NEW Considerations on Treblinka and the AR Camps

[Hektor]

Can you define what is meant by the word 'camp' please?

Seems to me there cannot have been all these 'camps', up to 20,000 were claimed right across Europe for the whole war period. A 'camp' in most people's eyes would be a semi permanent location with fences, security, living quarters etc. such as in Dachau as a good example. My guess is the word 'camp' has been used and overused by the holocaust industry to imply and convey the scale of evil as they see it.

Indeed I guess that camp includes anything with accommodation during that period. Those aren't only camps in the 'concentration camp' sense. But simply housing units that may be guarded or not.

Another means to inflate the figure of camps is to count all fenced units where there was a concentration camp. That would then include subcamps for example. Auschwitz alone had several. And it seems this applied to other camps as well.

[Butterfangers]

Can you define what is meant by the word 'camp' please?

Seems to me there cannot have been all these 'camps', up to 20,000 were claimed right across Europe for the whole war period. A 'camp' in most people's eyes would be a semi permanent location with fences, security, living quarters etc. such as in Dachau as a good example. My guess is the word 'camp' has been used and overused by the holocaust industry to imply and convey the scale of evil as they see it.

I would defer this to those who have been gathering the data (translated from German, emph. mine):

To the project (Translation in English coming soon)

By Bettina Sarnes, Holger Sarnes
1996 to 2009: Creation of the project

In connection with the development of alternative ways of commemorating and remembering, the artist Sigrid Sigurdsson found out in 1996 that there was no comprehensive overview map listing all the Nazi crime sites. Furthermore, it became clear that there were immense knowledge gaps with regard to the camp and detention center system. Even if many of the camps and places of injustice were known to relevant research, little was known about the living conditions in them. Sigrid Sigurdsson then commissioned the historian Cornelia Steinhauer to create an overview map on which all places of injustice were to be marked. For the first time, a picture emerged that, based on the available specialist literature, visualized the gigantic extent of the persecution and extermination. At the same time, the project also included the idea of tendering a research contract, which resulted in the participation of relevant scientific institutions in the project.

The Karl Ernst Osthaus Museum, headed by Prof. Dr. Michael Fehr on. Museum employees took over the creation of a database, which was initially only intended to function as an index for the map. The result, a map of Germany with approx. 2000 markings and a corresponding register, was first shown in Braunschweig in 1998 as part of the exhibition "Braunschweig - a city in Germany remembers" and in early 1999 in the Karl Ernst Osthaus Museum in Hagen as part of the exhibition "Sigrid Sigurdsson - The Architecture of Remembrance / Germany - a monument - a research assignment" was shown and published.[1] However, the need for a comprehensive revision and supplementation soon became apparent. The possibility of making the project accessible to a broader public via publication on the Internet, but also the technical possibilities of dynamic image generation seemed suitable for transporting the character of the "Open Archives" set up by Sigrid Sigurdsson in other contexts in a new medium.[ 2] And so a historical map of Germany in the borders of 1941 was scanned and divided into detailed maps. In connection with a newly designed database, a comprehensive set of maps was created, which shows the individual locations of the persecution in detail and also enables various overviews of the complexity of the camp system on the basis of overview maps. Under the title "Germany - a monument - a research assignment. 1996 to ...” the project has been freely accessible to the general public since 2000, both in various exhibitions and on the Internet. Since then, it has drawn attention to the many forced camps in which the prisoners had to do slave labor under concentration camp-like conditions. References to the relevant research literature enable a closer look at the respective location. In addition, the project makes it clear that - in contrast to the concentration and extermination camps - some camp types have slipped out of the public eye.

The further development since 2009

In the version published up to 2009, the database was largely based on the complete list of "places of detention under the Reichsfuhrer SS (1933-1945) published by the International Tracing Service (ITS) in Arolsen.[3] This was created with the help of the ITS and by the Federal Minister of Justice to facilitate evidence The "List of concentration camps and their external work details"[4] published in the Federal Law Gazette for applications for compensation for imprisonment under the Federal Compensation Act of 1977 and 1982 was also incorporated into the database. In addition, more recent research literature was also taken into account in many cases. Many monographs were published on the concentration camps and their satellite camps, publications on parts of the camp system, on individual countries or locations.
In 2009, the presentation was revised again, which, in addition to the introduction of an English-language version, also included the conversion of all place names in Eastern Europe to diacritics, which enormously improves the search options for foreign visitors to the site. The content of the database has also been updated: since the project began in 1996, research has been making intensive efforts to process the storage system. Against the background of the abundance of literature that has appeared recently, a selection had to be made and the related sources limited to a few titles. The nine-volume series "The Site of Terror. History of the National Socialist Concentration Camps[5]" edited by Wolfgang Benz and Barbara Distel provides a comprehensive overview of the National Socialist camp system, which has been able to close many of the previously existing knowledge gaps. In its location entries, the database refers to the respective volumes of this meritorious series.

Since the Osthaus Museum Hagen reopened in 2009, the work has been integrated into the "Architecture of Memory" room designed by Sigrid Sigurdsson in the Osthaus Museum Hagen. In terms of content and form, it is linked to the Dr. Martina Pottek and Dr. Nils Reschke developed academic reference libraries on the topics of 'National Socialism' and 'Memory and Remembrance'.

The project has been continued since the summer of 2011 by the two long-standing employees Bettina and Holger Sarnes. Over the course of time, it has developed into a permanent reference with regard to the processing of the National Socialist camp system. As the numerous inquiries, comments and corrections that the project has received since its inception prove, the database and map series are still being actively used by private individuals, in political education work and by relevant scientific institutions. Both the data compiled in compressed form for the first time in the database and the visualization of the development of the camp system using the map material still represent a unique source - as evidenced not least by the fact that the database has been used by the Federal Ministry of the Interior since 2007 as an aid to determining compensation payments former persecutees of the Third Reich is used. In addition, since October 1999 the work has been on display in the permanent exhibition “Documentation Obersalzberg. A permanent exhibition of the Institute for Contemporary History, Munich - Berlin" in Berchtesgarden.

The content of the work has been constantly supplemented and expanded since February 2012 and can now be viewed online again. The expansion of the online version, the further translation, revision and development of the data is subject to constant change as a work in progress, following the process initiated by Sigrid Sigurdsson.

http://www.deutschland-ein-denkmal.de/d ... e=text-002

[Nazgul]

Can you define what is meant by the word 'camp' please?

There is some confusion about what is regarded as Zwangarbeitslager für Juden and ghettos. Some Soviet sources have defined all places where Jews resided as ghettos. There is also some overlap between the concept of ghetto and labour camp. Ghettos contained entire family units whereas Zwangargeitslager contained Jews of working age only who are able to work. Labour camps are located close to the places of work often some distance from the nearest ghetto.

Jewish camps had the following names:

• Arbeitslager (labour camp)
• Zwangarbeitslager ( forced labour camp)
• Judenlager (camp for Jews)
• Sammellager (collective camp)
• Einsatslager (camp for certain tasks)
• Verwaltungarbeitslager (Administrative camp)

Labour camps were not konzentrationslager with barbed wire and electric fences, though some might have been contained within such a place. Birkenau had a series of labour camps attached to it. Labour camps were often poorly staffed.

At one of the Belzec labour camps, there were 4 guards for 4 thousand Jewish workers who were digging trenches over a 6 km distance.
Three did escape across into Russian territory and promptly shot by the Soviet Border Patrol.

Miss X a Jewish girl described the conditions in her labour camp:

We were made to dig fortifications, but supervision was rather lax and we did not overwork ourselves. Our accommodation, first in a barn, later on the dance floor of a country inn, was primitive, the food bad and insufficient, and the sanitary arrangements shocking. Our guards, uniformed members of the Organisation Todt were unpleasant, but there was no physical violence. Frequent beatings, however, occurred in the men’s camp near-by, as we learnt from the men when we met them at work. Our daily roll calls were perfunctory, and some of us went several times secretly to Breslau for a day. We did not try to escape altogether, as we feared that reprisals would be taken against those left behind. Miss X, organization Todt

[Nazgul]

Please share here any issues/problems that you find.

The work you have done on that map is deeply appreciated. Martin Dean has done some work on labour camps in the Ukraine. I will summarize his work, but it is well worth the read. It is clear that some of the Jewish workers were treated badly, murdered by the guards.

Martin Dean has found 120 Zwangarbeitslager für Juden in the Ukraine. Some were "Transit Highway IV" road construction camps. Some camps were involved in bridge construction. Camps were established for "agriculture, peat-digging, forestry, lumber, and for skilled craftsmen".

Just these camps alone involved using the labour of thousands of able bodied Jews, men and women. These camps have been overlook ed in the historiography. The reason is due to small sizes and lack of German documents. Martin Dean compiled his evidence from witness statements. It is probable that this work scratches the surface of the true magnitude of Jewish Labour Camps in Ostland and the Ukraine.

Ulrich Herbert (University of Freiburg), Forced Laborers in the Third Reich: An Overview pdf link has stated there were only 50 000 Jewish workers (p8). His work is a genuine appraisal of the situation but hampered by lack of knowledge of the true extent of Jewish labour, especially in Ostland and Ukraine.

Forced labor camps for Jews in the Rivne region.

Historian Alexander Kruglov has described the conditions in the camps along the DG IV in the Vinnytsia region in 1942–1943. The Jewish forced laborers were accommodated in improvised camps, such as stables and other sheds designed for cattle, school buildings, or a former synagogue. They were fed mainly a pea or potato soup, supplemented with a little millet or horse flesh.

A network of similar forced labor camps for Jews existed also in the Dniprpetrovsk region along the road from Kryvyi Rih to Dnipro.

Forced labor camps for Jews in the Dniprpetrovsk region.

These camps existed from around May 1942 until the end of 1942 or early in 1943.

Forced labor camps for Jews in the Cherkasy region.

Forced labor camps for Jews in the Volyn region.

Forced labor camps for Jews in Brest region (part of Gk Volhynia-Podolia in 1941–1944).

The number of Jews in each of these camps ranged from around a dozen to 1000 or more, such that the total number held in all 120 camps probably exceeded 15,000 people

Corresponding author: Martin Christopher Dean, Institute for Interdisciplinary Studies, Babyn Yar Holocaust Memorial Center, 12 Bolling Lane, Bethesda, MD, 20817, USA, E-mail: [email protected]

[Butterfangers]

I updated the map to remove the incorrect Dworez location (was in Russia) to its correct place (Dvoritz, Ukraine). I also added [green] markers which indicate the mapped sites shown in the Dean, M. (2022) study referenced by Nazgul, above. The description for each includes the number of sites as shown in the maps from this study, and the study's URL.

Here's the (revised) map: https://www.mapcustomizer.com/map/Zwang ... ndUkraine2

Snapshot:

There is still some fine-tuning to be done, no doubt, but one of the locations that stands out to me is the Oivari camp... It is said to be located in Generalbezirk Estland (Estonia) but there is no "Oivari" there that I can find... however, "right across the pond" (in Finland), there is an Oivari right near the coast (see map, very top)... Of course, Finland was an ally of Germany for most of the war. Were Jews sent there to do labor? Or is there an Oivari somewhere in Estonia that I missed?

Here is what I entered into the "Bulk Entry" module this time around:

Aseri, Estonia {4031}
Bačiūnai, Lithuania {4056, 4057} <green>
Baranovichi, Belarus {4109, 4108, 4110} <green>
Baltoji Vokė, Lithuania {4058, 4059} <green>
Misa, Latvia {4153, 4152, 4039 -- 4032 and 4147 are Bisa, "presumably Misa"} <green>
Babruysk, Belarus {4111}
Barysaw, Belarus {4112, 4113} <green>
Kmeliauka, Lithuania {4138}
Daugavpils, Latvia {4033, 4148} <green>
Daugėliai, Lithuania {4060}
Dimitravas, Lithuania {4061}
Staniūnai, Lithuania {4062}
Dūkštas, Lithuania {4063}
Dvirets, Ukraine {4114, 4115} <green>
Gavieze, Latvia {4149, 4034} <green>
Hantsavichy, Belarus {4116}
Vievis, Lithuania {4067, 4068} <green>
Zaozernoe, Russia {4066, 4065} <green>
Kalēti, Latvia {4036, 4150} <green>
Kazlų Rūda, Lithuania {4069, 4070} <green>
Kärstna, Estonia {4037}
Kniahinin, Belarus {4118, 4117} <green>
Baranovichi, Belarus {4120, 4119; Koldychevo, mapped as Baranovichi for nearest mappable area} <green>
Kostopil', Rivne Oblast, Ukraine {4139}
Krasnoye, Belarus {4121}
Kūdupe, Latvia {4151, 4038} <green>
Kudłaczewo, 19-222, Poland {4122}
Lida, Belarus {4123}
Linkaiciai, Lithuania {4072, 4073} <green>
Lutsk, Volyn Oblast, Ukraine {4140}
Linkmenys, Lithuania {4074}
Staniūnai, Lithuania {4076, 4075} <green>
Minsk, Belarus {4125, 4124} <green>
Mogilev, Belarus {4126, 4127} <green>
Mokrovo, Belarus {4041, 4040} <green>
Nemenčinė, Lithuania {4077}
Navahrudak, Belarus {4129, 4128} <green>
Świerżeń Nowy, Belarus {4130, 4131} <green>
Kirkkonummi, Finland {4042; Oivari, mapped as Kirkkonummi for nearest mappable area}
Akmenė, Lithuania {4078}
Valkininkai, Lithuania {4079}
Orany, Ukraine {4080}
Palemonas, Kaunas, Lithuania {4081, 4082} <green>
Pavenčiai, Kuršėnai, Lithuania {4083}
Jelonka, Poland {4141; est. location of Pereweredow but uncertain}
Pechory, Pskov Oblast, Russia {4043, 4044} <green>
Pskov, Pskov Oblast, Russia {4045, 4046} <green>
Pabradė, Lithuania {4084}
Panevėžys, Lithuania {4087, 4086} <green>
Vilnius International Airport {4088; Porubanek est. location}
Puski, Estonia {4047}
Pravieniškės, Lithuania {4090, 4089} <green>
Prienai, Prienai District Municipality, Lithuania {4091}
Radaškovičy, Belarus {4132, 4133} <green>
Radviliškis, Lithuania {4092}
Rakvere, Estonia {4053}
Tallinn, Estonia {4048}
Roja, Latvia {4154, 4049} <green>
Riešė, Vilnius District Municipality, Lithuania {4094, 4095} <green>
Saku, Estonia {4050}
Žiežmariai, Lithuania {4097, 4096} <green>
Slonim, Belarus {4134}
Smolensk, Smolensk Oblast, Russia {4135, 4142, 4143; includes Smolno} <green>
Smordva, Rivne Oblast, Ukraine, 35160 {4144}
Sonda, Estonia {4051}
Suchowola, Poland {4145}
Zemgale, Rīga, Latvia {4155, 4052} <green>
Troki, Belarus {4098}
Уша, Belarus {4136}
Vilnius, Lithuania {4103, 4101, 4102, 4100; includes Wieliczany with its precise location unknown} <green>
Viduklė, Lithuania {4099}
Vinnytsia, Vinnytsia Oblast, Ukraine, 21000 {4146}
Kohtla-Järve, Estonia {4054, 4055; Wiwikond} <green>
Užtilčiai, Lithuania {4106; Zaczepka}
Zokniai, Lithuania {4107}
Brest, Belarus {4137}
Rivne, Ukraine {Approx. site of at least ten (10) camps, per Dean, M. (2022), see: https://doi.org/10.1515/eehs-2022-0002} <green>
Kryvyi Rih, Ukraine {Approx. site of at least nine (9) camps, per Dean, M. (2022), see: https://doi.org/10.1515/eehs-2022-0002} <green>
Uman', Ukraine {Approx. site of at least 20 camps, per Dean, M. (2022), see: https://doi.org/10.1515/eehs-2022-0002} <green>
Kovel', Ukraine {Approx. site of at least 15 camps, per Dean, M. (2022), see: https://doi.org/10.1515/eehs-2022-0002} <green>
Teĺmy-1, Belarus {Approx. site of at least 12 camps, per Dean, M. (2022), see: https://doi.org/10.1515/eehs-2022-0002} <green>

[Lamprecht]

Is there a map of internment (non-labor) camps east of Treblinka, Sobibor, and Belzec? The default argument will be that the only ones put on trains destined for these 3 camps that were not gassed on arrival were fit to work, and theoretically could have been let off at one of the labor camp stops on the way. So what about the ones that could not work?

[Butterfangers]

I just came across this map of the scheme of the railways of the USSR as of 1941. It seems... useful.

Higher resolution available here: http://users.tpg.com.au/adslbam9/Railways1941.png

[Nazgul]

Is there a map of internment (non-labor) camps east of Treblinka, Sobibor, and Belzec? The default argument will be that the only ones put on trains destined for these 3 camps that were not gassed on arrival were fit to work, and theoretically could have been let off at one of the labor camp stops on the way. So what about the ones that could not work?

Thanks Lamprecht, you are well aware of the policy known as Aktion 14f13, the invalid euthanasia policy. This applied to everyone not just Jews. It is clear at Sobibor camp this Aktion took place. 14f13 claimed about 20 thousand victims. Everything I have read about the selection process seems to refer to this. It could well be that this legal requirement has been exaggerated. This is another topic and so I will not put much more into it.

In the Sobibor camps even the children worked. I have written about these Sobibor camps...here.

There is no documentary evidence of mass arrivals at the train station Treblinka, but obviously people arrived as there was a Labour camp and Marian Olszuk saw people, Jews bartering at TII camp location. As you said, it would be unlikely that unfit people would travel East; I doubt they would survive long in the rather harsh conditions of the living and work environment.

[Lamprecht]

I just came across this map of the scheme of the railways of the USSR as of 1941. It seems... useful.

Railways1941 d.jpg

Higher resolution available here: http://users.tpg.com.au/adslbam9/Railways1941.png

Yes, I posted it here, also with labels: viewtopic.php?p=107146#p107146

Is there a map of internment (non-labor) camps east of Treblinka, Sobibor, and Belzec? The default argument will be that the only ones put on trains destined for these 3 camps that were not gassed on arrival were fit to work, and theoretically could have been let off at one of the labor camp stops on the way. So what about the ones that could not work?

Thanks Lamprecht, you are well aware of the policy known as Aktion 14f13, the invalid euthanasia policy. This applied to everyone not just Jews. It is clear at Sobibor camp this Aktion took place. 14f13 claimed about 20 thousand victims. Everything I have read about the selection process seems to refer to this. It could well be that this legal requirement has been exaggerated. This is another topic and so I will not put much more into it.

In the Sobibor camps even the children worked. I have written about these Sobibor camps...here.

There is no documentary evidence of mass arrivals at the train station Treblinka, but obviously people arrived as there was a Labour camp and Marian Olszuk saw people, Jews bartering at TII camp location. As you said, it would be unlikely that unfit people would travel East; I doubt they would survive long in the rather harsh conditions of the living and work environment.

In the 17 March 1942 note by Fritz Reuter: https://archive.vn/g3FbN
Point 2:
"Unfit Jews all come to Belzec, the outermost border station in the Zamosc district."
Point 6:
"...those who were not able to work could be sorted out and sent to Belzec...
He [Höfle] concluded that he could take 4 - 5 transports to 1,000 Jews a day with the Belzec destination. These Jews would cross the border and never return to the General Government."

Doesn't this make sense only in the context of Jews unable to work were meant to be transferred east? As I stated in the first post in this thread, the database includes a map of the Reich with dots for each camp, but it does not include any dots for camps in the eastern territories. The map is limited.
However, there were large numbers of Jew ghettos to the east of these camps:





You can see multiple ghettos very close to these camps.

From a recent post: viewtopic.php?p=107146#p107146


Soviet railway system at that time. Belzec is situated in the top left. Other maps can be found in the post linked.

There are also the reports of resettlement trains to Belzec. Here, Kolomea -> Belzec (Sept 1942): viewtopic.php?t=12910

The image included:


In the reports there were multiple stops, with the train being repaired because Jews kept causing damage in their attempts to escape. The reports also describe Jews being put on the train at some of these stops, as well as Jews being taken off for use in labor camps.
Also, "300 Jews – old and weak, ill, frail, and no longer transportable were executed."

It seems unlikely that the Jews put on these trains had only 2 major outcomes:
1. Sent to a labor camp, stop on the way
2. Euthanized on arrival

What makes more sense to me: Jews were put on trains with destination Belzec (or Treblinka, Sobibor...) and there were multiple stops on the way. If they were so sick/frail that the could not get on the train easily, they were euthanized. If labor was needed at one of the stops, some of the Jews on the train would get off to be used for labor there.
If they ended up making it to the camp, they would take showers. If they were seriously ill/disabled they would be euthanized. Otherwise, they would be sent off to a labor camp, internment camp, or ghetto depending on their physical form / labor abilities.

It is not necessary that they were actually sent off into the eastern territories. If the [eventual] goal was to mass-resettle Jews into the eastern territories, it would make sense to collect them in ghettos around this area as a temporary measure. These camps are right at the western tip of the Soviet railway system. See:



Consider Korherr's statement in 1977, that these Jews were "settled in the Lublin district."
Obviously the Third Reich's, whatever they were, didn't go through because the war was lost.

Belzec and "transit camp Sobibor" were set up in the first half of 1942. In July 1943, Himmler requests:
"The transit camp (Durchgangslager) Sobibór is to be converted into a concentration camp. In the concentration camp a plant for the repair of captured munitions is to be established."

The next month (August 1943) the loss of the Battle of Kursk caused the war to be seen as completely unwinnable. Territory was already being lost rapidly since February 1943, after defeat at the Battle of Stalingrad. The Soviets "Liberated" the Lublin district in mid-1944, a year before the German surrender, so they had ample time to do whatever they wanted with any Jews living there (or further east).

[PrudentRegret]

This document has been discussed before including by Mattogno etc., but it's worth pointing out that Eberl's letter identifies the "Work Camp Treblinka" under construction in July 1942.



The hypothesis discussed in this thread allows for a direct reading of this document, identifying that camp as a work camp (arbeitslager).

[Butterfangers]

Yes, I posted it here, also with labels: viewtopic.php?p=107146#p107146

I was able to respond, some of it might be relevant to this thread as well: viewtopic.php?p=107146#p107201

[Butterfangers]

Here's the (revised) map: https://www.mapcustomizer.com/map/Zwang ... ndUkraine2

I have archived the complete lists (detailed) for Zwangsarbeitslager for Jews (as of Jan. 2023), per deutschland-ein-denkmal.de, below. Each set is alphabetized. There were far too many in the "Various Locations" category to display on a single page (it includes all of Reichsgebiet, "Reichsgau Wartheland", "Reichsgau Sudetenland", "Generalgouvernement", Schlesien...), so I broke that one into quarters:

Zwangsarbeitslager for Jews in "Reichskommissariat Ostland": https://archive.is/Y1IUO

Zwangsarbeitslager for Jews in Österreich: https://archive.is/Gd3fe

Zwangsarbeitslager for Jews in Various Locations (A-G): https://archive.is/fTYhS
Zwangsarbeitslager for Jews in Various Locations (G-L): https://archive.is/6dh7h
Zwangsarbeitslager for Jews in Various Locations (L-S): https://archive.is/IFhJj
Zwangsarbeitslager for Jews in Various Locations (S-Z): https://archive.is/MPVL5

These are useful to compare to the maps already provided (such as the one linked in the quote above for "Reichskommissariat Ostland"); they may include additional information (e.g. type of work, opening-closing dates, age group (adults or children) or sex of prisoners) for each of the camps.

The "ID number" for the RK Ostland camps corresponds to those plotted on the map (use Ctrl+F for quick-finding on the list).

If anyone is interested in or has been doing research on these mapped sites and/or is willing to assist in identifying errors with the locations plotted on the map linked above, it is much appreciated. Please share any findings.

[Hektor]

Any camps East of Poland conflict with the narrative that the Einsatzgruppen exterminated all the Jews there. If they assume it happened... It would require that Western Jews are to be resettled there. And that conflicts with the notion that they were gassed.

[Nazgul]

Any camps East of Poland conflict with the narrative that the Einsatzgruppen exterminated all the Jews there. If they assume it happened... It would require that Western Jews are to be resettled there. And that conflicts with the notion that they were gassed.

My understanding is that Einsatz and related groups were after terrorists. Over a million German Soldiers had been murdered by these groups so any civilian aiding partisans took it for their team.

[Butterfangers]

RK Ostland map revised to add locations of AR camps: https://www.mapcustomizer.com/map/Zwang ... ndUkraine3