and challenging me to return here. I am loath to do so as he seems to be allowed to gish gallop and straw man, while anyone not supportive of denial is required to jump through high hoops of fire over every single thing they say. My posts pointing out that I am being penalised for not replying to straw man attacks have been deleted as dodging. My posts replying to Lamprecht's attempts to derail the thread have been deleted for being off topic.

However, if he agrees to stick to one point at a time, and refrain from his frequent abusive claims about my supposed mental health issues (ripe from someone still hawking the same invalid argument for all these years) perhaps we could discuss one of his claims above

Lamprecht wrote:

"And there is also literally no physical evidence at any of these "extermination camps" that can be shown to support the claim of mass exterminations."

He frequently claims this or something like it. I would like to know how he justifies this claim. Usually he combines it with some variant of the Gerdes manoeuvre of defining "evidence" as photographs of a very specific type from a very specific type of excavation. Surely he must admit that at best he can only claim that there are no photographs of the very specific type he asks for, and he cannot make any actual claim about the existence or non existence of the actual physical evidence at the site? Indeed given the wealth of other evidence that has been assembled by archaeologists at these sites his claim seems to be extraordinary. He knows of core samples, GPR and LIDAR results, probing with metal poles, test pits dug, field walking revealing masses of human remains on the surface, that every pit excavated at Treblinka has human remains in it even far from the mass graves, adn that the Treblinka Gold rush was a recorded problem, and that the site was surveyed and mass graves opened and reclosed in the past.

To claim there is no physical evidence (Indeed "literally no physical evidence") needs some justification surely?

If mods think this is worthy of a new thread I would be happy to take part in a debate with the great man. But as I say, one point at time please, and straw man attacks by all Lamprecht's buddies should be weeded out by the mods, not encouraged.

[Hannover]

Lamprecht wrote:

"And there is also literally no physical evidence at any of these "extermination camps" that can be shown to support the claim of mass exterminations."

NFrNJ says

He knows of core samples, GPR and LIDAR results, probing with metal poles, test pits dug, field walking revealing masses of human remains on the surface, that every pit excavated at Treblinka has human remains in it even far from the mass graves, adn that the Treblinka Gold rush was a recorded problem, and that the site was surveyed and mass graves opened and reclosed in the past.
To claim there is no physical evidence (Indeed "literally no physical evidence") needs some justification surely?

Really NFrNJ?. He "knows" or you wish?
Please show all of that to us.

Let's all remember, as I have said before;

There is not a single verifiable excavated enormous mass grave with contents actually SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, 1,250,000 at Auschwitz, or 250,000 at Sobibor, 34,000 at Babi Yar) even though Jews claim they still exist to this day and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are

l almost forgot, here we have what was found at Sobibor where it is claimed that the human remains of 250,000 Jews are buried.

What, maybe five skeletons vs. the claimed 250,000? LOL
And of these:
1. we don't even know that they are Jews
2. we don't even know that they were murdered vs. dying of disease
3. we don't even know that they are from the period
4. And recall there is no proof for the scientifically impossible diesel gas chambers that are alleged to be the murder weapon at Sobibor.

NFrNJ, we eagerly await seeing photos of what you claim.

- Hannover

[Lamprecht]

I would like to know how he justifies this claim

Either:
(1) The huge mass graves could be shown, because they exist, but they have not been shown
(2) They do exist and have been shown to exist
(3) They do not exist, and therefore they cannot be shown to exist
(4) ???

Please post the alleged human remains you claim have been proven to exist. There was already a thread created for this:

Challenge to Believer NFrNJ to Show us the Claimed Gigantic Human Remains said to Exist in Known Locations
viewtopic.php?t=13095

You said: viewtopic.php?p=95602#p95602

the treblinka Gold Rush was a real problem for them, as it exposed the mass graves.

How about you show us the claimed mass graves supposedly "exposed" at Treblinka?
You can make a brand new thread, or post it in the one created for the purpose.

EDIT:

Maybe you can submit something of value to this thread I just created:

Photographs of mass graves from "Extermination camp" Treblinka II
viewtopic.php?t=13692

[Otium]

Lamprecht wrote:

"And there is also literally no physical evidence at any of these "extermination camps" that can be shown to support the claim of mass exterminations."

He frequently claims this or something like it. I would like to know how he justifies this claim.

Revisionists do not claim that there is no evidence, as that would imply we're claiming something doesn't exist when it actually does. The only people making claims they cannot support - let alone justify - are the Believers such as yourself. If you have a problem with whatever you think Lamprecht is saying about physical remains, then you should be able to refute him, and the rest of us with evidence that these physical remains EXIST and prove the exterminationist myth.

YOU CANNOT, YOU HAVE FAILED.

You cannot deny that the Holocaust is bogus. You have no evidence.

There's nothing in existence that proves a deliberate policy to exterminate the Jews, nor the methods allegedly used, or evidence for such large scale murder as a result. If such pieces of what you think is "evidence" exists, can you quantify it? If so, can you possibly tell us how this compares to all the liberties taken in the historiography and by witnesses who have LIED? For example. If there were masses of human remains found on the "surface" as you say, how can your Believer Buddies make the claim the Germans "destroyed" all the evidence? Where was this evidence in court? How do you know this is "Holocaust" related or that the remains belong to Jews? You have no evidence, you have no argument. Demanding revisionist "justify" ourselves when you have so little on the table is rather funny don't you think?

Your attempt to play the game started by Pressac, the "convergence of evidence" nonsense, is laughable. Attributing mundane facts to sinister intentions in order to get the result you want is not history, and definitely isn't the truth.

I showed that all of the specific material facts required a dual interpretation of relatively mundane facts, e.g. transports, selections, showers, shaving hair, Zyklon B, crematoria, etc., all real and all relatively mundane, had been given a second interpretation

[...]

What we are offered in evidence was gathered after the war, in trials. The evidence is almost all oral testimony and “confessions.” Without the evidence of these trials there would be no significant evidence of “extermination.” One must pause and ponder this carefully. Were trials needed to determine that the Battle of Waterloo happened? The bombings of Hamburg, Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki? The slaughter in Cambodia?

Yet this three year program, of continental scope, claiming millions of victims, required trials to argue its reality. [...] Such events cannot happen without generating commensurate evidence for their reality, just as a great forest fire cannot take place without producing smoke. One may as well believe that New York City was burned down, if confessions to the deed can be produced

Arthur Butz, The Hoax of the Twentieth Century (Castle Hill Publishers, 2015), Pp. 12, 24

If you wanted to debate a point, you would follow the rules and make separate threads on the topics you wish to discuss, not claim your threads were removed maliciously and harp on such an unverifiable claim. If you followed the rules, you could prove that you were being targeted in some way - like taking screenshots - but instead of debating the Holocaust you launch into threads talking about being persecuted. Typical Jewish behaviour.

[Lamprecht]

YOU CANNOT, YOU HAVE FAILED.

He has not failed yet, give him a chance. Maybe he can contact Mitchell and convince him to produce the "vital evidence [of Treblinka mass graves] to prove the deniers wrong" that he has been bragging about, see: viewtopic.php?t=13050

I had no luck when contacting Mitchell; I tried three different emails with different approaches and he ignored all of my requests. If the guy really does have "vital evidence" of massive quantities of human remains at Treblinka that can "prove the deniers wrong" then he's sitting on it for some weird reason. The only excuse I have found in the literature to withhold photographs of human remains in mass graves is to not incite ethnic strife over past grievances. This sort of situation is discussed in one of the articles I posted in: viewtopic.php?t=12889

I vaguely remember reading about it but I forget which article it was in. The idea is that if archaeologists encounter a mass grave in some war-torn developing country, they don't want to publish photos of the human remains as it might result in pissing off local civilians. These civilians, after seeing the photos, might grab their machetes and/or AK-47s and go on some murderous rampage as revenge for past tribal conflicts.

This argument for withholding photographic evidence of human remains does make sense, but it would not apply to the Holocaust "extermination camp" mass graves because:
1 - The alleged mass murders at these sites in the 1940s are "confirmed fact" that cannot be disputed, legally, in Poland, where these AR camps are located
2 - Jews, if shown photographs of human remains at these "pure extermination camps," aren't going to grab their machetes and pitchforks to go commit a massacre of Germans in retaliation. They already believe that this stuff happened back in the 1940s.
3 - The Germans believe that it happened, they can't even legally declare that it didn't happen without being charged with a hate crime and imprisoned. The Germans (and others) continue to pay reparations for this alleged extermination policy.

As of now, I have posted more photographic evidence of human remains at Treblinka, Sobibor, and Belzec than NFrNJ has. Refer to the thread I just posted yesterday on Treblinka:
Photographs of mass graves from "Extermination camp" Treblinka II
viewtopic.php?t=13692

And for Sobibor:
Sobibor "Archaeological excavation" report(s) of 2014 and 2015 - no photographs of human remains, when will we see them?
viewtopic.php?t=12901

I had that Treblinka thread sitting around as a draft for a while, but I decided to post it yesterday since NFrNJ decided to bless us with his presence and make all sorts of baseless claims about massive quantities of human remains at Treblinka. There may be additional photographs of human remains at Treblinka that I did not post in that thread; what you see is from where I left off a few months ago when I first decided to make that thread. If I find more photos I will post them and I implore anyone else to do the same. Hopefully that thread can act as a repository for every single photograph of human remains associated with Treblinka.

This is getting off-topic though. NFrNJ has been challenged in this thread to prove that "Final Solution" was a policy of extermination. In the other thread he was challenged to show the human remains:

Challenge to Believer NFrNJ to Show us the Claimed Gigantic Human Remains said to Exist in Known Locations
viewtopic.php?t=13095

I hope the moderator is lenient and allows this guy to post what he has; moving it to the correct thread or making a new one if necessary.

NFrNJ - have you spoken to Mitchell? Maybe he will email you the "vital evidence [of Treblinka mass graves] to prove the deniers wrong"

[Moderator]

Lamprecht:

I hope the moderator is lenient and allows this guy to post what he has; moving it to the correct thread or making a new one if necessary.

No worries, I'll take care of it. I'm sure we're all curious to see what he comes up with.
M1